Advice needed about Ironclad Dread loadout...

[tvih]

Lol if FW isnt allowed then they are not true 40k players.

 

Or they could argue that FW isn't true 40k since it's not in the main codices nor in the rulebooks :P See how that works? Personally I don't mind people using FW, it's not like it could be any more of an unbalanced mess than what the main game already is.

[Giga]

Chainfist is a bad idea. Unless fighting other walkers, in close combat you always hit on rear armor, so unless you're attacking a monolith or a land raider that means you're throwing S10 hits against AV10/11, making chainfists kinda pointless. 

 

As for other walkers, aside from other ironclads, furiosos, and soul grinders (not very usual sights on the battlefield) everything has front armor AV10-12, so a chainfist is pretty much useless there as well. 

 

Just hold onto the seismic hammer. ;]

[Giga]

Lucius drop pods are easily one of the most ridiculous, annoying rulesets ever to come out of FW. No proper tournament is going to allow them. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Lucius drop pods are easily one of the most ridiculous, annoying rulesets ever to come out of FW. No proper tournament is going to allow them. 

 

And that's another reason why I haven't bought one yet.  Hell, even the Feast of Blades open allowed basically all Forgeworld stuff except for like, three things.  One of which was the Lucius.

[Giga]

The funny thing is, in case you somehow find a valid tournament that allows Lucius, you can always just use a regular drop pod to represent it. Not like anyone's gonna notice. :] 

[Axagoras]

What was the other 2 things they didn't allow? Let me guess, contemptor with 2 kheres assault cannons because that 1 unit breaks the game and can solo entire armies on its own :P Sorry im stubborn about FW.

 

Now back to ironclads, it depends on what you want it to do, but never use a chainfist, hurricane bolter isnt that great either, but 2 heavy flamers is amazing. Also melta gun and 2 hkm is good for cracking tanks (yet somehow firing that at marines yesterday didnt kill a single one). And im still not sure about using the ironclad assault launchers, 15 points seems a lot for +1 cover save and for frag grenades.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Then let's look at what advantages the assault launchers give, shall we?  But first, let's look at the greatest threats to the Ironclad you are most likely to face (and I caveat that because honestly, everyone knows by now that massed gauss fire will kill anything with an Armor Value).

 

Greatest Shooting Threat: meltaguns.  Why?  Because the Ironclad's mission and most common means of deployment involve it getting as close as it can as fast as it can, usually via drop pod.  The enemy is going to have one turn -- two at the abosolute most -- to kill it with a gun before it can charge into an enemy infantry unit, thus preventing a shooting death.  Even in an age where lascannons are regaining a measure of popularity, half-range melta is still the single best source for a one shot-one kill option against an armored target.  There are three common types of meltas: the inferno pistol, the meltagun (including combi-versions), and the multimelta.  Two out of the three, and the two which are undoubtedly the most commonly seen on the tabletop, have their "half-range" ability inside the 8" Stealth bubble of the Ironclad's defensive grenades.  Terrain isn't even required; Stealth plus smoke launchers equals a 4+ cover save against a weapon which is in 95% of cases a single-shot weapon.  Effectiveness of defensive grenades drops of course when being fired at by a multimelta due to its longer range, but even then, careful positioning by the Ironclad's player can mitigate this effect.  By closing on the target as much as humanly possible, one can close to within the 8" sweet spot.  If the offending multimelta is infantry-carried, then the enemy has to either attempt to shoot through the cover save at normal BS or -- if possible -- move the weapon-bearer outside of the sweet spot. . . at which point they're resorting to snap fire.  Vehicle-mounted multimeltas are another story altogther of course.  A pintle-mount on a Land Raider or Land Speeder doesn't particularly care, but a Storm Raven will have to go into hover mode to get an effective shot (at which point the rest of the army can dump into it) and it's simply counter-intuitive for another Dreadnought to back away from a walker-slap-fight in order to pop a shot (this comment made on the basis that most of the time, a Dreadnought with multimelta is going to have a DCCW as well).  And as a final comment on this, the shift in general 6th Edition list-building in going infantry-heavy as opposed to armor-heavy has made meltaguns ever more rare, and AV13 isn't afraid of S7 unless you have a LOT of it.

