The thin red line... FWs inclusion in your army

[egon1six]

The real reason GW and most tournies do NOT allow FW is due to the simple fact that GW wants the players to be on the same level as everyone else. Here is what I mean: I Money Bags Scrooge can afford to buy up all the expensive models with all the bling and be able to play that in a tourney. Compared to Average Joe who works 9-5 and has to budget his hard earned money to spend on the hobby he loves. Now lets say both players amass 1.5K points and are facing against each other in a tourney. How do you think Average Joe is going to feel knowing that his opponent who is obviously weathier than him with a better looking army with better ruleset knowing he will probably loose because he didnt have the money to field the best and the brightest? GW and most tournies are only trying to keep the playing field level. Now I am not knocking FW or going to go into GW pricing. I am just using this as an example and a different POV. Think Devil's Advocate for GW My 2 cents.

[Bryan Blaire]

Egon1six, that's why I would prefer to let anyone play with FW rules regardless of whether they have the model for it. I really wish the books had more stuff for non-Imperials to be more "fair" to all players and were more widely available. My GW store is still stocking FW books, but I understand that it's no longer common because they pulled them off the GW website (a move I don't understand).

 

I think that any tournament based on GW products of any stripe are hardly what anyone could call balanced though.

 

All that said, I'll just leave this be, as I don't use much FW stuff and the people I play with don't have much a problem with FW given all the new stuff swirling around that has changed the balance of the game.

 

Hope you guys can have a better discussion than I could help with!

[egon1six]

I agree with that Bryan. I have no problem letting someone use FW rules with GW minis. But you will always have that one guy out there and we all know his name ryhmes with Fidler! I too love FW just you do not see enough of it. And I am a firm believer in everything in moderation. The key to this whole shabang is if you want to buy FW buy it! If you and your opponent want to play with FW then play! If not oh well life goes on. I understand why GW holds back on FW. I just wonder when they are going to release the hounds, so to speak!

[Onisuzume]

Where's my stick? I wanna beat the dead horse too!

 

Okay, on a more serious note, and in line with the spirit of the game:

If you think you can't have fun playing a battle wich includes FW models (Super-Heavies excluded for regular play), then I pity you.

Seriously, its a game, you play to have fun. Does FW models come with a special rule saying "you can't have fun when fielding this unit"? No.

Now, stop whining about it and lets play our games and have our fun.

My GW store is still stocking FW books, but I understand that it's no longer common because they pulled them off the GW website (a move I don't understand).

Probably a financial reason. If stocking them at GW stores costs more than the profit it generates, away they go.

The real reason GW and most tournies do NOT allow FW is due to the simple fact that GW wants the players to be on the same level as everyone else.

Draigowing anyone?

Or a wide variety of other cookie-cutter lists we've had in the past?

Something's telling me that reason is a load of cowcach.

Pricing has nothing to do with it.

[HsojVvad]

Well I was in the camp, of no FW allowed, but after reading BB here, I have changed my mind. The only thing I ask of, is I don't like surprises that are not in the book.

 

One reason why I stopped going to my gaming group, was some people decided on a whole that some rules in the BRB would not be used. Well any rule in the BRB should be used, UNLESS it's said ahead of time what is used or what is not used. It should not be decided what rules are used and what is not used in a stranger pick up game. Those are house rules you are imposing on someone then.

 

So playing with strangers in a pick up game, I would like an explanation of why FW is being used. Is it for fun, but it's a crappy unit, or it's for, It's powerfull I will wipe you up or what ever other reason. At least this way, since I don't have anything but my codex and rule book we can agree to some rules that can at least counter the FW if it's too over powered and I don't have anything to counter it and wouldn't be able to counter it if I didn't think I would be up against it.

 

Hope that makes sense. :)

[Onisuzume]

Define "powerful/overpowered"?

Back in þe olde days (pre-apocalypse/6th), that was super-heavies and flyers by default, since they could be impossible to take out unprepared with some armies.

Still, even some codex-units are somewhat overpowered.

One reason why I stopped going to my gaming group, was some people decided on a whole that some rules in the BRB would not be used.

Well, I'd say that flyers shouldn't be used unless agreed upon in advance, FW-style.

[Agerjag]

Define "powerful/overpowered"?

Back in þe olde days (pre-apocalypse/6th), that was super-heavies and flyers by default, since they could be impossible to take out unprepared with some armies.

Still, even some codex-units are somewhat overpowered.

One reason why I stopped going to my gaming group, was some people decided on a whole that some rules in the BRB would not be used.

Well, I'd say that flyers shouldn't be used unless agreed upon in advance, FW-style.

