The Blade of Caliban: Another look

[exsulis81]

Last edition the company champion was a 25 point upgrade for a power weapon, and a combat shield. Then we had our veterans that could do that same setup for 5 points less.

[Phoebus]

 

Now do GW should have made the champ +30pts with 4++ save and a AP2 weapon to better represent what we expect of a company champion? Maybe, but that's not the debate, and that was not his point.

 

The point was : Do the champ is worth 35pts? FB demonstrate that yes, he IS worth 35pts.

 

Here is what FerociousBeast said:

 

 

You're asking the wrong question.

 

Since the codex has been released, feedback on the Blade of Caliban has been universally negative, but I think another take is in order. There are some obvious comparisons that have been made which show the BoC in a pretty unfavorable light, but I think discussion so far has missed the point.

 

The real question is not whether the BoC is as good as a power axe. (It isn't.) It's not whether the BoC is as good as a power sword. (Depends.) It's not even whether the BoC itself is any good at all... although bear with me for a moment, because I'm going to briefly address this question anyway.

 

Don't get me wrong, FerociousBeast's math is spot on.  I just disagree with the notion that so many other posters are wrong for asking a different question or focusing on a different aspect of the game.

 

Was there ever any doubt that the Champion was appropriately priced?  I don't see how.  But that's no different than this Codex having a Dark Angels "Company Champion" armed with nothing but a chainsword and a bolt pistol, and when people inevitably cry foul offering that it's ok... because he doesn't cost more than the two standard Veterans on the Command Squad.  Who cares?  The point is that your "champion" isn't really a Champion.  The Company Champion carries with him a certain theme - and that theme isn't "act as a 1-Wound punching bag while the HQ attacks uninhibited" or "he is able to win 50-51% of the time against individuals who are supposed to be - thematically at least - inferior to him".

[FerociousBeast]

Thanks, Master Avoghai . That's pretty much my argument in a nutshell. Although I believe the champ costs a total of 33 points (don't have book to hand though). Some others have made the valid point that if you just buy the command squad for the banner of devastation and plan to sit well back from the front lines, babysitting some tac squads, then the champ is a waste of 15 points, and I guess I agree. But if you're in the market for a power weapon, or you want the squad to accompany Azrael, then the champ is a good option. Although perhaps disappointing from a fluffy standpoint.

@Phoebus - Though it's not in the OP, I've said in other posts that I'm sympathetic to disappointment from a fluff standpoint. However, I again think the problems are endemic to the game, not just the Dark Angel champion. If you put a Veteran Sergeant into a challenge with an Ultramarine Champion, what do you think the odds are that the Vet Sarge will kill him? 51%. Now the UM will have a chance to kill the Sergeant even if he himself is killed, but the Ultramarine Champion really isn't any more impressive in a fight from a fluff standpoint than the Dark Angel Champion.

[Phoebus]

I can get behind that closing summary, FerociousBeast.  :)

[exsulis81]

The multi post glories of posting on a smart phone.....

[Master Avoghai]

Thanks, Master Avoghai . That's pretty much my argument in a nutshell. Although I believe the champ costs a total of 33 points (don't have book to hand though). Some others have made the valid point that if you just buy the command squad for the banner of devastation and plan to sit well back from the front lines, babysitting some tac squads, then the champ is a waste of 15 points, and I guess I agree. But if you're in the market for a power weapon, or you want the squad to accompany Azrael, then the champ is a good option. Although perhaps disappointing from a fluffy standpoint.

You're welcome :-p

About the squad composition : it's not the matter of the champion, it's the matter of army building and squad role... Even if, for the same price, I'd have a thunder hammer/SS marine that strikes at I, it will be point loss if I'd take him for a squad made for babysitting far from enemy's lines...

[Raven of the Wing]

i guess I stand on the side of fluff.

If my Command squad is sitting back with a SoD then i wont waste points.

but if its going to be supporting troops (DW or RW or PA) in assault, then id gear it up for CC and of course id take a champion, fluff demands it.

for an additional 15 points...meh i dont care tbh.

in a 1500+ game you tend to always be scrabling for those last 20 points anyway.

