Effective Plague Spreading?

[Ravenfeld]

Hey guys!

 

So my original 40k force was the Death Guard but I have long since drifted to other things. That being said I was eyeing my Space Zombies fondly the other day and I decided to hop in here and get some input into how the bloated boys are fairing in 6th edition?

 

With the addition of plague zombies I have to say I am sorely tempted to get a list going just to let them stretch their legs! So then, what makes a competitive Death Guard list these days? I am open to any and all insight, however I currently own:\

 

x28 Death Guard (Yep, 4 units of 7),

x4 Meltaguns (two units w/ two each)

x4 Flamers (two units w/ two each)

x3 Rhinos

 

x1 Typhus

 

x 5 Nurgle Terminators

x5 Combi Weapons

x3 Power Weapons (cleavers),

x1 Chainfist

x1 Tentacle (Count as whateva)

 

x1 Nurgle Dread (Hell Brute now I guess.)

Heavy Bolter

DCCW

 

x2 Oblits

x1 Land Raider

x1 Winged Daemon Prince

x1 Aegis w/ Quad Gun

 

While I am dumping most of my money into my Iron Hands and a small side project (Orks, boo-hiss) I wouldn't mind touching these guys up and whipping them into playable shape, even if I have to get 90 zombies to do it!

 

Thanks in advance,

Raven

[Azekai]

I would pick up some plasma guns for the PMs. I have been running melta for most of 5th and I am swiftly finding that it is not good in 6th. It is overkill against most things, and vehicles (at least around where I am) are not common enough to justify melta weapons. Take some obliterators and have them deal with the heavy armor.

 

Flamers are fine, and if you are facing guard, tyranids or orks, they are great.

 

I have not personally tried the zombie build, but it looks like fun, and I would encourage you to give it a shot. PM spam and zombie horde are about the only builds left to Nurgle players, what with Epidemius builds being dead.

[Ravenfeld]

I definitely see where you're coming from with the Melta, I don't use that many on my Vanilla Marines and those that I do use generally get the job done (generally...), so I could definitely consider dropping them for plasma, or even more flamers just to have that nasty nasty overwatch. I mean that coupled with the blight grenades (defensive grenades) can really hurt people wanting to get stuck in with my plague marines. I kind of want to avoid plasma spam as my vanilla marines are all about plasma and I don't want redundancy in different armies, you understand... that being said if I have a horde of zombies its already pretty different, haha!

 

What is your take on the new beast machine units? I really haven't seen any in action (aside from the hell drake) and would love some insight? Can they be made Nurgley?

 

How about Nurgle Daemons as allies?

[Azekai]

Ugh, sorry for the tardy reply; where are the other plague lords when you need 'em? :P

I can't really speak to the effectiveness of the new daemon engines, but I am shying away from vehicles this edition. Tau and Necron firepower in my meta make such units into expensive wrecks all too quickly. They can be given marks, so they can be themed. From what others have said the forgefiend seems like the best choice after the helldrake.

I am really wrestling with the usefullness of Nurgle daemons. Before they were obviously awesome; Nurgle Eternal Warrior DPs with noxious touch and flight = amazing, with unbreakble plaguebearers and Epi. Now . . . I don't know. Some armies can negate cover relatively easily, and that is pretty much all Nurgle daemons have going for them. Beasts are alright I guess, but plaguebearers are no longer have the rock-solid dependibility they had before. GUO are ok, but they cost an arm and a leg.

Honestly, I have been gravitating more towards chaos guard allies for my CSM. Combined with zombies you can completely swamp the battlefield in pustulent bodies.

[TheDevourer]

Going pure Nurgle Daemons as Allies probably isn´t the best choice, although the Great Unclean one is seriously hard to take down now and deals pretty decent damage. The Plague Bearers I have found to be at about the same level as previously, although they really have issues with units that ignore cover. All in all they will do well for their points.

 

I personally have the same problems with daemon engines as whythre. If I were to play them I might as well leave them off the table with all the Necrons, Tau, Imperial Guard and Dark Eldar I have to play against. In my opinion they are too pricey.

