Ravenwing combat squads still confusing me...

[Polythemus]

Hi so i am still confused about the rule for ravenwing combat squads the question is when can you squad and how does it effect your deployment.

 

You can take 6 bikers in a squad and break them into groups of three. This seems clear.

 

If you have only three and add an attack bike you can break it down as three bikers and the attack bike.

 

If you take six bikers and an attack bike, can you break it down into, 3 3 and the AB? Can the same thing be done if you add a speeder?

 

Can members of seperate combat squads deploy onto the table at different times? eg a reserved group with two combat squads rolls and enters play if they outflank do they roll seperately on the table to enter? Or can one element enter play at a different time, eg. Three bikes turn 2 and ab turn 3?

 

Thanks for your consideration.

[Raven of the Wing]

the RAS (3 bikes or 6 bikes, combat squad bikes, AB and LS) all deploy seperatly but must deploy at the same time.

 

or at least thats my understanding.

[Thedead]

I get confused with this as well.

[Dam13n]

The way I think about it you have:

 

3-6 bikes

0-1 attack bike

0-1 land speeder

 

Now the land speeder, as a vehicle, can never join the units of bikes so is always a seperate entity, that leaves the bikes and attack bike.

 

Then comes the confusing part.  In a normal (vanilla) bike squad, the attack bike is an attached model and always considered part of the unit (even when determining what makes up each half of a combat squad).  However the Ravenwing Combat Squad rule states that this isn't the case for the Ravenwing and the attack bike is always a seperate entity (like the land speeder).

 

In other words, you aren't buying 1 unit, you are buying up to 3 (bike squadron, attack bike and land speeder) in 1 FOC slot, kind-of like an IG infantry platoon.

 

The splitting of the bike squad in half only applies if you have 6 bikes in the squad and has no impact on the attack bike or the land speeder which are already seperate units in their own rights.

[Polythemus]

ok combat squad part answered, but does that mean they can deploy seperately? eg bikes on the board, attack bike in reserve?

[cielaq]

Ravenwing Attack Bikes and Land speeders are totally separate units from the moment of purchase (pg. 47 of the Codex).

"The squadron's Attack Bike and Land Speeder are purchased together with the squadron's bikes, but from then on they operate as completely independent units of one model."

[Dam13n]

Polythemus - If I recall correctly it states "they are deployed at the same time as the squadron's bikes" so I would think the answer to that would be no I'm afraid.  (unless my memory is deficient :P )

[cielaq]

Dam13n, I've quoted the whole rule regarding Attack Bike & Speeder - there is nothing requiring them to deploy together/at the same time any longer. I believe you are mistaking the rule from the old edition of the codex. :)

[Polythemus]

Ok sounds good. Outflanking attack bikes it is.

[Raven of the Wing]

yeah, i think that the "must deploy together" rule was from previous codex, my bad.

[Dam13n]

Fair enough, that's why I implied that my memory might be playing tricks on me.

[Polythemus]

Ok one more issue here. Assume a full RAS with 6bike, attack bike and speeder. So if i choose not to combat squad, i can outflank with the speeders since they gain scout. If i combat squad i can still reserve and outflank with with all bikes (lets say 6 plus attack bike) but attack bikes will roll to enter for a table edge seperately, while speeders must start on the table or enter from my deployment zone. Is this about right?

[Raeven]

Sounds good.  Each combat squaded unit counts towards the reserve total individually, and deploys as such.

[Cactus]

Ok one more issue here. Assume a full RAS with 6bike, attack bike and speeder. So if i choose not to combat squad, i can outflank with the speeders since they gain scout. If i combat squad i can still reserve and outflank with with all bikes (lets say 6 plus attack bike) but attack bikes will roll to enter for a table edge seperately, while speeders must start on the table or enter from my deployment zone. Is this about right?

Huh? The only land speeder in Codex: Dark Angels with the Scouts rule is the darkshroud. Check pages 48 and 49 of the codex.

It goes like this:

1. Buy a Ravenwing attack squadron consisting of 2 bikers and 1 sergeant.
2. Add 3 more bikers. You now have a unit of 6 models (5 bikes and 1 sergeant).
3. Attack bikes with multimeltas are great, so buy one of those. You now have a 6-man unit and a totally separate unit of 1 attack bike. (C:DA p47)
4. Having used a FOC slot on all these bikes you can get a land speeder without using an additional Fast Attack slot. Great! Buy a land speeder and check the Ravenwing support squadron entry for points cost and options. (We all know it's going to be a land speeder typhoon, right? ) You now have a 6-man unit and a totally separate unit of 1 attack bike and another totally separate unit of 1 land speeder. One FOC slot, 3 units. Happy times.

All the above is only relevant to picking your army list. When you come to play the game your army includes whatever else you bought and a 6-man bike squad and an attack bike and a land speeder. Remember these are 3 separate units. Page 47 says you can split the 6-man squad into 2 combat squads of 3 models each, following the rules on page 28 immediately before deployment.

The attack bike can be deployed normally or can outflank because Ravenwing attack bikes have the Scouts rule. Each of the combat squads (or the 6-man squad if you chose not to split them) can be deployed normally or can outflank because Ravenwing bikes have the Scouts rule. The land speeder can be deployed normally or be kept in reserve and arrive by deep strike because Ravenwing land speeders have the Deep Strike rule. How you choose to deploy one of these units has no bearing on how you can deploy any of the others because they are separate units (C:DA pages 47 and 28).

Note that if you split the 6-man unit into combat squads you can deploy 1 combat squad normally and outflank with the other. I only just realised this and it's a great way to get two outflanking meltaguns and still have a scouting unit with teleport homers to call down the Deathwing!

Also note that if you're worried about your outflanking unit(s) arriving on the wrong side of the battlefield you can choose to put them in reserve without outflanking and have them arrive from your table edge. I'm not sure if that would ever be the best tactical choice though.

Having typed out a lengthy breakdown of the previous version of the Ravenwing combat squad rules last year I have to say that this form is much more straightforward!

[Polythemus]

I guess i figured that since the information your quoting is from an area with the heading ravenwing combatsquads, the information was pertinent only when you have decided to combat squad the RAS. It would seem that it is instead always in effect.

[Cactus]

Yes, it would be clearer if there was a separate 'Ravenwing Attack Squadron' rule that dealt with the attack bike and land speeder. That's GW for ya. *shrug*

Having said that, I do prefer tightly focussed rules that require us to cross-reference to rules that try to encompass every interaction and become invalidated with the next codex or edition of the main rulebook. The latter way, which was prevalent in second edition 40k and in Warhammer around the same period, caused too many 'unstoppable force meets immovable object' situations.

It probably helps that I've never read the current Codex: Space Marines. I only have previous Dark Angels rules to confuse me!