Bolt Pistols or Boltguns in the Death Company?

[Deadpool1713]

So I've heard this argument for a while and I can't seem to come to a decision . Do you take bolt pistols or bolters with your chainswords (or power weapons, if you so choose) in your death company? I think there are good arguments for both sides. just so you know, this was typed very early in the morning (if you didn't notice the time it says it was posted at) and I didn't bother too much with making this immaculate (as far as spelling, grammar, and all of that fun stuff) so please bear with me on this one I'm also using some faces in this to hopefully make it at least 10% exciting to read. There is actually a limit of 8 per post. I had to go back through this and delete A LOT. so in case you didn't know, there is a strict 8 face limit.

So here is what we have:

let's use a 10 man death company squad for an example

On one hand: Bolt pistols: 12", same S and AP as a bolter, 1 shot, 1 extra attack in close combat

Pros: has the same S and AP as its counterpart, no points issue (free!), and my personal favorite: extra attack in close combat

Cons: Shorter range, 10 shots before an assault as opposed to 20

Total of 60 shots and attacks if added together

On the other: Bolter: 24", at 12" they rapid fire, same S and AP again

Pros: They out shoot pistols 2:1 at 12" with rapid fire, Relentless! DC can still assault after they rapid fire, no points issue again, when they are too far to assault anything they can still be useful with the 24" shot from their bolters

Cons: losing 10 S5 attacks in close combat

ALSO!!!!!: with the extra shots you could potentially kill enough of the enemy squad to make you miss out on an assault if your charge roll is crappy enough. so instead of killing the whole squad or at least inflicting major casualties to the squad (if you roll well) you kill X amount of their squad (odds are you won't take a squad out with just 1 round of bolter fire) and you are left in the open for quite a bit and your unit becomes a magnet for bullets. I would not count this as a major con though, because it shouldn't happen that often unless you are just that unlucky. The same could be said for the bolt pistol as well though! A couple lucky shots could leave you just out of charge range depending on your roll. I bring this up under the bolter aspect of this because I believe that if this situation were to happen, it would be more likely to happen with the bolter due to the fact that you have double the volume of shots from the squad therefore doubling the chances of this happening. Again, I wouldn't be too overly concerned about it but it is a possibility nonetheless (in my opinion a smaller possibility, but it has happened on occasion) and it should be mentioned for that reason alone. of course there is the possibility that your 10 extra attacks don't do anything, or your extra bolter shots decide to not do anything at all. There are a long list of what ifs.... anyways:

a total of 60 shots and attacks if compiled (again)

OPTION THREE! WHAT? THERE IS AN OPTION THREE?!?!?! :yes, take a mix of each!: I know it seems like I'm answering my own question a bit, but wait a second and I'll explain why I think this isn't a solution or why it shouldn't even be considered one. let's assume 5 of each for this. So we have range from 12-24" (bolters reaching a bit farther obviously), same S and AP, no points dilemma, anywhere from 10-15 shots, everyone in the squad can still assault, rapid fire before assault (for those extra shots) you get a bit more of your S5 attacks in close combat AND your rapid fire from the bolters. wait a second though, 15 shots assuming we have our full squad with 5 bolters and 5 bolt pistols and we rapid fire with the bolters before an assault, and then we have 5 death company with 4 attacks on the charge (bolter guys) and then 5 with 5 attacks on the charge (pistol guys) do the math and you still end up with 60 combined shots and attacks at the end of the day. so how would this not work> here is my reasoning on this:

in general, 5 close combat attacks don't perform as well as 10 close combat attacks, and 10 bolter shots don't perform as well as 20 bolter shots. when it comes to picking guns for our death company I think it should be completely one option or the other (if you can come to a decision on what to take) although variety is good in an army, this is where a line needs to be drawn. with the mix, you aren't getting your full potential of both options, which makes sense. That is why that statement was made at the beginning of this "paragraph". one option should chosen for weaponry to ensure optimum killing potential for whatever you choose to give your death company. none of this half stuff. so in short, by taking both, you half the killing potential of both options, so you are better off sticking to one gun.