 

 

Great Close Combat Threat: chainfists, thunder hammers, and DCCWs.  I deliberately left out power fists from that list because S8 against AV13 -- usually with only two swings needing a 4+ to connect -- is such a ludicrous chance of doing serious damage that it's not worth debating.  Thunder hammers also have a similar poor chance at penetrating, but the abundance of Hammernators in many MEQ armies means that you're dealing with a numbers game, so good hits are possible when you're throwing that many dice.  Chainfists are comparatively rare, but their ability to cut AV13 make them more dangerous than thunder hammers are on an individual basis.  And lastly, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons hit at a big S10, so they too are able to punch an Ironclad's armor with relative ease.  So how do the assault launchers mitigate these threats?  In two ways.

 

1. Defensive Grenades deny charge-attack bonuses.  Five Hammernators charging your Ironclad will, without modifiers, deliver fifteen total attacks.  Some quick averages work dictates about seven or eight hits, only two of which are actually putting damage through.  Without their bonus charge attacks, however, they throw their standard ten attacks, landing five hits and only one of which actually puts damage through.  Since they are Unwiedly and the Ironclad is not, this means that the Ironclad has the opportunity to further reduce the incoming attacks with its own at-Initiative attacks first (but let's be fair; we're talking about storm shields, so the big guy'll be lucky if he nails more than one Termie).  It's not a huge shift, but it's significant enough that he's likely to survive at least the first round of combat.  And before anyone brings up the Concussive rule, read it again -- it specifically states that in order for Concussive to affect the model in question, it has to have lost a wound.  And Dreadnoughts do not have a Wounds stat.  Against chainfists and other walkers, the difference is even more pronounced.  The average Tactical Terminator squad has only one or two chainfists; regular and Venerable loyalist Dreadnoughts are all a base of two attacks, and I've yet to see anyone field a Chaos Dreadnought.  Even the Defiler and the Fiends find 90% of their use as fire support, not charging forward to rip things to shreds.  These types of units rely on getting the extra attack from charging in order to ensure that they're putting damage on the target.  If you then take away those extra attacks, you're levelling the odds in your favor.

 

2. Offensive Grenades allow him to strike at Initiative 4 when charging into terrain.  This means that when he is charging, regardless of the terrain or lack thereof that he is running through, he gets to strike before any infantry-carried CCW that is capable of hurting him (and even if you are charging a fellow Dreadnought, I'd rather have four attacks at I4 than two attacks at I4).  Power fists, chain fists, and thunder hammers all have to wait their turn while the Ironclad lays out four bone-crushing S10 AP2 attacks.  If you're lucky or good, you just might squash that Tactical Sergeant with his power fist or the lone chain fist-wielding Terminator before he even gets to swing.  Oh, and let's be fair again: you shouldn't be charging an Ironclad into a mass of Hammernators, unless there is some dire consequence to the rest of the game if you don't.

 

Not exactly concise, I know, but that is why I always, always, always recommend Ironclad Assault Launchers.

[Giga]

You don't even have to kill the ironclad to neutralize it. Immobilization is just as useful. 

 

Seriously though, if a droppoded ironclad was any good you'd see them used in tournament-winning lists. As it is, I rarely if ever see vanilla win tournaments to begin with, let alone with droppoded ironclads. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Christ, Giga.  One of these days, we're going to have to play so that I can show you that I'm not just blowing smoke.

[Aqui]

In any case, I've got my Ironclad with the launchers added to the model.  I'll give them a go at some point.  I was going to try getting a game at my local GW, but the table was fully booked all day today :(  Still not sure whether to have two flamers mounted or have one flamer and one melta.  I'm not going to bother with the missile launchers.  With regards to drop pods, I'll just get the regular GW one.  The money I'd have to pay for a FW one, I could use towards getting another tactical squad to make my two combat squads up to two full squads.

