The Blade of Caliban: Another look

[FerociousBeast]

You're asking the wrong question.

 

Since the codex has been released, feedback on the Blade of Caliban has been universally negative, but I think another take is in order. There are some obvious comparisons that have been made which show the BoC in a pretty unfavorable light, but I think discussion so far has missed the point.

 

The real question is not whether the BoC is as good as a power axe. (It isn't.) It's not whether the BoC is as good as a power sword. (Depends.) It's not even whether the BoC itself is any good at all... although bear with me for a moment, because I'm going to briefly address this question anyway.

 

The first thought everyone has when reading the BoC's rules for the first time is, "It's like an AP3 power axe... golly gee?" Then they see the cost of 15 points in the (power armor) Command Squad's options and think, "And it's not even discounted." But, in fact, it is discounted. Take a look at the Ravenwing Command Squad entry and the Ravenwing Black Knights entry and compare the Champion's cost with the cost to upgrade the Huntmaster's corvus hammer to a power weapon. 5 points versus 12 points. Since we know the long standing cost of a power weapon is 15 points, that means the corvus hammer is worth 3 points. Since it costs 5 points to upgrade the hammer to a BoC, that means the BoC is worth 8 points.

 

8 points. "Today, for One Codex Only, get your power weapon for 50% off! Buy now! For the Emperor!" 8 points for a slightly gimped power weapon is a Good Deal.

 

But as I said before, the question is not whether or not the Blade of Caliban is any good. Yeah, it's a good deal, but who cares. The only way you can get a Blade of Caliban is if you upgrade a model to a champion.  So the only question that matters is:

 

"Is upgrading a Black Knight or Dark Angel Veteran to a Champion worth while?"

 

Let's take a look. When you upgrade a DA vet to Champion, you get the BoC, a combat shield, WS5, and the Character unit type for 15 points. You lose a chainsword. This would be a no brainer upgrade if you don't take into account the BoC. You hit WS4 on 3s; you can issue challenges, which can be used to take some heavy hitters out of a combat (and therefore protect your standard bearer); you can receive challenges, which means you can either free up an attached HQ to continue putting the hurt on the enemy squad or (less importantly) you can protect your Apothecary from challenges.

 

But now let's take into account the BoC. Well, you still hit WS4 on 3s, you can still issue challenges, you can still receive challenges. It's still a no-brainer. We also now have the option of wounding T4 on 3s.

 

But the champion is easier to kill in challenges! you say. True, but it's not as big a factor as you might think. Who do you typically face in challenges? HQ characters and Sergeants. But most HQ characters you're going to face--certainly the most vicious--will already be hitting at a higher Initiative, so Unwieldy literally has no effect in such situations. Instead, you've got, effectively, a +1S power sword. No downside. Meanwhile, the WS5 means a lot of those HQs will be hitting on 4 instead of 3.

 

Challenges from Sergeant-equivalents are more of a mixed bag. When the Sergeant is the most common initiative of I4, you might not get to swing at them whereas you would have before. However, this doesn't effect your survivability, just whether or not you're able to kill the guy who just killed you. The real danger that the BoC presents is against models armed with Power Fists/Klaws. While you're more likely to kill them with your WS5 and +1S, they're also more likely to kill you since you both hit at I1.

 

I wanted to discuss the Champion upgrade for the Ravenwing Command Squad as well, but this has gone on long enough, so I'll write that one up later in this thread.

 

In summary, tl;dr, criticism of the Blade of Caliban thus far has been short-sighted (as well as often inaccurate, since the BoC only costs 8 points). Critiquing the BoC itself, in a vacuum, is pointless and misleading since it's only ever fielded as part of a Champion upgrade. So the real question is, is the Champion upgrade worth it? And the answer, for the Power Armor Company Command, anyway, is Yes! You get an additional character who can issue or receive challenges; you get WS5 and S5 in all combats (whether a challenge has been issued or not); and the Unwieldy penalty isn't going to matter much in many of the challenges you do fight in.