To prove my point further, let's examine the different combinations we can have within our 10 death company. Let's say bolters on the left, and bolt pistols on the right for this spectrum (X/X)

1/9 2/8 3/7 4/6 5/5 6/4 7/3 8/2 9/1

most pistols equal most bolters

as you move either way on the scale from 5/5, whether it's right or left, one option in the mix becomes less effective and the more effective option is being held back (even if it's just by one gun) from its full killing potential and would work best with a uniform loadout. It can also be seen that with the gun there is less of, it becomes more and more useless with the fewer there are of it. for example, if we look close to the extreme ends of the spectrum, the bolt pistol or boltgun is essentially useless in the squad, and the squad would perform better with consistent weaponry. while in the middle, your options are affected equally resulting in the effectiveness of both being equally held back. again pointing to either uniform loadout, or a new position on the scale. which as explained earlier, points to using the same gun for the whole unit for optimum performance. so after examining the possibilities of taking any mix of bolters and bolt pistols, I would say that it should not even be considered for the reasons listed above . this reverts us back to the two original choices.

so is it worth taking bolt pistols for the extra attacks in close combat? or would it be a better option to trade those extra attacks for the extra shots (and range) you get from a bolter? OR do you have a strong argument for taking a mix of both? I thought about it for quite a while, and it does not sound tactically advantageous any way I look at it. Who knows, maybe you see something that I don't. I've been wrong before.

I am leaning slightly towards the option of bolters, but at the same time, I do enjoy my close combat attacks (ESPECIALLY with death company! ), and that is where I am at an impasse (perhaps other players are too). It also makes it more difficult when considering that when you add the shots and attacks from close combat, they are exactly the same.

(even though the different options provide different variation of different strength attacks)

Thank you for taking the time to read this! I know it goes quite in depth into the topic, but it was interesting to sit and think about for quite a while. I did my best to try to present every aspect of this and I went through it quite a few times to be sure I covered everything I wanted to. Anyways, thanks again! I was going to add a pirate at the end, but I've reached my face limit...and I need to end this sooner or later.....

So now is the time for you to voice your opinion on the matter and your reasoning behind it! (FINALLY!)

[appiah4]

It's really not rocket science.

 

If you're not using them with Bolters and some Power Fists you're doing it wrong.  Basically, the +1A the bolt pistol gives you is not worth risking more wounds unless you're packing a crapload of power weapons, which are useless for the Death Company (which can take hidden fists) anyway.

[Pascalnz]

the one time power weapons on DC might be worth it is on a 5 guy jump pack squad with lemartes in a Raven. 2 swords... or lances:P and a fist. Use the Raven to get them somewhere safe, and away from the main enemy force so that they can clear a flank without much retaliation.  Or force the enemy into a big clump that your drop fragioso's can have a field day with:P win win!!.  I am reaching here of course, taking 10 dc in a raven and a DC dread costs less. At least  the first group is more autonomous after drop off and can be dropped off on the way a lot safer. 

 

ohh, just a matter of overall BA tactics. If you are using Ravens, do put a libby[or libby dread] in one of them with Shield of sanguinius. IF the power goes off they won't be forced to jink, also everything inside also has a cover save... which is really handy if a zooming flyer goes poof, 5+ cover saves are better than nothing:) 9 out of 10 dead dc + garaunteed loss of a hull point or worse on a dread, vs 6 out of 10 dc dead and maybe saving a result on the dread.  

[Drunken Angel]

It all depends on your list design and how you want to play.  A pure BA mech hybrid list will be different to an allied list or a Drop pod list.  This determines  the roll you want your DC to fill.  If your are using them as an assault unit that gets close and fights then bolt pistols and a couple of power weapons.  10 bolt pistol Death Company will destroy 5 terminators with their bare hands on the charge. If you want an autonomous distraction unit deployed from a drop pod that causes trouble in the back lines then 1 fist, bolters and 2 infernus pistols are very distracting.  Its important when taking either bolt pistol or bolter to know their role.  Have you allied in guard troops and want a tough bodyguard unit to deploy near them take DC with bolters.  Want a nasty CC unit from a Raven its a totally different set up.