Thats pretty reasonable right now because not everyone has flyers, but once they are phased in should be fine. Really it comes down to there are alot of abusable things in FW. Dont get me wrong there are some of those in the core game as well. Draigo wing is really easy to counter these days. Its played so often that people have figured out good counters and how to play against it. I don't see it do nearly as well now as it did when it was first released. That being said its enough to keep track of the exploitable combos in regular 40k not to mention adding tons of new units many of them undercosted for what they do compared to similar GW choices. If both players use FW this is not much of an issue but saying that you should have fun when you dont have the models to support yourself in a forge world environment is a little ridiculous. Unless you enjoy games that are lopsided against you. It introduced alot of mechanics that you just dont expect except on maybe some special characters. Like assaulting out of deepstrike(Lucius Pattern Drop pods, Zagstruk). Like I have said previously if you enjoy adding all these things then go for it. Have fun. But expecting everyone to agree with your close minded assertion that if you dont play FW, you dont like fun is ludicrous. I personally enjoy playing Core games, FW games, Apoc, Cities of Death, Planetstrike and even Battlefleet Gothic with played out boarding actions. The core game is really just a different game from adding expansions. Play what you like and dont diss on others for disagreeing with the game style you like to play.

[Yancke]

I like the FW stuff. (excluding Apoc) cus it gives some of the weaker codexes a couple of options they dont have. 

[Agerjag]

I like the FW stuff. (excluding Apoc) cus it gives some of the weaker codexes a couple of options they dont have. 

This is true, but requires you and your gaming group to do a case by case basis of what should be allowed. Which I suggest with any expansions.

[Onisuzume]

Like assaulting out of deepstrike(Lucius Pattern Drop pods, Zagstruk).

C:SM Vanguard Veterans - Heroic Intervention?

Think it let them assault on the turn they DS.

At least it ain't half as bad as turn-one assaults.

This is true, but requires you and your gaming group to do a case by case basis of what should be allowed. Which I suggest with any expansions.

Same could be said about regular codices.

Draigowings, for example.

Or the old turn-one-assault DE force.

Oh, and does anyone remember those Tau sitting behind those devilfish?

Plenty of non-FW abuse in the past, so why get all upset about FW-related abuse?

[Brother Immolator]

So can I ask something? I will not take place into this but please do answer me this:

 

Why are we still having standard land raiders in the codices when for 40 more points we can field spartans or contemptors?Or mortis?This can go on and on. Why do we need codices when we can simply purchuse everything from forge world and throw in two tac squads and call it a day?

 

Oh wait I know the answer: Because we want to save 40 points.NOT. OH how about this? Flexibility.NOT

 

Also on the varius units and compositions depicted as codex unbalanced, most of you forget that most of them dont exist anymore due to the rules sifting from 6th edition and the last one (warp quake) will most likely be adressed in a couple of days with the new demon codex.

[Polythemus]

Great discussions all. Id like to open up a new avenue though. While there are a few overpowered forge world units most arent. Baring that in mind all enemies of the unforgiven must be countered somehow. What are the forgeworld threats and who among you have encountered them? I have not played enough to know all the threats that exist out there. So maybe we could put together a bit more of a tactica regarding those rarities that make it on to the table. Listed below are the few forgeworld models i have seen listed in batreps and vidreps on the interwebz. Perhaps we could start with some of these...

 

Csm

Blight drones nurgle flyer, rare to see due to helldrake prominence. Can use a template or krak missle with large blast, explodes with last HP lost, of which its only got 2.

Few other flyers i know of but probally more likely to see the blight drone.

 

Tau

Xv-9 suits and remora drones (plus the other flyers) dont know much here except that remora has some typical high strength low ap weaps

Tetras get a 2+ coversave for moving and put out a number of markerlights per turn.

 

Eldar and deldar

Lots of grav tanks and their vector dancing flyers. If anyone has ever played against vector dancers, they are a b-$&@ to deal with and will likely dominate the air.

 

Necrons? I think theyve only got a few.

 

Orks stompa comes to mind.

 

Imperial guard no idea

Avengers, other flyers

Sabreplatforms

Special characters

 

Tyranids

Hierodules, harridans?

 

Then of course we have the times when brother marine must battle brother marine...

Contemptors esp. Blood angels

Land raider variants

Helios platforms

Those strange terminator variants

 

Anyone got any tips for any of these or stories of playing against them? Let us know so that the unforgiven might be prepared!

[HsojVvad]

I believe we should say what is over powered and what is not over powered. This would help out people who know nothing of FW make a better decision to allow it or not. The more the understanding the less fear of playing something FW.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Step one: Buy a FW book!!!