 

Bottom line: Upgrade a Veteran to the Company Champion in Company Command Squads.

[MarshalHelva]

I essentially came to the same conclusion when I was debating on whether i should upgrade my command squad with a champ or just buy a power weapon. The character upgrade and the WS5 are alone worth it. I am taking Azrael in the command squad so the combat shield didn't really matter. The best use of the champion in my eyes is to tie up a fighty character for a turn and let your own HQ carve up some infantry. If he actually wounds the HQ then that is just icing on the cake for me and just makes the job all the easier for my HQ to finish him off.

[the jeske]

It is a fluff thing . The DT way of thinking went this way. DA are knights . Knights dont use ax  , they use swords or maces [+axs are a SW thing so we wont make DA ax models] . but ax are good , what do ? lets make "power swords" with rules like power ax. this way DA players wont have problems with using swords and getting ax rules .

[cypherthefallenangel]

I hear what you're saying but I'm still on the side of the fence that thinks boc it is total crap. the Apothecary is a character and if you deny the challenge he can sit out and still give fnp to the squad. as for the standard bearer. if you're spending the points on an expensive banner and this squad is getting into close combat, you're doing something wrong.

[Brother dean]

The DW banner is +1A...  If you dont get into combat you are wasting it?  The shooty banner doesnt work on storm bolters.. 

[FerociousBeast]

Since some of the banners directly aid Dark Angels in close combat, I think that assertion is highly debatable. Furthermore, one of the primary reasons you take a Command Squad is, surprise surprise, to accompany an HQ into combat.

[cypherthefallenangel]

The OP was about the blade of caliban. DW can't take have one so I wasn't inferring them in my comment. I was talking about ravenwing and PA command squads. They are the only ones that can take the blade of crap. Personally I would rather pay the 7 points and get a real power weapon.

@FB.

the chapter banner and Dwing comp. banner are close combat orientated. not the sacred banners. The sacred banners are the only reason I would take a non deathwing command squad. Vets, black knights and terminators make way better escorts for your hqs.

[Diavlo]

The thing is that when I call someone a Champion. I want him to be good in fight and good in challanges. The best of the best melee fighters.

What we have here is a village dumb that is ellected to be champion just to die from enemy sergeant.

 

- Who is your champion I challange him

"bunch of DA's pushing poor guy ahead, someone gave him too big sword and buckler that they have glued to his hands"

- here it is - they laugh

 

I don't want cheap option, I want good option.

I don't want someone that is cannon fodder and I call him champion.

I don't want champion that won't swing his sword in 5/6 of challanges

I still think that its some kind of error like it was with belial halo and Nephilims missile lock. It was supposed to be two handed or something I don't know.

[FerociousBeast]

Not to belabor the point, but the OP was about how the Blade of Caliban isn't the question, it's whether or not the champion is a worthwhile upgrade. And I firmly believe that it is, for the Greenwing Command Squad anyway.

 

However, the title of the thread does have Blade of Caliban in it, and comparisons to the Power Weapons are unavoidable, so here is some math to go along with my first post.

 

BoC = Character w/ WS5, Blade of Caliban, Combat Shield, Power Armor, Bolt Pistol

Axe = Veteran w/ WS4, Power Axe, Power Armor, Bolt Pistol

Fist = Veteran w/ WS4, Power Fist, Power Armor, Bolt Pistol

Sword = Veteran w/ WS4, Power Sword, Power Armor, Bolt Pistol

 

Damage Potential of Weapon Loadouts

All math assumes model survives to its initiative step. 