 

I m probably going to get myself some Slaanesh Daemons as allies. A Herald, some plague bearers as troops and the Slaanesh Cavalry unit. So far they have worked fairly well for me, but I have to get a few more games with them to be able to say more. The Slaanesh Daemons will of course be "nurgled" up.

[Ravenfeld]

Interesting, what about plague drones? I mean this is kind of what I
have in mind (and without knowing exact point costs / upgrades etc) I
was thinking:

 

Typhus

x3 units of 7 PM's w/ Rhinos

x2 units of 35 Zombies

x5 Termies w/ Land Raider

x1 Oblit

x1 Oblit

 

GUO

x1 Plaguebearer Unit

x1 BoN Unit

x1 Plague Drone Unit

x1 Nurgle DP w/ Wings

 

Now if I had more points to spare I would try and get some anti-air stuff (aside from the DP) and maybe some Nurglings for giggles. My thinking is that I'd start the CSM stuff on the table and deep strike the daemons, kind of like Typhus opening up a rift into the warp and allowing the daemons to pour forth into the material realm. Another thing is I realize that Nurgle Daemons tend to be on the slower side, so deepstriking them near the thick of the fighting makes most sense. Some zombies hold back field (maybe get a havoc squad for a fire base?) and PM's roll up field to contest and fight for their objectives, second block of zombies screens the first block against assaults and approaching enemies, then the daemons materialize to support the PM's up front? It sounds so nice in my mind, and fluffy too! Just wish I could put points to all this.

 

What do you guys think?

[TheDevourer]

To be honest: Plague Drones are very, very expensive for what they do. If you like them go for it, but personally i would rather play more havocs in your chaos force. Group the Obliterators, get an Aegis etc. The Nurgle Dp is also very expensive, sadly. Also not a fan of Land Raiders on Chaos marines, because they are much worse than their loyalist counter parts. If you want to go for the nurgle thing: Nurgle Spawns are very nice. Or if you like convert yourself a nurgle Heldrake. I built my own out of a vampire counts zombie Dragon which you can check out in my thread if you like. 

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272042-thedevourer-goes-nurgle/

 

Regarding zombies: It is probably better to go 2 Squads of 20-ish and one squad of 15 or so for backfield objectives otherwise you end up swamping the table with so many zombies that you will be blocking youself and your enemies will almost always get their 5+ cover save. 

 

But I all in all I find your list very fluffy and I´m sure you´ll enjoy playing them. 

Also Plague Drones look really nice :P.

[Ravenfeld]

Spawn are definitely an option!

 

This list is partially based on what I currently own as well, as it stands all I would need to buy is zombies, drones, and plaguebearers to put that list on the table. Naturally there is room for growth! I really wanna use the DP because I bought a Forge World Plague Ogryn years back and put some Carrion Wings on him and I never really got a chance to throw him down. I think with some Biomancy it could be a serious threat, no? What would you recommend to tackle air then? Aegis + Havocs? I also don't like my space zombies to be fast attacky, so the Drones would add that fast attack element I would otherwise be missing.

 

What are your favorite Nurgle units, and why?

[nurglez]

I quite like the bog standard landraider for my chaos marines. Considering the meta ofc, but less people seem to be taking vehicles, meaning less people are taking dedicated anti tank weapons and often pick weapons that can do both, such as autocannons/assault cannons, plasmaguns and missile launchers. 2 twin linked lascannons are semi decent anti air too (thanks to the rerolls) but your mileage may vary :D

 

I love my hades packing forgefiend, in my 1500 point list this guy and my autocannon havocs are on anti air duty (alongside my single heldrake), although I have no idea how they would fair vs a necron flyer spam list (although, pretty much any of my lists wouldnt do to well in that situation). BS3 is annoying, but 8 shots is pretty nice (one game my forgefiend killed 2 storm ravens and managed to take the last 2 hull points off a landraider!).

 

I'm quite liking the look and stats of blight drones (apart from the fact they have 2HP) but am yet to use them in a battle (picked up 2 at the last throne of skulls event I attended), flying battlecannons, whats not to like!