I love my DC offensively but have expanded their role beyond just combat.  Bolters are more useful when using them to bodyguard things like ADL's or an allied Guard Sabre battery.  As mentioned a drop pod DC with bolters and 2 infernus pistols can often get down and wreck someones day sure they are short ranged but drop pod rules and 6 inch deploy can often virtually give you precision placement.

Pascalnz has touched on the subject of CC you can have your bolter cake and your combat combat cake too.  Librarians are pretty standard for us and divination can be cast on any unit within 12".  Okay so you have 10 bolter DC, up their CC statline by giving them the blessing they wont miss their bolt pistol I can assure you, re-rolling hits makes up for it.  That divination also works on overwatch too and the ensuing combat so dont overlook that particular power with DC.

When deciding on bolt pistols or bolters look to the DC's role and the force multipliers you are using.

[knife&fork]

Bolter DC are great because they never have to choose not to fire those bolters. There are many times when having those extra shots have made a world of difference for me. Killing off scoring units, killing characters by forcing saves or softening up enemies that they struggle with in CC. 

 

BP+CCW is usually superior when you can guarantee a charge, but I find that harder to pull off these days. 

[I am Legion]

I dont know, the couple times i tried using Bolter DC they ended up tied in prolonged combat.....which means a worthless 2 attacks like our RAS. This has led to combats with no end as chaplains do nothing after the charge. Thus i found myself lacking those CC attacks as that's what i primarily use the DC for in the first place.

 

I say if you are not delivering the DC properly into CC then they arent being used efficiently.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Bolters are a deceptive choice. Yes they give you more fire power, but they also increase the chance of failing assault due to the random nature of the charge distance. They also mean your DC will spend significantly more time in stuck in close combat against tarpit units that engage you first.

[SamaNagol]

Death Company are not elite hammer units. They are meant to tie up the enemy. You should be using them in Pods with bolters and at least 1 fist so they can't get tarpitted by a walker or monstrous creature they couldn't otherwise hurt.

 

They should die every game. They should hold up 2-3 units in return for that investment.

 

You want to kill whole units? Take Mephiston or Hammernators.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Death Company are not elite hammer units. They are meant to tie up the enemy. You should be using them in Pods with bolters and at least 1 fist so they can't get tarpitted by a walker or monstrous creature they couldn't otherwise hurt.

 

They should die every game. They should hold up 2-3 units in return for that investment.

 

You want to kill whole units? Take Mephiston or Hammernators.

 

If you were to use them that way, wouldn't sternguard be outright better at this?

[Midnightmare]

^^I find Strenies great at that, and they have a better (imho) chance of first blood also, however I am currently trying out bolter DC in a pod as I prefer them 'fluffliy', but they seem to attract sooooo much attention that they die really quick. I am going to try a double Fragioso list, with the DC in the third for a time to see how that goes.

[Morticon]

It's really not rocket science.

 

If you're not using them with Bolters and some Power Fists you're doing it wrong.  Basically, the +1A the bolt pistol gives you is not worth risking more wounds unless you're packing a crapload of power weapons, which are useless for the Death Company (which can take hidden fists) anyway.

 

Disagree with you there.  

I think power axes are pretty awesome too.  Ive gone from a hammer and a fist, to 3 axes.  

I think the ability of a DC to essentially destroy a ten man squad on the charge is exceptional and I feel they make incredible hammer units.  

[Midnightmare]

How do you run your's Mort? I know you used to run them in a Rhino with no IC do they see much use nowadays?

[SamaNagol]

I think that having one fist in the unit is important to stop them getting trapped by something they can't hurt due to Fearless.

 

Sternguard only really offer a threat from shooting. At 25pts per model with only WS4 and no FnP they aren't doing anything in combat Assault Marines can't.