Key: Weapon Loadout - Odds of hitting x Odds of wounding x Odds of beating armor/inv save = Odds of wound (Number of wounds, calculated by Odds of wound x Number of attacks)

 

Versus WS4, T4, 3-6+ (MEQ, Necrons)

BoC - 2/3 x 2/3 x 1 = 4/9 = 44% (1.32)

Axe - 1/2 x 2/3 x 1 = 2/6 = 33% (1)

Fist - 1/2 x 5/6 x 1 = 5/12 = 42% (0.84)

Sword - 1/2 x 1/2 x 1 = 1/4 = 25% (0.75)

 

Versus WS4, T4, 2+/5+ (Terminators)

BoC - 2/3 x 2/3 x 1/6 = 4/54 = 7% (0.21)

Axe - 1/2 x 2/3 x 2/3 = 4/18 = 22% (0.66)

Fist - 1/2 x 5/6 x 2/3 = 10/36 = 28% (0.56)

Sword - 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/6 = 1/24 = 4% (0.12)

 

Versus WS5, T4, 3+/4+ (MEQ HQs)

BoC - 1/2 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 2/12 = 17% (0.51)

Axe - 1/2 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 2/12 = 17% (0.51)

Fist - 1/2 x 5/6 x 1/2 = 5/24 = 21% (0.42)

Sword - 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/8 = 13% (0.39)

 

Versus WS4, T3, 3-6+ (Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids [who, incidentally, are likely to hit at I5 or better])

BoC - 2/3 x 5/6 x 1 = 10/15 = 67% (2)

Axe - 1/2 x 5/6 x 1 = 5/12 = 42% (1.26)

Fist - 1/2 x 5/6 x 1 = 5/12 = 42% (0.84)

Sword - 1/2 x 2/3 x 1 = 2/6 = 33% (1)

 

I'll run some survivability numbers later.

[Brother Immolator]

If we make the assumption that the champion survives the initiative step and comes to swing the thing, then the whole point of this discussion is irrelevant.

The Whole point is whether the upgrade of the champion is worth it. Most advocate that you spend points to get a character,a quazy axe, an increase in the WS and a combat shield.

 

All I see is a wound, and a throw away at that. Not only is the wound a throw away but it doesnt allow the officer accompanying the command squad to kill the chalenger (because he duels vs a wound/champion). All it allows is a turn at best of said officer to butcher the enemy squad till the champion is killed. If the champion miraculusly (by way of the dispicable inv save or bad rolling) survives It keeps the enemy char occupied for another turn, but that is so far that luck can hold him. There is a reason ppl dont use axes and fists on their characters anymore.

 

It boils down whether one wants two more (three on the charge) swings with increased chances to wound and hit AFTER the enemy struck at the squad. Which at times is a bad thing at others it might save something. I for one am a pragmatist and dont bet on this been an error and faqed. When they slapped that rule in there they knew what they did. They knew what they did when they removed it from the Halberd too. Or will that be FAQED too, since the Halberd is a glorified power axe? I am sorry but I just dont see either happening.

 

Now if only he had access to a storm shield that might be saving him.

 

BOTTOM LINE: If Azrael is not in the unit and someone else is:

 

-C.Master' Brother Bonuswound keep that chaos lord busy I have traitors to kill with my mace'

-Brother Bonuswound 'Arghflsdng;ans;a.'

-C.Master' Damn he died too fast... Not only that the b% that killed him ascended too. THRICE DAMN!'

[FerociousBeast]

If all you see is a wound, then you're not looking at it right. Even if the Champion gets killed in the first round of his challenge, it's worth it if he keeps a choppy enemy character out of the fight or if he allows Azrael to beat up on the enemy squad.

 

However, you say you want your guy to survive to dish out the damage. Well, what weapons does a champion or even a sergeant have to dish out the damage? An axe or a fist can reliably deal wounds, but they're also Unwieldy. A power sword strikes at initiative, but is an unreliable wounder. The power mace is good at wounding but doesn't beat power armor.

 

The Blade of Caliban fits in quite comfortably in that list, and that's before you even take into account the WS5. And then the 6++ is just gravy.

 

If you're looking to make one of your basic, non-HQ soldiers more lethal, the Champion upgrade is one of the better ways to do it.