 

and yes Ive modelled a DA champion, (vet sprue + DA upgrade sprue)

[Brother Ramael]

Out of curiosity, since the 6th edition faq for Orks says you can play with the order of upgrades in order to achieve the desired results why shouldn't be possible to just buy a SS to a vet and then upgrade it to Champion? you waste the CS but who cares tbh...

[Brother Immolator]

The way you put it, no he is not.

 

First of all you are speculating that the Sarge will miss. In the tabletop 50% chance of killing is as good as dead. The actual chance is not 41% for the champion killing the sargeant because you have to factor in the possibility of been outright been killed so it goes like that:

 

Possibility of survivng + Possibility of hit + possibility of wounding. And if he has a lightning claw?

 

Secondly you are throwing apothecaries into the mix. So you need around 30+ (factoring the apothecaries cost into the cost of the champion) points in order to have a model that has according to the above calculus 41% to kill a one wound model. Sorry not my cup of tea. I prefere to throw another deathwing knight in my list. Or a plasma cannon somewhere else. Those will at least kill something.

 

Also do remember that all command squads from the varius codices do have the option of having good old DR pain in there. So basically we are back where we started: You will swing last and the dice gods will decide the outcome. With the scales weighting against you.

 

And again my arguement is not to prove that the company champion is worse than a sergent: My point is that the blade is a wargear option that ruins the function of the of the character and that he becomes worthless vs everything. Have fun when an imperial guard commisar or sergeant with a powersword guts you down before you swing. Way good way to spend your points I say. next time lets create a unit that looses to tau in CC too.

 

I also dont understand a recurring pattern with the replies in this thread: Why do people keep puting words in my mouth and why do they keep ignoring things completely. I can understand the latter but not the first. It seems you guys have rolled your grim resolve check. True Dark angels indeed.

 

When oh when did I said that a champ needs an ap2 4++ ? All I said is that he should have an Initiative striking weapon.

And since I cant see a valid arguement against what I repeat at about 3 replies Ill say it again: What makes so much worth of the points upgrade and an apothecarry upgrade when he cant reliably kill anything that will challenge him?

EDIT:It appears a score of ppl posted more or less at the same time: My reply was going to master avoghai on the bottom of pg2.

[Master Avoghai]

First of all you are speculating that the Sarge will miss. In the tabletop 50% chance of killing is as good as dead. The actual chance is not 41% for the champion killing the sargeant because you have to factor in the possibility of been outright been killed so it goes like that:

 

Possibility of survivng + Possibility of hit + possibility of wounding

Possibilité of surviving = 1-0,51 = 0,49

Possibility of hit+wound = 0,86

 

Hence possibility of surviving AND kill the sgt 0,49x0,86 = 41%

[FerociousBeast]

Brother Immolator. You are fundamentally misunderstanding the math. The DA champ's chance of killing the Vet Sarge is 83% when no other factors are included. It becomes 41% BECAUSE I have taken into account the fact that he has a 49% chance to survive the sergeant's initiative step. 0.83 * 0.49 = 0.41.

 

If you FEEL that 50% is as good as dead in this game, then you're entitled to your feelings. But that doesn't effect the reality that 51% of the time the Sarge will win and 41% of the time the champ will.

[shabbadoo]

The BoC is a crap weapon for a one wound model with a 3+ save (and therefore completely vulnerable to power swords which will strike him first) whose true purpose as a Champion is to accept challenges (but who is praying that somebody else does ). The weapon puts the Champion in state of "i strike last, but I wound on a 3+ usually (but I hope you don't have a 2+ armor save, because that would really rain on my parade of non-awesomeness).", which will really only matter at all when he faces off against...nothing....in a challenge, because anyone else who is striking last will usually be doing so because they have a power axe, power fist, or equivalent weapon, which are "I strike last, but will usually wound on a 2+. Oh, and I don't care what your armor save is, because you will have none." type weapons.

That is the only truth about this weapon, and if I take another look it, which I am doing. It is still true. The BoC still sews socks in hell. It helps get your 35 point Company Champion killed, and it helps get your 47 point Ravenwing Command Squad Champion killed (which is even more awesomer when we realize that this is being applied to a 3-model unit; at least he gets Feel No Pain against most power fists).