 

Try to look at DC as an interference unit. You can pod them down somewhere you want to cause maximum disturbance to the opponent's plans and then throw them into troops units to help you win the mission.

 

2 Power Weapons per every 4 men or part there of. I would go for Axes or Fists. Keep the cost down.

[Morticon]

How do you run your's Mort? I know you used to run them in a Rhino with no IC do they see much use nowadays?

 

Recently, they havent seen a lot of use, no.  Unfortunately I dont like using raiders, I dont like putting infantry in the raven and we all know the problems with rhinos.  So, when i do use them, I wind up using them with corbulo in a pod.  If I use DC in a pod, i will have 3 pods min, so there is some support (usually a frag dread).  

 

Im with the general theory behind Sama's thinking, though -that at least a PF keeps the big gribblies at bay.  If i can spare 10 points, ill go that route.  If not, then axes.

 

As to the question about bolters/pistols - i run half/half.  

[JamesI]

I usually run about 2/3 bolt pistols, 1/3 bolters.  Though I am considering adding some more bolters. 

 

I pretty much agree with Morticon in my preference to avoid using hte Raven as a transport and not often using Raiders.  So DC are pretty much stuck in pods.

[Zynk Kaladin]

I'm actually looking into a 10 man DC squad with 5 bolters, 5 bolt pistols, a power axe, and a power fist in a drop pod, a sort of "jack of all trades" disruption unit.  This config:

 

+1 DC (PF, bolter)

+1 DC (axe, bolt pistol)

x4 DC (bolter)

x4 DC(bolt pistol)

 

240(+35 for pod) points

 

This squad can do 15 (S4, AP5) relentless shots at 12". 

In close combat on the charge it deals 4 PF (S9, AP2), 5 axe(S6, AP2), and 36 regular(S5, AP-) attacks.  Multi-charging takes away the rage bonus.

Locked in combat they do 2 PF (S8, AP2), 3 axe(S5, AP2), and 20 regular(S4, AP-) attacks.

They can drown vehicles in attacks, or use krak grenades.  The PF is basically 4 lascannon attacks on the rear armor of a vehicle in CC.

 

Put in a pod, I fail to think of any plan my opponent spawns in their minds that this unit can't disrupt, fliers withstanding.  At the very worst they just add bodies to the middle of the field as my RAS core moves into position.  At the very best, they hold a critical objective causing my opponent to divert a large portion of their army towards attempting to deal with them.

[Morticon]

I think that 10man squad is awesome.  If you have points, consider an infernus pistol. Will really round off the jack of all trades vibe. 

[appiah4]

I'm

actually looking into a 10 man DC squad with 5 bolters, 5 bolt pistols,

a power axe, and a power fist in a drop pod, a sort of "jack of all

trades" disruption unit.  This config:

 

+1 DC (PF, bolter)

+1 DC (axe, bolt pistol)

x4 DC (bolter)

x4 DC(bolt pistol)

 

240(+35 for pod) points

 

This squad can do 15 (S4, AP5) relentless shots at 12". 

In

close combat on the charge it deals 4 PF (S9, AP2), 5 axe(S6, AP2), and

36 regular(S5, AP-) attacks.  Multi-charging takes away the rage bonus.

Locked in combat they do 2 PF (S8, AP2), 3 axe(S5, AP2), and 20 regular(S4, AP-) attacks.

They

can drown vehicles in attacks, or use krak grenades.  The PF is

basically 4 lascannon attacks on the rear armor of a vehicle in CC.

 

Put

in a pod, I fail to think of any plan my opponent spawns in their minds

that this unit can't disrupt, fliers withstanding.  At the very worst

they just add bodies to the middle of the field as my RAS core moves

into position.  At the very best, they hold a critical objective causing

my opponent to divert a large portion of their army towards attempting

to deal with them.

 

Now, I would really like to hear why you would rather not give that squad 10 Boltguns and 2 Power fists?  Because this really boggles my mind - I can NOT understand why anyone would take this squad. 

