Sanctimonius Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Something that just occurred to me as I'm failing to paint a Night Lord force. As the Horus Heresy books are going strongly and developing into a real sci-fi epic, and the canon around the 40k universe is being writ and re-writ, I started thinking about how the Night Lords function and how they've been able to keep themselves going. Honour-duels, duels over leadership, flat-out murder, losses and battles must take their toll, but we've seen plenty of stories where the Traitor Legions replenish their forces either with new recruits and gene-seed, or, every now and again, with troops from outside the Legion. Now, I was trying to think of cases where this happens - a legionary swaps his allegiance to another legion or chapter. I couldn't think of any Loyalist factions that do this, Deathwatch aside - why would they? Wanting to change faction seems to suggest a need to identify with a new way of life, of thinking, and Imperials aren't particularly known for thinking. Of course we get examples of Loyalists changing factions if they become renegades - Red Corsairs being the most obvious example. And sometimes we get examples of the traitors changing their legions - the most obvious I could think of is the swelling of the Black Legion as more and more identify with the crusades of Abaddon, like the Night Lord sorcerer in ADB's Night Lords stories. But we also get a couple of examples of people joining the Night Lords - Variel in 40k, and Alastor Rushal in the short story in Shadows of Treachery, to me the more interesting example. Why are these people joining the Night Lords? What causes them to cast aside their former allies to join with such a dark legion cursed with a mad father? I'm having a little trouble coming up with a reason, although I'm sure it will be answered a little later in Alastor's case. But for now, any speculation as to why it happens? Or any examples of single people joining another legion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ifrit446 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Well the two examples of Variel and Alastor come from their loyalty to the Night Lords in control (Talos and Sevatar respectively) which probably makes them question their current lifestyles...For example, SPOILERS!!! Talos asks Variel to join him, then Variel has to think "well would it be nicer over there than with the Corsairs?" and then he also factors in Fryga where Talos apparently saved his life. So they join up with the Night Lords out of former alliances and maybe even ambitiously. The Raven (Alastor) joins Sevatar alittle bit differently in that he gets tortured rigorously beforehand, so we the readers aren't really sure what the other reasoning could have been for him turning traitor. If Mr. A D-B could give us some truth on the matter, that might clear things up better ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I could be wrong about this, but I also remember Xarl I think, saying that Variel would make a good Night Lord so that's a little more of the "birds of a feather flocking together." As far as Alastor... Stockholm Syndrome? It would be a sort of continuation to the idea pointed out in Deliverance Lost that sometimes, the line between one side or the other may be black and white, but it's definitely not straight. Of course, I place emphasis on "may" in that sentence because it is 40k. Not saying this is what happened, just that it might be what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Contrary to the other Legions, the Night Lords fight for material gain and power, not out of a vaunted belief in uncaring gods or a grand dream. I imagine that this philosophy is attractive to mercenary work-inclined personalities, accomplished loner types, or people who were cast out from their own Warband. Scum like that can end up joining/allying with the 8th Legion as they basically share the same base goals. My 2 Kraks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanctimonius Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 I can see that. There would be an attraction to many to fight for your own ends. NL like Talos fight for the Legion and because that's who they are. Following the Chaos Gods must seem like simply trading one overbearingly powerful master for another, you sacrifice yourself to further the Imperium or to further the aims of Chaos. At least as NL you get to make your own plans - or at least you get to think you're doing so.... Alastor is a really interesting one to me, and I hope he gets developed more as a character. Stockholm syndrome aside he fights with the man who tortured him pretty badly, yet they seem to trust each other enough to fight Loyalists together, and the other NL seem to be unbothered by this - there has to be something more going on there, otherwise you'd think he would simply join the Dark Angels and start laying into the NL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AekoldHelbrass Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Somehow I think it doesn't matter really if they fight together or not. Warbands are driven by common cause more than some ideology. I'm interested more in mixing the gene-seed. Somewhere it was written that cursed foundings were an attempt to mix the gene-seed of different chapter to create pure gene-seed, and it failed. So will the Night Lords use gene-seed of their newcomers from other Legions, or they will prefer to stay pure to preserve stability of their own gene-seed? And how Black Legion deals with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I don't really know. Considering most of the early Night Lords are Nostroman gang members, rapists, murderers, etc., I would find it hard for any of them