 

I mean face it, we're not talking about a Company Master here. There's only so much you can ever really count on a Company Champion from any codex doing. But seen in the context of company champions, the Dark Angel version is pretty good, as the numbers in my previous post show.

[Brother Immolator]

If all you see is a wound, then you're not looking at it right. Even if the Champion gets killed in the first round of his challenge, it's worth it if he keeps a choppy enemy character out of the fight or if he allows Azrael to beat up on the enemy squad.

 

However, you say you want your guy to survive to dish out the damage. Well, what weapons does a champion or even a sergeant have to dish out the damage? An axe or a fist can reliably deal wounds, but they're also Unwieldy. A power sword strikes at initiative, but is an unreliable wounder. The power mace is good at wounding but doesn't beat power armor.

 

The Blade of Caliban fits in quite comfortably in that list, and that's before you even take into account the WS5. And then the 6++ is just gravy.

 

If you're looking to make one of your basic, non-HQ soldiers more lethal, the Champion upgrade is one of the better ways to do it.

 

I mean face it, we're not talking about a Company Master here. There's only so much you can ever really count on a Company Champion from any codex doing. But seen in the context of company champions, the Dark Angel version is pretty good, as the numbers in my previous post show.

 

I am sorry but the one who looks at statements the wrong way is you.  You need to reread my post because half of what i write down you repeat my friend.

 

EDIT: And I dont say anything about my guy wanting to dish out damage, but if my champion is incapable of killing a freaking sergeant whats the point of him been the champion and equip him thus? So he can kill two models more? He can do with a chinsword.

 

BTW another matter for another time, but the maul is more effective vs power armor in the long run due to it be higher str, Yes it wont bypass it a standard but it will kill far more easier than the sword.

[Tenebris]

Well I have my basic command squad and I have made one of my veterans a champion. Sure he died many times, but when he killed a nasty Wolf Guard it was priceless. For the Lion! Still I agree that Unwieldy makes him squishy, but his job is to die defending the squad and if he kills the baddie for 15 points that is a bonus. Believe it or not the 6++ saved me once from a nasty power klaw. 

 

I have to concede that as a long term IG player sacrificing units becomes a second nature...

[Diavlo]

Well I have my basic command squad and I have made one of my veterans a champion. Sure he died many times, but when he killed a nasty Wolf Guard it was priceless. For the Lion! Still I agree that Unwieldy makes him squishy, but his job is to die defending the squad and if he kills the baddie for 15 points that is a bonus. Believe it or not the 6++ saved me once from a nasty power klaw. 

 

I have to concede that as a long term IG player sacrificing units becomes a second nature...

He shouldn't be called Champion then, maybe Victim is more appropriate.

[CovertToaster]

No.

 

If I had a strategy that specifically utilised a champion then I would take the upgrade but still complain about the blade of crap. Most of the time though I wouldn't need to challenge and as already mentioned just sit the apothecary out of the fight and don't accept challenges. Command Squads aren't front line combat squads anyway so I would probably never take the upgrade, they should be supporting your tac squads, waving the banner around, and mopping up depleted squads.

 

Same thing for ravenwing command squads I wouldn't bother with the champion, I would have 2 IC's attached to the squad, I would be hiding them away somewhere picking on weak units, Sammy's a CC beast anyway so he would be issuing challenges if needed, and a corvus hammer is awesome!

[Syphid]

I'm still on the fence.  I can't figure out how it could possibly worth it on a RW Command Squad.  I am interested to hear your opinion, but I don't see the usefulness of getting AP 3 and BS 5 but losing Initiative and Rending in a squad that can fire Stasis and Rad grenades.   And you don't even get a combat shield!  The only up side I see is it's a really cool model...

[Ronin_eX]

Yeah, I'm not sold on its use in either Battle Company or Ravenwing squads.  Both of those squads fit squarely in to "support" roles to me, since neither of them can be jacked up in model count.  I'd prefer to just save the cost of grabbing WS5 and the rest and kit them out to avoid contact with the enemy.