 

Ranged;

12" 15 S4 AP5 vs 20 S4 AP5 (33% advantage Boltguns)

24" 5 S4 AP5 vs 10 S4 AP5 (100% advantage Boltguns)

 

Melee (non-charge)

20 S4 Rending vs 16 S4 Rending (20% advantage BP/Boltgun mix)

2 S8 AP2, 3 S5 AP2 vs 4 S8 AP2 (a wash against MEQ/TEQ, but Boltguns win vs armor, walkers and monstrous creatures)

 

Just how can this loadout make any sense?

[Morticon]

Because reasons...and math hammer (And then a real life reason at the end for why I like to mix it up).

(also- dude, where you getting rending from? That was pdf codex )

Some of the numbers I got:

10 Bolters, 2 PF

Ranged:

6.66 MEQ saves to be made

8.99 GEQ saves to be made

Combat:

No Charge:

5.33 MEQ saves to be made

7.11 GEQ saves to be made

+

2.22 PF wounds

Charge:

14.22 MEQ saves to be made

17.7 GEQ saves to be made

+

4.44 PF wounds

5/5 Bolter/Pistol Mix

Ranged:

5 MEQ saves to be made

6.66 GEQ Saves to be made

Combat:

No charge:

6.66 MEQ saves to be made

8.99 GEQ saves to be made

+

0.88 PF wounds

1.33 Axe wounds (total the same)

Charge:

16 MEQ saves to be made

20 GEQ saves to be made

+

2.22 PF wounds

2.77 Axe wounds (total slightly higher than 2 fists for MEQ and lower, same for T5 and then lower at T6).

In short, the bolters seem maaarginally better with a full round of shooting and no-charge combat, but worse if we charge or if we take wounds.

Tthis is where I believe the combo makes the difference is in model placement and wounding. Anyone that plays drop DC will know that these guys will take a lot of fire after they land. We're going to lose guys en route. Having a mix of bolters and choppy weapons means that when we get shot up, we can lose the bolters (that were already used in the initial volley) and maintain the choppy weapons for our combat round. And I believe this is where the mix works well. As a brief mathhammer visit - if we lose 3 models, the difference in enemy MEQ saves taken in combat if we are charged is 4.6 to 3.3 in favour of the mixed squad.

As the numbers show, the differences are so minimal - some better in some situations than others, but we need to look at the whole battle, and all its outcomes not just specific facets.

[appiah4]

2 Things; 1. you are comparing PF wounds to Axe wounds in the wrong way; there are models/units that can soak and juggle 2 Axe wounds easily, but 2 PF wounds will almost always yield 2 dead models.  The Axe is very inferior compared to the fist, not even taking into account its inability to deal with Walkers and MCs. Which leads to 2. You have completely discounted unit efficiency vs MC and Armor, wich works terribly in the 2xPF unit's favor.

 

Taking an Axe is even more pointless than taking BPs.  There's nothing an Axe adds to the table for the DC.  You can take as many fists as you want and use them withouth fear of being singled out in duels.  15pts for S5 or 25pts for S8?  I'll take that instagibbing, Walker smashing, armor busting Fist anytime..

[Morticon]

You raise some valid points.  But your initial statement was: 

 

 

"Now, I would really like to hear why you would rather not give that squad 10 Boltguns and 2 Power fists?" 

 

I showed why a mix of boltguns and bolt pistols are better.

I wasn't that concerned about the fists.  

I feel choice of special weapons is a different topic and largely reliant on your meta and role of your DC.

 

If we want to talk about the choice between axes and fists, I prefer to go 3 axes rather than two fists. For 5 points less, vs. MEQ you do 4 wounds being charged (vs. 2.2 from the fist).  With DC on the charge this shoots to  4.44 on the fist and a huge 8.33 on the axes.  I would much prefer the axes because I will be dictating where my DC go, and who the DC fight thanks to the pod.  I have other aspects of my list to take care of walkers (which i dont find particularly prevalent in my meta).  Id much prefer the additional saves forced on Inv. saving units like terms.  Truth be told, if i had the points i'd probably look to 1fist and 2 axes to cover all bases. 