 

Thanks for all the comments, Brothers.  When I eventually get a game, I'll be sure to let you all know via battle report ^_^

[Giga]

Christ, Giga.  One of these days, we're going to have to play so that I can show you that I'm not just blowing smoke.

When I first started 40k in 5th ed, I used to run a droppoded ironclad or venerable. They NEVER lived through the first turn. Maybe I got off a charge once. Because of this, you could say I'm kinda prejudiced against droppoded dreads. :D 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Christ, Giga. One of these days, we're going to have to play so that I can show you that I'm not just blowing smoke.

When I first started 40k in 5th ed, I used to run a droppoded ironclad or venerable. They NEVER lived through the first turn. Maybe I got off a charge once. Because of this, you could say I'm kinda prejudiced against droppoded dreads.

Fair enough.

[Muctar]

In any case, I've got my Ironclad with the launchers added to the model. I'll give them a go at some point. I was going to try getting a game at my local GW, but the table was fully booked all day today Still not sure whether to have two flamers mounted or have one flamer and one melta. I'm not going to bother with the missile launchers. With regards to drop pods, I'll just get the regular GW one. The money I'd have to pay for a FW one, I could use towards getting another tactical squad to make my two combat squads up to two full squads.

Thanks for all the comments, Brothers. When I eventually get a game, I'll be sure to let you all know via battle report

Depends what role you want the ironclad to fill. Flamer & melta makes it versatile, but not the most efficient, while the double heavy flamer puts serious hurt on infantry with a chance to deal damage to light vehicles parked in close proximity, but relies on assaulting vehicles to kill them reliably.

I tend to run my ironclads with melta/flamer, due to usually having Vulkan, but double heavy flamers have been great fun the times I used them.

[Aqui]

The local GW store I use don't have that many games there (or at least, I haven't seen many - working most weekends means I don't get much of a chance to see what I might be up against), so I don't really know much about general composition of armies (i.e. Marines, SoB, Ork, 'Nid etc), but besides having a "fluffy" list, I'd just want one that's good generally, at least until I get enough models so I have more options.  So I suppose one Melta and one Flamer.  Further down the line I could just get the bitz to get more arms for my Dread.  I haven't dabbled in magnets, although it has been something I've been mulling over for a while.

[Sigismund's Fury]

Luckly here in south FL we've lighten up on FW. Playing against the Lucius with ironclad, its just castle up time. If anything it just screws around with my deployment. I dont really see the all the hubub about FW.

[Bannus]

Christ, Giga. One of these days, we're going to have to play so that I can show you that I'm not just blowing smoke.

When I first started 40k in 5th ed, I used to run a droppoded ironclad or venerable. They NEVER lived through the first turn. Maybe I got off a charge once. Because of this, you could say I'm kinda prejudiced against droppoded dreads.

That is why we have threads like this one throughout this forum: To help players get the most out of units that they are struggling to utilize. ;)

[Aqui]

Christ, Giga. One of these days, we're going to have to play so that I can show you that I'm not just blowing smoke.

When I first started 40k in 5th ed, I used to run a droppoded ironclad or venerable. They NEVER lived through the first turn. Maybe I got off a charge once. Because of this, you could say I'm kinda prejudiced against droppoded dreads.

That is why we have threads like this one throughout this forum: To help players get the most out of units that they are struggling to utilize.

Bannus, I'm one player who'll need all the help they can get :lol:

[Stormshadow]

This may be going against your fluff, but have you thought about deploying the Ironclad together with Sternguard?

Have a 10 man unit of Sternguards armed with melta and/or plasma and drop pod them together with an Ironclad with two flamers Hunter killers and frag assault launcher. If you combat squad the Sternguard as they come down they can hit and probably kill or cripple 2 targets. The ironclad will compliment them by supplying 2 HF’s to deal with tar pit blobs or units hiding in cover, It will also be a great cc deterrent and supply unlimited range fire support. In addition your enemy will now have 3 dangerous units in his deployment zone to deal with instead of one, and you have two pods to block line of sight with. Think of the combined power tis group has, Plasma/melta, Special issue ammunition, heavy flamers, missiles, and S10 I4 AP2 cc attacks, they can do anything! :)

[Aqui]

This may be going against your fluff, but have you thought about deploying the Ironclad together with Sternguard?