 

Even if the BoC was a good weapon (and even for 8 points, that is debatable) it doesn't mesh with how I would run my command squads.

 

Only a Deathwing command squad does well with being kitted as an assault unit, since five terminators is pretty good, all told.

 

So for me, at least, the cost isn't worth it.  Company command squads will be kitted out as banner carriers with a secondary dash of being a designated special weapon squad.  Ravenwing?  I'm still wondering about them, myself.  I suppose they are well-armed and quite mobile, which is nice for a support unit.  But the fragility means you will want to avoid combat with them.  Either way, spending points to make either of them better in close combat seems an iffy proposition to me.  If I want to have a nasty CC unit in Battle Company or Ravenwing then I'll take Company Vets or Black Knights in a large-sized unit instead.  Sure, neither comes with a WS5 champ, but they are larger and will likely hurt more anyways.  And with Black Knights you can debuff enemies so that an entire squad to achieve better effects on all models than you would get out of spending the points on a RW Champion (and the upgrade is free, though you lose out on S7AP2 RF fire from it).

 

For my points, the non-DW champs just aren't worth it.  They are hobbled by their own weapon so that against dedicated challengers, they will likely die.  In return they will probably beat those not dedicated to challenging, but at the premium you pay to do it, on a support unit, with a fixed size?  Nah, save the points.  We have other units that do assault better, we have other units that do challenges better, let our support units specialize in support, I say.

 

(The above does not necessarily conform to the pure truth and is only my personal opinion based on my play style.) :p

[Master Avoghai]

I also think that though your reasoning is interesting and temper a little the negative complains around the champion, I'll not follow on the way to say he's be becoming "good".

 

The first problem is that he REPLACES the sgt of the squad. It's important because it means that he's not so bad because he's good, he's not so bad because of the absence of competition. Be sure that if you had the possibility to take a sgt OR a company champion, most of the players would vote for a sgt. Not bad by default doesn't mean he' good.

 

Then in the gaming/fluff aspect company champions are there to take challenge : they are described to make vows of always accepting and defend the honor of their company... And you say that the best way to use them is to take challenge with your HQ and "forget" your champion for this role?

I understand the tactical aspect you're defending but it's just masking poor game design that prevent game to fit with the fluff.

Actually I do think that champion should have the same rule as chaos champion preventing them to refuse a challenge.

 

Finally I'd say that I kinda agree with you : BoC are not that bad... You have a nice WS bonus too and it's fine... No the problem does not come from the blade, it comes from the shield : 6++ is a joke. Conceptors should have given a 4++ but only in CC (or only against one opponent -> better in challenge again) THAT way the champion would be worth taken... But at the moment, with its actual rules it's 15 pts lost

[FerociousBeast]

 

Then in the gaming/fluff aspect company champions are there to take challenge : they are described to make vows of always accepting and defend the honor of their company... And you say that the best way to use them is to take challenge with your HQ and "forget" your champion for this role?

I understand the tactical aspect you're defending but it's just masking poor game design that prevent game to fit with the fluff.

Actually I do think that champion should have the same rule as chaos champion preventing them to refuse a challenge.

 

So, a lot of what people are complaining about are things that are universal to all Company Champions, no matter the codex. I mean face it, in a game like 40k where the General of an army also always happens to be its Kung Fu Master, a measly little Company Champion--no matter how impressive that title sounds--is just never going to be impressive.

 

This is a "problem," if problem it is, with Warhammer 40,000, not the Dark Angels codex. If you're arguing against the general uselessness of champions in the game, I'm not going to argue with you. Instead, I'm debating those who are ragging on the Dark Angels' Company Champion for one reason and one reason only: Unwieldy.

 

(Also Master Avoghai, you said that the problem with the champion is the Combat Shield, and I've long said that I hate 5th edition's changes to both Combat Shield and Storm Shield. The one should be 5++ and the other 3++ in close combat only. Their current rules are yet another reason to revile Ward.)