Now, what people should be taking another look at, and which is the only redeeming thing in the whole situation, is the Champion's WS 5. The "User +1" Strength value of the BoC is its only positive factor, which does need to be accounted for. Against other squad leaders, the Champion will usually hit on a 3+. That is very important, but of course that has nothing to do with the BoC at all, and everything to do with the Champion himself. Unfortunately he can't put that weapon skill to use using a power sword, such that he could actually tee off on opponents at Initiative value, and so have an opportunity to take out those opponent characters armed with a power axe or power fist before they can even swing. Instead, the Champion is going to hit on a 3+ at the same time as those models will be hitting him on a 4+, while he will be wounding them on a 3+, and they him on a 2+. The kill ratios of Champion and enemy, per attack, in this case will be .4444 and .3472 (including the Combat shield's 6++ save). The edge goes to the champion, but with those chances being applied to at least two attacks per model, both are likely to die, unless it is a power axe that is being used against the Champion, in which case he will likely be getting Feel no Pain roll for his unit Apothecary, which drops the enemy kill ratio to .2315 per attack, which could actually be survivable. So, is it worth sacrificing the Champion for an opponent's squad leader? It all depends on the points costs, and how the enemy is armed. If the enemy squad leader has a power axe, and your Apothecary is not likely to get killed first, heck, start singing a battle hymn, and wade on in there. If the enemy squad leader has a power fist, start singing your death hymn, and wade on in there anyways. The sword itself is not a cheap boon though, as it basically puts the Champion in a better position to be killed in all cases. With a simple power sword, the Champion's kill ratio would be 1:3, or .3333 per attack. You apply that chance to three attacks and you get a .9999 kill ratio at Initiative value (which would apparently be way to useful to allow), and if that enemy squad leader has a power axe or power fist, well, they will never swing it at all, will they. Can't have that now, can we.

So, when a Dark Angels Veteran gets "promoted" to Champion, do the solemn Dark Angels hold an immediate wake? "It was nice knowing you Bob. Just be sure and take one of those bastards with you when you go, if you can. We'd ask you to be sure and take more than one with you when you go, but we Dark Angels were ever a pragmatic bunch."

Now, will I actually field Champions? Yes, because I am going to build them to look cool, and because I like to use use cool looking models. I certainly won't be fielding Champions with BoCs because they have obvious advantages over Champions armed with power swords though, because they certainly don't.

[FerociousBeast]

Well, you replied to the title of the thread and not the OP, since the OP already covers a lot of the ground you're covering. Understandable since it's a long post. But the things you're missing are 1) Champions also fight in non-challenges, 2) Champions can receive or issue challenges for other characters in their unit, and 3) many of your opponents are going to be I5+. Is it disappointing that your champion is going to croak in the majority of his challenges? Yes. Would it be nice if he had a 75% chance to beat sergeants instead of 41%? Undeniably. But the champion still has a lot of utility.

 

You do raise one valid point that hasn't been addressed yet in this thread. If you have 15 points and you want to either upgrade a DA vet to champion or give him a power weapon, if you give him a power weapon he remains a grunt, but if you upgrade him to champion his superior damage output can be neutralized through a challenge. Still, if that happens, then the sergeant or HQ or whatever isn't beating up on the rest of your squad and can contribute only 1 wound to combat results.

[Brother Immolator]

Yeah Indeed I missunderstood the math. I admit I was wrong in there. After all its not my strong point. Its not bad admitting a mistake or faulty logic, you should try it some time.

Regardless it is not my understanding only that 50% chance of killing is a more than enough chance to be desired. If you face an ork mob or an imperial guard blob who have an even less chance to kill on a model per model basis but begin throwing dice you will understand what I mean.

 

In your latest reply that the champion will fight outside of challenges I will remind you this: Virtually all squads in the game come with a squad leader fully capable of totting a nasty weapon. Most of the time those squad leaders will have an ap3 weapon that ignores power armor. Lets face it, marines dominate the field and thats what most people will have to carry around. That fact means that the champion will be challenged by virtue of the enemy knowing that will swing from 2 to 3 attacks first, that means 50% + 50% + 50% chance to kill your champion. How many will he loose? And if you refuse the challenge he will preoceed to maim the squad while the champion sings a merry tune. In either case is a loss for the DA player. That preatty much covers the second part of your reply too, hence more or less the champion acts an ablative wound as I posted before. The oponents that will be I5+ are either going to be: Special characters,Dedicated CC units, Eldar, dark eldar, noice marines or Chaos marines with the mark of nurgle. If the squad gets charged by something like that they will throw 30 attacks (if the enemy squad is at full strength) plus the attacks of the accompanying character and I dont even dare count things such as furrius charge. I dont need to do the math (in fact I cant and If you have time please do so as I am a bit currious) to know that the cammand squad is toast and the champion if he accepts the challenge a) by the characters is dead before he swings,b)is dead by the rest of the unit if you toss your character to accept the challenge c)is challenged and refuses, thereby sits on a rock picking daisies with the rest of his squad been teared a new one.