Step two: Get over the postage price (I'm looking at you America :P ), even with it they are better value than GW stuff.

Step three: Enjoy a larger ooniverse

[Polythemus]

I believe we should say what is over powered and what is not over powered. This would help out people who know nothing of FW make a better decision to allow it or not. The more the understanding the less fear of playing something FW.

While ignoring the claim of needing to ban anything, Im gonna go ahead and say the only real overpowered model that i know of is the droppod (deathwind?) that lets you assault on the turn you arrive. This kind of breaks the game as there has been a hard wall put up btween deepstrike and assault. this is especially a prob when its loaded with an ironclad dreadnaught. Even then there are some (vanguard vets, ymgarl genestelers) that do this within the normal rulset but thats why i wanted to put up some ideas about how to counter these threats.

[Interrogator Stobz]

P: It's the Lucius Pod, and it's not that OP.

Like you say players find ways to counter it the same as any other unit (I'm thinking the Furioso Dread is brutal with it, but then it is brutal deployed by Storm Chicken too ;) ). Put the right sort of tarpitters between it and it's intended target type in deployment and then kill it at your leisure. It's not like you don't know its coming. A shooty Dread or melta Vets in Pods can cause the same DS carnage by shooting instead of assaulting, the end result is no real difference. Now with snap shooting CC is less effective too but that is another discussion ;)

[Polythemus]

True enough stobz, its the best example i could come up with. That being said i wanted to set people on alert, so that the reluctant generals out there would have some ideas. Knowing that theres always a gameplan should help us all out.

[Master Avoghai]

I think the main problem of the OP, was, like in every situations, extremism.

 

FW like apoc, death from the skies or cities of death, is an add-on, an extension, I think we all agree with that.

 

And like every extension you have to warn your opponent that you'll use it.

 

Have you ever proposed a game to a friend and once you start to deploy, told him: "oh by the way, we'll use the cities of death rules"?

No of course, because you want him to build a list made for this extension.

 

I think it's the same with FW. Just warn him that you'll use FW stuff and the type of (flyer, big creature...) so that he may be prepared.

 

 

What I don't like is extremism.

No I'm not obliged to accept FW stuff every game. A friend wanted to test his DA list recently. So I've fielded my 2000pts tzeentch alliance list. Just Deamons and TS. Fluff and no FW stuff inside (except the tzeentch dread but it's played like a standard metabrutus). He fielded a LR helios. Ok he wanted to test if it's a good add on, but before testing FW stuff, maybe you could try the standard entries before?

 

Same thing on the other side. I don't like people who systematically refuse FW "because it's overpowered"... No it's not more overpowered than GW. I have a Damocles... Do you find it overpowered.

Because people with money can win more easily... They will always have an advantage anyway. When rules change, at every new codex of edition they have the money to buy the GW minis that will crush your army. Do you cry for it? Is it a reason to refuse facing an original and nice army? No. Try it before talking without knowledge.

 

 

Recently I've read people complaining about the fact that death from the skies wasn't translated in foreign language. One said that his group of players will refuse playing with it as they systematically refuse rules in English (so FW too)by fear of not understanding all the rules <_<

 

Man this is again one of the dumbest reason for extremism I've ever read. We're in 2013, it's time to learn a foreign language to find a job...

[Panzerbjørn]

Tau

Xv-9 suits and remora drones (plus the other flyers) dont know much here except that remora has some typical high strength low ap weaps

Tetras get a 2+ coversave for moving and put out a number of markerlights per turn.

As a Tau player, I feel I can comment on these.

The XV-9 suit is useful, but the weaponry is very very situational and one of them are downright rubbish.

They are, however, some of the nicest models FW has made (IMO of course) so I have several of them and I like to use them in very high points games where it doesn't matter too much that they are overcosted.

Remoras are rubbish for their points 2 seeker missiles and a TL Burst cannon. I wouldn't call AP5 for 'low AP'.

Tetras get 3+ when they move normally, but if they want a 2+, then they can't shoot AFAIK. Which kinda negate their purpose.

The Barracuda is horrifically overcosted when compared to Vendettas, Storm Talons and Dakkajets.

And to the OP:

Argument 1; I agree totally. I don't have all the codices but I'm not going to tell people they can't use C:DA just because I don't have it. Same with Forge World, I don't have all the IAs, but I'm not going to tell someone they can only use the rules in the books I own.

