Chaplain and I.Chap, Are they worth it?

[GlauG]

~As has been pointed out elsewhere, the Company Master can't take a Bike, so the Master is removed from the comparison for Ravenwing. :)

[facmanpob]

Isn't that what I just said? :)

[Master Avoghai]

I think it's a valid point on the contrary

Taking a mace with a chappy forces you to pay the upgrade to IC. This upgrade is nice but not necessary for a model whose role will be to join a knights squad.

 

So I'm still not convinced of th chappy as 1st or 2nd HQ

[Brom MKIV]

Heres my view on the 3 HQs that can take the mace, ill approach from a ravenwing perspective:

Libby:
the cheapest option straight up. dials in at 135 with bike, mace/axe, conversion field, auspex. Prescience gives rerolls to the unit and dual weapons gives him 3(4) attacks. Seems ideal right? The downside is 2 wounds and just as important, initiative 4. This makes your RWGL want to use stasis when at times rad would be the better option, at least in my build. Also rune priests, shadow in the warp etc still exist and the libby also runs the risk of losing wounds to perils. Still a completely viable option though. If rolling with DWKs or similar then TDA does change the perspective although IMO the delivery of the mace isnt ideal on foot sloggers (6" move and no hit and run!) and if you want the mace wielder as your warlord like I do the libby starts to look a little lackluster.

Interrogator chaplain:
More expensive and a better beatstick. He dials in at 165 with bike, mace/crozius, auspex. He also provides rerolls guaranteed for the first round of combat and dual weapons gives 4(5) attacks. The interrogators appeal over the libby for me is a combination of 3 wounds and initiative 5. He has a cushion of wounds for soaking damage and more importantly he strikes before most units regardless of stasis which frees up my RWGL.

Company master:
Maligned by GW since the dawn of time this guy still has a place I believe. In fact he was my initial go-to choice for my ravenwing army but sadly he never hit the board, but ill elaborate on this later. He dials in at 160 with jump pack, mace/bp, artificer armour, auspex with 4(5) attacks. I'll say this up front though, no rerolls hurts and if your plan is to put the mace in a foot slogging unit the other two options are simply superior. However, if you plan on delivering the mace via assault squad or even black knights then he does warrant consideration simply for his ability to tank wounds with 2+ and option for 3++.

I mentioned earlier that I had initially chosen the company master for my ravenwing army's mace wielder before later changing directions. The main reason I opted out was turbo boost. I value the movement phase above all else and the idea of losing full turbo boost capability started to annoy me, even just in theory. However, I am now reconsidering his value due to the sheer volumn of attention the maces squad receives by my opponents. The unit IS that brutal and IS NOT that survivable when facing an entire army's firepower. Enter the option for 2+ saves.

The master is literally twice as durable as the interrogator and three times that of the libby. Against the most commonly found weapon (S4 ap4 or worse) each character can absorb roughly (and rounded): libby- 40, interrogator- 60, master- 130 shots (this includes fnp on all since im using my cmd squad build for reference but without FNP the difference is still proportionate). Note that the desparity shifts further in the masters favor when considering ap3 weaponry of the non ID variety, although such weaponry is pretty rare it does exist.

The reason for the huge difference in survivability is mostly due to the majority toughness rule. The master is essentially T5 when joined to a bike squad so a bike isnt even missed except in two instances: instant death and turbo boosting. The former is a factor, mostly when considering missiles melta and las (of the three only missiles are really that effective against bikes due to volumn). The latter im not sure of just how much it will affect his unit honestly since he can run while they turbo and move from the front to the back if the extra distance is absolutely necessary.

So there you have my considerations for delivery of the mace, strictly from a ravenwing perspective as I dont really like the prospect of slogging or land raider delivery or the loss of hit and run.

[GlauG]

Isn't that what I just said?

Yes, you ninja'd me as I got distracted while posting. ;)

Brom:

You know, I hadn't considered taking the Master with JP to run alongside Bikers, but with majority Toughness it sounds more viable. For me personally, the inability to Turbo Boost is a liability for how I like to play though, especially as Black Knights or Command Squads can get 2+ Cover when backed up by Dark Shrouds. Essential for those painful first turns!

[Brom MKIV]

I agree completely lack of full turbo boost could be a potential liability although the dark shroud isnt in my list since I would rather take typhoons in that last slot instead.

 

I love my bike interrogator but what im finding (anticipated even) is that the standard and mace, whether together or in seperate units, draw inordinate amounts of fire.

 

I think we all tend to approach theoryhammer from a meq only perspective, and thats fine if thats all we face. However against armies like I commonly face such as nids, orks, crons, dark elder, basically all xenos armies which are capable of insane volumn of medium strength ap4+ weaponry, whole units of bikes literally disappear with only 3+ saves.

 

Anyway the units which really scare my army are things like baal preds, dakka fex broods and dakka flyrants, nobz bikers and lootas, cron anni barges, gauss blasters, splinter weaponry and well anything dark eldar really.. you get the idea.

A dakka fex unit will evaporate an entire bike unit with only 3+ saves. The libby is guaranteed dead along with the unit, even the interrogator will usually die but sometimes survive on 1 wound, meanwhile the master would often walk away untouched and his unit unscathed.

 

Its true the dark shroud + turbo could help here but then the unit (or any unit which wants to benefit) cant fire.