Have a 10 man unit of Sternguards armed with melta and/or plasma and drop pod them together with an Ironclad with two flamers Hunter killers and frag assault launcher. If you combat squad the Sternguard as they come down they can hit and probably kill or cripple 2 targets. The ironclad will compliment them by supplying 2 HF’s to deal with tar pit blobs or units hiding in cover, It will also be a great cc deterrent and supply unlimited range fire support. In addition your enemy will now have 3 dangerous units in his deployment zone to deal with instead of one, and you have two pods to block line of sight with. Think of the combined power tis group has, Plasma/melta, Special issue ammunition, heavy flamers, missiles, and S10 I4 AP2 cc attacks, they can do anything!

I've never considered Sternguard and Vanguard Marines as I never really understood their place in the Chapter, or rather I understand that they are Tactical and Assault Marines of a Chapter's First Company, but I never really understand what differences there were from their "regular" counterparts in the other Companies. I realise that they have better options, but because I've never used them, or seen them used in a battle, I've never seen their value.

It's something to consider. Aside from using a Drop pod or should I get a Storm Raven, it does make sense for the Dread to have an "escort" of some kind. I'll have to read up on some battle reports and see if they're an option I'd consider taking.

Thanks for the reply ^_^

[Ravenfeld]

Aquil I forbid you from using a Contemptor as your Clan Master! I'm the only person who can do that! Hahaha!

 

Over all I am pretty excited for your DIY Chapter, and would love to see pictures. Naturally, I am solidly behind Deus on this one. I think that the Ironclad is a solid tool for any Iron Hand player and I personally intend to run two, one for cooking infantry, one for smashing vehicles.. and when used in tandem you can make some people cry! Of course I am also planning on owning 8 Drop Pods & 2 Lucius Pattern Drop Pods... so it might be a division of play styles thing.

 

I also think the Storm Raven is a solid solid choice for giving your Dreads some mobility. I recently got one in a trade and it made its debut in an apocalypse game last weekend. Flew in from reserves, blew up a Manticore & a Basilisk turn one with power of the machine spirit. Flew up to an objective, dumped my stern guard + lysander counts as (Lord Boreden, Keeper of the Gate, Bulwark of Golgoth... yeah that's how I roll) and an autocannon dread which peppered all nearby threats! Now was that the end of it, no, because the Storm Raven then went toe to toe with a Storm Eagle and... got penned by a tl-multi melta and crashed and burned... but hey! It still did really well.

 

In short, a pair of Storm Ravens would make your Dreads mobile, give you flying transports for your pretty infantry, AND act as mobile firing platforms all for the low low cost of a couple hundred points & change, depending on layout. They're the land raiders of the sky! Thumbs up.

 

EDIT: Also, your understanding of the Stern / Vanguard is pretty spot on. They are just suped up versions of their more regular counter-parts. The main differences for Stern is the special issue ammo which gives them a lot more versatility in dealing with threats, and the ability to take more special weapons (specifically combi weapons) gives them even MORE versatility. One of my favorite units hands down.

 

Vanguard suffer from the "super toys" syndrome. They can have a lot, and I mean a lot, of shiny trinkets. That means they are more dangerous but also far far far more costly. I am not a huge fan of assault marines to begin with, so I haven't really used them. I have seen a player at my store field a 520 point unit that deep struck, mishapped, and lost 4 marines before it landed, then got peppered by sternguard and put to rest. I think two made it into the assault with the stern, whose 20 combat blade attacks cut them both down without casualty. Sufficed to say, not very impressed.

[Aqui]

If I do get a Contemptor Dread, it won't be for a while :lol:

 

As for pictures etc, if you go to my Liber Victorum topic, you'll see them and find out that Bayadom (my Ironclad Dread) kicked some serious butt for Manus! ^_^

 

I can see the benefit for Storm Ravens, but it'll be some time before I can afford to get even one.  But when I do, I'll be sure to post pictures ^_^