Argument 2; More and more tournaments do. Personally I think the TOs that don't are little kittens ;-)

Argument 3; FW is not OP anymore. Yes, they were once upon a time, but that was along time ago. For example, the first incarnation of the Lucius Drop Pod was a horrific beast. Then it got updated and was ok. Now that you can no longer assault on the turn you deepstrike, AFAIK(?), it's pointless. It still looks good though, so I have two of them.

The closest thing to OP in Forge World, IMO, is a Red Scorpions marine list. They are crazy brutal.

--------

Personally, I'm tired of so many of the 3+ armies that so many people bring to the gaming clubs, that I hope people bring Forge World just for a bit of variety.

The financial aspect is not a valid point in my opinion. This is a hella expensive hobby, and I don't see why I should be limited by my opponents spending choices. He might want to have more landraiders, but doesn't feel he can afford it, does that mean I shouldn't be able to field my 6 Land Raiders if I so choose?

But Forge World is not Games Workshop

That may seem to be the case, but on my Forge World books, there is the nice little Games Workshop logo that I also see on my rulebook and the codices. To me, that means it's GW as well.

The absolutely only argument that I honestly cannot find a counter to is this:

But Throne of Skulls doesn't allow Forge World rules. If GW's own tournament doesn't allow them, why should we?

Recently I've read people complaining about the fact that death from the skies wasn't translated in foreign language. One said that his group of players will refuse playing with it as they systematically refuse rules in English (so FW too)by fear of not understanding all the rules

That is just downright dumb. English is my second language, and I learned darned good English from playing AD&D/WFB/WFRP/40k in the original language O.o

[Master Avoghai]

The absolutely only argument that I honestly cannot find a counter to is this:

But Throne of Skulls doesn't allow Forge World rules. If GW's own tournament doesn't allow them, why should we?

And so?

Throne of Skulls doesn't allow apocalypse units or cities of death rules or death from the skies rules... Does that mean that those totally official add-ons are illegal?

As always, you have to discuss your opponent where you'll play, the amount of points, the army you will play... Is that SO difficult to add to this discussion :"I'd like to play my +insert FW model here+ for this battle, would you mind if I do so?"

Available answers :

- "Sure in this case I'll also give a try to my +insert other FW model here+

- "Sure, would you mind showing me the stats so I can be aware of what I'll face?"

- "Sure, maybe you have a doubt of its effectivness against a certain type of unit, maybe I can bring this unit so that we may test"

- "Well, I feel uncomfortable with FW models, would you mind making a list with and a list without and making 2 battles to compare?"

why making things more difficult than they are in reality?

[Agerjag]

The absolutely only argument that I honestly cannot find a counter to is this:

But Throne of Skulls doesn't allow Forge World rules. If GW's own tournament doesn't allow them, why should we?

And so?

Throne of Skulls doesn't allow apocalypse units or cities of death rules or death from the skies rules... Does that mean that those totally official add-ons are illegal?

As always, you have to discuss your opponent where you'll play, the amount of points, the army you will play... Is that SO difficult to add to this discussion :"I'd like to play my +insert FW model here+ for this battle, would you mind if I do so?"

Available answers :

- "Sure in this case I'll also give a try to my +insert other FW model here+

- "Sure, would you mind showing me the stats so I can be aware of what I'll face?"

- "Sure, maybe you have a doubt of its effectivness against a certain type of unit, maybe I can bring this unit so that we may test"

- "Well, I feel uncomfortable with FW models, would you mind making a list with and a list without and making 2 battles to compare?"

why making things more difficult than they are in reality?

Throne of Skulls is a 40k Tournament, not a 40k expansion tournament, its best just to think of them as different games really. Preparing for one tournament can be quite a bit different from preparing for the other. There are different strategies and things that were good are less so and vice versa. I wholly agree with the rest of your post. If you make up a unit that you think is playable and fluffy and your opponent says you can try it, then by all means play and have fun. Communication is key, its all you need really.

[Master Avoghai]

But that was the point of my argument : FW is a 40k expansion, hence it's normal that GW don't want to include FW add-ons within.

 

However, it could be fun and original to organize a cities of death tournament or a skyfight tournament... That is totally possible, it's just a matter of choice.

[Molloch]

Agreed, a lot of fear is caused by ignorance, not all mind you, some people actually have good reason

For the most part I am okay with FW, they can sometimes be a little over powered when used in combination with something else...

*cough* Lucius pattern drop pod with a death company dread with blood talons*cough*

We fixed that so it's only an Apocalypse option for Blood Angels now; interestingly the complaints were entirely because of the Codex's Furioso Dreadnought option combined with the Dreadnought Drop Pod, we had 0 complaints from people who were angered by any other Codex Dreadnought combined with the Dreadnought Drop Pod...

Where, then, does the issue lie?