[CitadelArmyGuy]

appiah5, on 01 Apr 2013 - 06:01, said:

15pts for S5 or 25pts for S8?

You need to think more economically: 2 Axes for 30pt or 1 Fist for 25? Then the answer isn't so straightforward. Additionally, Axes are FAR more economically sound when you are fighting 1-wound Infantry. The only time the Fist wins is versus AV12+ (otherwise you have Krak grens in the unit), Toughness 6+, or Toughness 4- multiwound models.

 

Remember 2 Axes for 30 or 1 PF for 25? Think if you are charging--- that is 10 attacks (Str 6) versus 4 attacks (Str 9). For AP2, that is a huge difference.

 

Morticon, on 01 Apr 2013 - 11:03, said:

I feel choice of special weapons is a different topic and largely reliant on your meta and role of your DC.

Agreed, a different topic when talking specials. Specials are entirely about battlefield role.

[knife&fork]

You raise some valid points.  But your initial statement was: 

 

 

"Now, I would really like to hear why you would rather not give that squad 10 Boltguns and 2 Power fists?" 

 

I showed why a mix of boltguns and bolt pistols are better.

I wasn't that concerned about the fists.  

I feel choice of special weapons is a different topic and largely reliant on your meta and role of your DC.

 

If we want to talk about the choice between axes and fists, I prefer to go 3 axes rather than two fists. For 5 points less, vs. MEQ you do 4 wounds being charged (vs. 2.2 from the fist).  With DC on the charge this shoots to  4.44 on the fist and a huge 8.33 on the axes.  I would much prefer the axes because I will be dictating where my DC go, and who the DC fight thanks to the pod.  I have other aspects of my list to take care of walkers (which i dont find particularly prevalent in my meta).  Id much prefer the additional saves forced on Inv. saving units like terms.  Truth be told, if i had the points i'd probably look to 1fist and 2 axes to cover all bases. 

 

I don't think the BP+CCW / Bolter compromise adds a lot of value to that unit.

 

A podded DC in my experience is handled in two ways, it's either avoided or counter charged. Having the bolters help in both situations and provide you with a better torrent of fire on arrival. The extra attack only helps in one case and will leave you with less options on how to act once you have deployed. 

 

As for the axe vs fist question...

Axes are better in most cases (more wounds per point) but I still go with a fist, because when you need that fist the axe is not a valid substitute. If points are that tight I'd rather save them somewhere else, or buy infernus pistols instead. 

[Brother Maikel]

On Drop Pod/footslogging DC, where I expect to get charged, I'll run Bolt Pistols for anyone wielding a Power Weapon and Bolters on everyone else.  An extra power weapon attack is worth far more than a bolter shot, but a guaranteed bolter shot (3+ to Hit, S4, AP5) is in turn worth more than one or two CC attacks (3+ to Hit, S4, AP-) that could be lost due to enemy shooting.

 

On JPDC or Raider/Raven carried DC, where I can be reasonably confident of getting the charge (and where squad size is smaller), I'll run Bolt Pistols on everyone not wielding a Hammer/Fist.  Minimizing the chance of a failed charge and maximizing the number of S5 attacks the enemy takes have priority over a few bolter shots.

 

@CAG
As for fist vs axe, I agree with you, though in a unit that is getting charged the math isn't quite so much in favor of axes.  Axes are then only S5, so they're wounding T4 on 3's rather than 2's, and against T5+T6 the Axe is losing even more potency while the fist isn't.  Plus the Axes allow for T3/T4 to retain FNP.

[knife&fork]

If you are worried about failing a charge then don't fire at all. 

 

For a ten man unit we aren't talking an awful lot of wounds vs MEQ anyway, and GEQ you should slaughter in the assault phase.  

 

The math hammer has been done but in terms of performance on the tabletop I think it's safe to say that 20 bolter shots will do something and 10 nothing. That's what you can expect unless we are talking 5+ save or worse outside of cover.