to "trust" their brothers. But they were needed to do some really dirty work, and dirty people do that best. In the terminology of D&D, I imagine most members of the Night Lords to be somewhere on the "evil" scale. People like Talos are maybe lawful evil, because they're doing what they perceive to be just, even though it is clearly not good. The neutral evils just kill because they can, any excuse to cause terror and leave trails of corpses (I'm lookin at you, Uzas). And the best kind, chaotic evil, the true "lookin out for #1" guys. Groups like that pretty much only stick together due to the fact that they don't want to turn their backs on each other for fear of what will happen. "Kill the king. The king is dead, long live the king. I am the king!" I think it works better with some of the more "traditional" Night Lords warbands, the ones that still cling to their father's ideals. As is being discussed in another topic on this forum, common goals can do a lot to bring people together. I personally feel like two kinds of people join the Night Lords legion: Those that have some previous ties to a member or warband, and those that are kidnapped. ADB especially makes me think even if someone actually wanted to join a Night Lords warband, they may not even be accepted. The legion fell apart almost immediately after Kurze's death due to the many different outlooks and beliefs that such an unstable grouping is bound to have, anyway, so any like-minded people are probably already in their own little insular groups, very wary of outsiders. I would be. If I were from any other legion, I would probably not want to willingly join a group of people as violent and unpredictable as the Night Lords. Unless, of course, my only other option was the World Eaters.Edit: wow, typing on a caffeine rush leads to a fair few repeated words and relatively poor sentence structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 If I were from any other legion, I would probably not want to willingly join a group of people as violent and unpredictable as the Night Lords. Unless, of course, my only other option was the World Eaters. So you're saying you wouldn't mind joining the Emperor's Children.....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 If I were from any other legion, I would probably not want to willingly join a group of people as violent and unpredictable as the Night Lords. Unless, of course, my only other option was the World Eaters. So you're saying you wouldn't mind joining the Emperor's Children.....? Sex, Drugs, and Rock n' Roll, man. Sign me up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanctimonius Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 Chaos warbands aren't exactly known for their predictability in any of the cases, except maybe for Thousand Sons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I dunno man, some of the other things they do to each other is just too far. I think alot of it has to do with what's been said already, loyalty or brotherhood to someone in the warband or would life be better as a Night Lord than whatever the marine is currently. That said, I'm sure the VIIIth legion warbands gain far fewer converts than say the Black Legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 If I were to be drawn to the Night Lords, though, to change my allegiances or forge my first, or whatever, it would definitely be because I have the utmost respect for how thoroughly they defeat their enemies. Never fight fair. Break them before they even see you. The mere mentioning of your name causes people do have strokes and check over their shoulders for weeks.CRUSH YOUR ENEMIES, SEE THEM DRIVEN BEFORE YOU, HEAR THE LAMENTATIONS OF THEIR WOMEN. Basically they're Space Conan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanctimonius Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 If I were to be drawn to the Night Lords, though, to change my allegiances or forge my first, or whatever, it would definitely be because I have the utmost respect for how thoroughly they defeat their enemies. Never fight fair. Break them before they even see you. The mere mentioning of your name causes people do have strokes and check over their shoulders for weeks. CRUSH YOUR ENEMIES, SEE THEM DRIVEN BEFORE YOU, HEAR THE LAMENTATIONS OF THEIR WOMEN. Basically they're Space Conan. Led by Space Batman, lets not forget that. There's a certain honesty to the way the NL function. Power through strength and little else. Fight to win, and only fight when you're confident of winning, and you don't owe your rank or status to anything or anyone else - you want to further yourself then kick the crap out of someone and do so. None of this namby-pamby bowing to indifferent deities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaz431 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 There's a certain honesty to the way the NL function. Power through strength and little else. Fight to win, and only fight when you're confident of winning, and you don't owe your rank or status to anything or anyone else - you want to further yourself then kick the crap out of someone and do so. None of this namby-pamby bowing to indifferent deities. The good part of that right there is something that can be seen on the tabletop now. I.E. I played a game with my night lords warband against my buddy's dark angels. My aspiring champion marked by khorne (with +1 armor save) defeated a librarian in challenge, and became a daemon prince. The irony was delicious. Also it can be seen as in your chaos lord gets taken down in game but a champion killed the enemy warlord does that not make him your new warband leader? Maybe, but only in a cinematic aspect. Oh, and I will forget the space batman line. That is