 

If you're going to take a Greenwing Command Squad, and you've got 15 points you want to spend on either a power weapon or the Champion upgrade, I think you should take the upgrade. If you want to run a bare bones Command Squad, though, with only a banner, planning to hide them in a Land Raider all day, well I think the Champion upgrade is still worth while, but not necessary.

[Brother Immolator]

On the top of my head, I dont remember any SM codex who gimps its company champion with a weapon that makes him useless in chalenges, whether he wants it or not.In fact the SM codex champion gets access to a power weapon. Meaning that if you want to gimp him with an axe do so yourself.

 

So I fail to see how this is a universal problem.

 

EDIT: Confirmed the SM champion has access to a Power weapon, dont have the rest of the codices on me.

[Master Avoghai]

@FB : we agree on most of the points(totally agree on the SS/CS point for ex), the rest is more mutual misunderstanding.

 

Your Kung fu master WILL crush your champion but a correct weapon configuration may introduce this part of incertitude great battles are full of. It will allow your champion to sacrify in order to save his companions or gain time for others to arrive... which is close to the fluff

And sometimes it will allow to make a wound before dying and allow his captain to achieve the work (à la Sanguinius)...

But I don't think that what we claim is making the champion a HQ killer just like you seem to imply.

 

What I just mean is that, at the current point, if, from what you mean, champion is a troop killer that shouldn't be use in challenge, why then should I take him rather than just giving a power axe to a normal guy? The WS point is counterbalanced by the AP point. And to me, AP is more important than WS for me.. And I think it's the same for most of us. Explaining why we don't believe in the champion potential.

 

Now there's 2 solutions for GW to solve the problem

- removing the I1 from the blade and let the champion strike a I normal. (Would be fine for GW and RW champions)

- modifying the CS rule to give the 5++ save in CC only (that could be fine for vets but not for the RW champion unless you give access to CS too)

[FerociousBeast]

WS is counterbalanced by AP only against terminators. Against everything else, as my mathhammer above shows, the Blade of Caliban + WS5 outperforms every other power weapon. Except lightning claws, I didn't run the numbers on them, so I'm not sure there.

 

As a champion fighting challenges, I'll recap what I said in the tl;dr original post.

 

The DA CC is likely to face either HQs or Sergeants in a challenge. HQs, the scary ones anyway, usually hit at I5+, so Unwieldy has no effect. So against HQs, the DA CC is effectively armed with a +1S power sword. Sergeants are a mixed bag but, for 15 points, need to be armed with a power sword to ignore the Champion's armor and hit at initiative, and the power sword is unreliable at wounding MEQs (about a 49% chance, IIRC, if they have 3 attacks). And nowadays it's actually pretty uncommon to see Sergeants sporting power swords anyway. The axe is more common. I guess access to a single lightning claw is also becoming more available to sergeants in the latest codexes, though for some reason that choice doesn't seem too popular yet. Maybe because it makes your model fugly.

 

So, against rank and file in a normal combat, the Champion upgrade is one of the most killy, outperforming all other weapons configurations, except against 2+ armor saves. In challenges, the Champion is just average, but not worse than most other sergeants or champions. However the utility gained by having an additional character to receive or issue challenges more than makes up for this deficiency. In front-line command squads, anyway.

[Brother Immolator]

I still fail to see how he will outperform a sergeant armed with a power weapon when he kills him and he is unable to strike back. Or an enemy company champion.

[FerociousBeast]

I fail to see how Azrael will outperform a grot who avoids all of his attacks and kills him in return. It might not be very likely, but you don't seem to be interested in probability or my actual arguments, only what if scenarios.

[facmanpob]

Here's the big problem with the Champion..........there are no ablative wounds in the RWCS if you take a Champion upgrade, and with his weapon being unwieldy he needs ablative wounds to ensure that he makes it to his initiative step (outside of challenges of course). If the RWCS was bigger then the Apothecary, Standard Bearer and Champion could be protected by another 2 dudes, but that's a whole other can of worms ;)