 

Anyway not saying which is best because at this point im not sure of my preference. I may toss a dark shroud in to evaluate although I dont like the idea of basically going defensive to protect an offensive weapon. Also being worthless vs baleflamers is annoying as well. My army has enough weakness against those already.

[GlauG]

To be honest, very few armies should be mobile enough that you cannot get into position for shooty devastation or close combat by your turn 2 after your scout move plus a turn or turbo boost. Between a 2+ cover save and FNP from the Standard of Fortitude, you are pretty much set for anything besides a sneaky Flamestorm cannon, or a lucky Helldrake arriving turn 2. If you have first turn, your enemy might deploy differently, but this still holds mostly true. Going a little OT though!

 

For me, I had been looking at a Librarian, but my preference for 'always on' powers coupled with hit-and-run means that I might well try the Interrogator Chaplain as my secondary biker HQ.

[Brother Immolator]

Stick the interrogator with termy armor and a mace of redemption (optional but too good to pass) in a DW knight squad and watch them murder things. I did it yesterday and I left three guys crying manly tears.

The last one was a heretic so his cries where a balsam to my unforgiven soul

I either go with this option or a libby, but with the knights I find the I-Chapp (IpAD ) to be golden. Enchanced survivability, great statline, Great one use power and rerolls. Asking for more isnt funny.

[GlauG]

Out of curiosity, has anyone here considered trying to use a Libby or Chaplain on bike (with a Scouting unit of some kind of Ravenwing) to get a turn 1 or 2 assault kill with the Porta-rack?  Teleport Homers are not unheard of amongst other Marine armies here, and there are a number of DA armies with Ravenwing now in my meta, so it's possibly worthwhile to try...  I admit, turn 1 Assault is unlikely unless you get second go though.

[facmanpob]

iirc, Characters on bikes don't get the Scouts special rule. also, units that make a scout move can't assault the first turn. So a 1st turn assault is going to be very difficult I think. 2nd turn would be possible though.

[GlauG]

They don't get Scouts but they do if they join a unit that does, I believe. And I guess it would rely on your opponent going first then!

[facmanpob]

They don't get Scouts but they do if they join a unit that does, I believe. And I guess it would rely on your opponent going first then!

Oh yeah, just checked the BGB and the Scouts rule is written the same way as Stubborn, so you're right, so long as the IC joins the Scout unit in deployment, the special rule is transferred :)

[march10k]

I think it's a valid point on the contrary

Taking a mace with a chappy forces you to pay the upgrade to IC. This upgrade is nice but not necessary for a model whose role will be to join a knights squad.

 

So I'm still not convinced of th chappy as 1st or 2nd HQ

It's totally necessary.  First of all, for the points, the upgrade from C to IC is awesome, even just in terms of points/wound, even taking instagibs into account.  Second, the sort of enemies that the knights are designed to SMITE are way too lethal for a mere chaplain to face them...you NEED the upgrade, just for the chance to survive.

 

TDAIC as first HQ?  Never.  That's Belial, Azrael, or Zeke...but as a second HQ?  If your first one is anyone other than Zeke, hells yeah!  I find librarians LESS useful, not more, in the current edition.  The mega-nerf of the PH makes them useless on defense...and D6ing their powers makes them unreliable or generic (always take prescience) on offense.  OTOH, the IC cleans a libby's clock in melee, hatred works 100% of the time, and they're fluffier, to boot.  I make an exception for Zeke...Power level 3, +1WS, artificer armor, and mind worm make him well worth the points.  If I could find the points to take Azzy and Zeke in the same list, that would be amazing...but as it is, it's a choice between Bels, Azzy, and Zeke for me...and so it's always Belial who makes the cut...but I'll take a generic IC over a generic libby any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

[facmanpob]

A mastery level 2 Librarian with Telepathy powers can be a pretty good force multiplier and at 130 points with a PFG is still cheaper than an Int-Chappy with Mace of Redemption. But the thing about Librarians is that when they work they are great, but they always have a chance of being useless. The Chaplain is always going to be useful with the Mace.

 

As a final point, I don't see the basic Chaplain as being of any use whatsoever. If I am taking a Chaplain, he is going to be an Interrogator Chaplain, and he's going to have the Mace! :)

 

 

 

....and he's probably going to be on a bike!;)

[Tiger9gamer]

I usually take my integrator chappy as my only HQ >.> but I wrote about it before me thinks.

[PensacolaWarhammer]

A rule of thumb that I've had through a number of edition that still holds true.

 

Librarians are buff and debuff characters that are not meant to be in close combat; Chaplins are minor buff characters that are meant to be in close combat.

 

Librarians are not bad, but they do a much better job in the back field buffing troops and messing with your opponents units. A chaplian is meant to buff the unit he is with as he smashes the face in of some poor sod. I think the discussion comes down to player prefacerence. I haven't tried a Librarian in an assault unit for Dark Angels, nor have I put him in a group of Deathwing. I have tried a Intergator Chaplian on bike with the Mace of Redemption and it was fun. I wasn't rolling over whole units, but I was still taking out guys.

 

Finally, I agree with the assessment that the regular chaplain is almost useless. I say almost because I'm sure there is some way for the regular Chaplain to be of interest. This is why I feel it would have been nice if Dark Angels got regular Chaplians as an elite choice.