straight heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Yeah, to be honest I would think of Space Punisher before I thought of Space Batman. Both are willing to go the mile, but Punisher actually goes the mile. And I never thought of Space Conan before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinners Red Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I dislike (not even dislike, just kinda meh about it) thinking of the Night Lords as "space batman/punisher" is a little off. Night Lords are great tacticians, not quite on the level of the Alpha Legion. They are blood thirsty, but not on the level of the World Eaters. They have a sense of tradition and honor. But most importantly they fight for themselves and their brothers. Hardly ever for a leader or an ideal (though who knows what Decimus will do etc). They have an interesting sense of brother hood that could appeal to a lot of people. Doesn't Jago say something along the lines of "I am here, because you are here. Because we are brothers." I never really saw anything about that bond in another traitor legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 That's actually a pretty good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Yeah, to be honest I would think of Space Punisher before I thought of Space Batman. Both are willing to go the mile, but Punisher actually goes the mile. And I never thought of Space Conan before. I was watching a youtube video of every Arnold scream ever and it just came to me. also I agree with Kurze = Space Punisher. Batman never really kills anyone. He broods a lot, and he's awesome, but he doesn't kill. He especially doesn't murder. Ol' Mr. Castle is like "HEY IT'S EVIL LET'S SHOOT IT." Much more Night Lord-y. I dislike (not even dislike, just kinda meh about it) thinking of the Night Lords as "space batman/punisher" is a little off. Night Lords are great tacticians, not quite on the level of the Alpha Legion. They are blood thirsty, but not on the level of the World Eaters. They have a sense of tradition and honor. But most importantly they fight for themselves and their brothers. Hardly ever for a leader or an ideal (though who knows what Decimus will do etc). They have an interesting sense of brother hood that could appeal to a lot of people. Doesn't Jago say something along the lines of "I am here, because you are here. Because we are brothers." I never really saw anything about that bond in another traitor legion. You're right. I think that is more along my point of the warbands are each their own insular little worlds, though. For example, there's also "Lord of the Night," which focuses on Talonmaster Sahaal. In one of ADB's books they mention how Talos hates Sahaal and considers him a coward because he ran and hid himself away while the assassin escaped, but at the same time Sahaal hates Talos and considers him basically a traitor, because he disobeyed their father's direct order and tracked/killed M'Shen. Not exactly a Beaver Cleaver family dynamic going on there. Though that would make an excellent episode. Beav goes out for vengeance and Wally disowns him. Oh and also, Jago has the Atramentar kill like 5 dudes in the first few minutes of a story because he knows they won't side with him. So then there's that. edit: found more stuff to say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaz431 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 If Talos had not killed M'shen, would he still be worthy of the title soul hunter? BLAM! That just happened! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 If I were from any other legion, I would probably not want to willingly join a group of people as violent and unpredictable as the Night Lords. Unless, of course, my only other option was the World Eaters. So you're saying you wouldn't mind joining the Emperor's Children.....? I wouldn't want to join the Bad-Touch Brigade. If I were a Space Marine, and had to choose, I think I'd go with either the Red Corsairs, or the Black Legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diabloelmo Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I've always found the internal dynamic of the 8th legion to be rather fascinating. Each warband is essentially comprised of incredibly selfish, spiteful individuals, who somehow manage to stick together and fight effectively as a group. I think that for most members of the Night Lords, they stay together not really out of any loyalty to their brothers, but out of a mutual hatred of the Imperium and the understanding that anywhere else they could possibly go would be worse (from their perspective) than where they already are. So, they continue to fight alongside one another like the brothers they are on the battlefield, and avoid each other when not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I wouldn't want to join the Bad-Touch Brigade. If I were a Space Marine, and had to choose, I think I'd go with either the Red Corsairs, or the Black Legion. What is ? I agree for sure. If we had to pick one, I'd probably go with the Black Legion. Or possibly the Alpha Legion as they don't seem to into killing their own for no apparent reason (or doing any other wierd things.....looking at you Emperor's Children). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I'd still go Night Lords if I had to choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 They'd probably torture you first Kol then maybe they'd let you in.....maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Pssh, just kill the leader and then pull of a Jet Li impression from the end of "The One." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owYk4TOddYY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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