Bottomline: Marines in power armor (even in command squads) are not dedicated CC units. They dont have numbers and I to retaliate to such a unit and the champion itself will be a free kill at best a freeby at the chaos table if you face chaos marines at worst.

[FerociousBeast]

@Shabbadoo

 

With a simple power sword, the Champion's kill ratio would be 1:3, or .3333 per attack.  You apply that chance to three attacks and you get a .9999 kill ratio at Initiative value (which would apparently be way to useful to allow), and if that enemy squad leader has a power axe or power fist, well, they will never swing it at all, will they.  Can't have that now, can we.

 

Your math is slightly off here, by the way. An Ultramarine Champion's odds of killing a Vet Sergeant with a single attack may equal 33% (2/3 x 1/2 x 1 = 2/6 = 33%), but that doesn't mean that the probability that he will kill the Sarge is .33 x 3 = 99%. The probability is 1 minus the probability that he will fail to wound with all attacks:

 

1 - (1 - 0.33)^3 = 70%

 

Still, 70% is much better odds than the DA Champ's 41%.

 

@Brother Immolator

 

That fact means that the champion will be challenged by virtue of the enemy knowing that will swing from 2 to 3 attacks first, that means 50% + 50% + 50% chance to kill your champion.

 

The 51% already takes into account all three attacks. One single attack has only a 21% chance of wounding the DA champ.

[Master Avoghai]

You do raise one valid point that hasn't been addressed yet in this thread. If you have 15 points and you want to either upgrade a DA vet to champion or give him a power weapon, if you give him a power weapon he remains a grunt, but if you upgrade him to champion his superior damage output can be neutralized through a challenge. Still, if that happens, then the sergeant or HQ or whatever isn't beating up on the rest of your squad and can contribute only 1 wound to combat results.

I think it's a main point yes.

We have this 15pts option, as well as the 15pts option of giving a random marine a PW... Ther are times it will be more interesting to do one and times it will be more interesting to do the other.

Same argument can be made with the vet sgt weapon choice. Some say that Power sword is compulsory I say no. If you face an eldar army with I5 or slaanesh marines or if you face lots of 2+ saves. In this case you'll prefer Axe... Or against 4+ save armies you'll prefer a maul. Finally, you'll always find drawbacks in all the weapon choices. Power maul is not worse than or better than axe or sword... All 3 cost 15pts and are worth it... BECAUSE they have all their advantage and and drawbacks.

Company champion is a WS5 S5 Power weapon that strikes last, it's another alternative choice.

I really feel like tring to convince you that TL LC are worth their 20pts upgrade because there are situations where you'll prefer to have it rather than a LC/TLPG turret on your RZB and that you answer me that no it's crap because GW should have given your RZB the options of a plasma cannon turret for 30pts.

[shabbadoo]

Yeah, I thought I messed that math up. Still, as you say, the point stands. The sword just endangers the champion more than it helps in all cases. Still, I will likely field a Company Champion, but very rarely the Ravenwing Champion, as, even if buffed up with Sammael + another HQ, that 3-model unit really shouldn't be in close combat, let alone alongside a Champion who is just asking to be killed. In most cases, such a unit will be much better off hanging back and blasting stuff dead with plasma talons/plasma cannon fire.

There's a good point though- the Champion can be fed to something utterly foul that would otherwise brutalize your Command Squad, like a Daemon Prince with a daemon weapon who rolls a 6 for bonus attacks, and who got off a warp speed for 3 more attacks. Yeah, that Champion will be worth it if he ends up sucking up said Daemon Prince's 15 attacks of Command Squad annihilating. However, BoC still does nothing there either.

And another good point- though most enemies units will usually have a leader character of some kind, when they don't the BoC will be a bonus, unless your Command Squad has been depleted and the Champion is therefore likely to get killed off before being able to attack.

[templarphoenix]

I am going to upgrade one vet in command squad to a champion, taking Blade of Caliban, even I know he's not going to survive most of time.

 

Before this, the guy in my army who's taking damage, saving them from powerful enemies, is my HQ character. (company master mostly, as long as he's not getting instant killed) Now since our HQ character can do more damage, they pass the role to the company champion.

 

After all if he fight and survives the battle, I'll promote him to company master.

[FerociousBeast]

The sword just endangers the champion more than it helps in all cases.

Yeah, that Champion will be worth it if he ends up sucking up said Daemon Prince's 15 attacks of Command Squad annihilating. However, BoC still does nothing there either.

Not true. In such a matchup the Daemon Prince will be hitting at a much higher initiative than any Company Champion anyway, so the BoC's Unwieldy rule has no effect. But, if by some miracle he survives the Daemon Prince's attentions, the DA champ will be S5 while other champs, armed with power swords, would be only S4. Against Daemon Princes and many other HQs, and any other character with I5 or greater, the BoC is nothing but a benefit!

[Brother Immolator]

I will throw my last cents into this discussion because all we do is run around in circles.

 

And I will start by agreeing that if he challenges the Daemon prince it might be worth it. Though the result will be the same. It will just save em for one turn.

 

Now having said that, there are two things to consider : The chaos ruebook states that their characters must issue chalenges. Its not an if they want, they must. Now seen as the daemon prince will most likely sprotting wings to make him a flying mostrus creature he will charge and thereby declare a challenge. Now if the opponet has taken the blade into consideration and he doesnt want the attacks to go to waste he will proceed to lay waste to the character, thereby leaving the champion to deal him a wound at best. Then he has to challenge the champion for the next turn and proceed to murdure him. If you are lucky and the rest of the squad sports power weapons it might be able to kill it. However a deamon prince will cost around 300pts and the squad fully tooled with power weapons and apothecary and a character will at best match those points at worse will cost more. Dunno if it can be considered a good tactic.

 

My final remark is that you dont compare an option based on how useless a similar option is to another codex. Deminishing the worth of something (or even aknowledge it) else doesnt make our option better. In fact it highlights the fact that ours is bad.

[lhg033]

to throw into the mix on this - the stats are fine and well however they assume a straight out fight will be able to occur and that the opposing challenger isnt killed off by shooting or hammer of wrath attacks. granted the same is also true, especially for a 3 model bike unit, that overwatch can take its toll. with casualties removed form the front, it is reasonabe to assume that a round of shooting followng by hammer of wrath may leave an enemy squad leaderless on a charge if you come in at the right angel.

 

this doesnt factor in that you are probably slightly insane to be taking on, say, 10 man tactical squads with a 3 man unit. if you are in the situation that the champion has to fight in a duel than you loose to many attacks to stand a chance against a larger squad that has enoguh volume of fire to put a good amount of hurt on you in overwatch first

[Diavlo]

You know what. Sure he can survive and kill his opponent 41% of times and he is pretty cheap.

 

So what. He should be a champion and he should win challanges, not have less than 50%.

 

I'd pay gladly more points for a true champion, not a guy that is cheap and sometimes survive.

 

Let's call him "Not to smart Challanger" and call his weapon "Its too big and too heavy to be effective" and I'm fine with that, but calling him Champion with Blade of Caliban is way too much.

 

I can understand cheap units, but for The Lion, champion should be frightening not cheap and slow.

[Phoebus]

I can understand cheap units, but for The Lion, champion should be frightening not cheap and slow.

 

I wish I could "Like" that comment, but this board won't let me do so on ANYTHING!  :D

[exsulis81]

Let's break those points down a bit too. The combat shield is what 5 points, then we get a increase in ws for the same price(it is a lot easier to see if you cross the pond into fantasy), which means the blade of C is a 5 point upgrade. Not too bad for the package but I'd prefer a upgrade to a power weapon any day.

[ImperialGuardian]

Here is my fix... I will model my champion holding a physically broken sword... Only when all the fallen are hunted down will his blade work properly!