 

Plague marines are solid troops, but rather expensive, hence why I have 2x10 cultists in my force (and only 2 plague squads, 7 man ofc). I'm wanting to try out typhus and zombies at some point too, but am currently working on my Iron warriors (I painted my forgefiend and heldrake Iron warrior colours as you can't mark them, and gives me more options when I play).

[TheDevourer]

I personally have an icarus lascannon for anti-air aswell as 10 autocannon havocs and 2 Heldrakes ;).

The Heldrake is fairly good at taking on air. Just fly over them and give them D3+1 S7 hits to their side armor, no cover saves allowed :P.

 

Yes the Dp does have the potential to become a threat, however grounding gimps flying monstrous creatures and the fact that most

lists will have an aegis means they will be able to bring down a single fmc very fast. 

 

My favorite nurgle units are going to have to be Spawn. Cheap, nasty, tough as nails, fast and fun to convert and build. I mean you can do anything! :D

 

I tried playing my list with 2 blight drones a couple of times, but their low ballistic skill and the weapon target difference made them difficult to play + they take away valuable 

fast attack slots that could be filled better with spawn/drakes/bikes. And yeah the 2 HP are a nuisance too. However, that battle cannon for 125pts is very tempting :D

[Ravenfeld]

I was talking about Plague Drones, the Daemon dudes. But yeah Blight Drones have always appealed to me as well. I don't think I'm going to be able to fit everything I want into a 2000 point list to be honest. But, as I said in my original post, I have other priorities for my monies, so I need to make what I have work with the addition of a handful of extra units, tops.

 

I could drop myself down to x2 PM squads, break up the zombies into three x20 squads, get some havocs in there. I was thinking the lone Oblits would DS in and mulch enemy armor or heavy weapons with their mean guns. Too many good options, hard to choose..

[TheDevourer]

True that ;). Just find a play style you like and stick to it. It´s what works best.

 

There are alot of "good" units in the csm codex. Sure some are better. But it would be boring if everyone played the same list :P

[Ravenfeld]

Okay, lets take this to another level. What are your suggestions per slot for both C:CSM and C:Daemons. So HQ, Troop, Elite, Fast, Heavy and so on. Gimme two of each and tell me WHY you like them and what function they fill for your army. Don't worry about being long winded, in fact I encourage it!

 

Thanks guys!

Raven

[TheDevourer]

Oki I´ll try my best here. I´ll also assume you mean "best" unit, rather than favorite unit? But I´ll try and find a middle point for that. So I´ll be comparing power level aswell as how much I like the unit.

 

Csm first.

 

HQ: 

1. Chaos General, hats off. Awesome HQ choice. Versatile by making different cult units into troop choices. Very cheap for a great stat line. Has access to some nice special weapons.

Best load out I would say is a Khorne lord on bike or juggernaught with axe of blind fury and sigil. I´m also toying with playing a Slaanesh Lord purely for the noise marines as troop choices. Kitted out with bike/jet pack and power sword to keep him cheap. If you would like to go for a more generic lord termi armor and Lightning claw and power fist are a good choice. While using Mark of Nurgle or Tzeentch to beef his survivability up.

2. Tough choice here. I would have to go for either Typhus or a sorceror. Typhus purely because of him unlocking plague marines and zombies. Whereas the sorceror is great on a bike with biomancy. With mastery level 3 he can be suprisingly strong. Alongside having a force weapon and utilizing the spell familiar he is fairly reliable at taking out multi wound targets. His big weakness however is the fact that he only has 2 lives.

 

Elites:

Elites is a difficult area in the csm codex. Nothing outstanding here. I won´t talk about cult units, as I´d probably only play them in the troops section.

1. Mutilators. Yes, I´ve said it. I like them, they work. I have played a single mutilator a few times to pressure the enemy lines. MoN and he´s good to go. Cheap enough to be affordable to lose and dangerous enough to be a threat. The enemy is forced to fire at him if you get a good deepstrike down. Either he fires too much or the mutilator survives and tears apart tanks or vulnerable infantry units or fire support units. Downside is the fact that he is a single model, gives an easy kill point and fairly easy first blood.

2. Terminators. 2nd best in elite. But don´t let that get your spirits up. To be frank, they are meh. At most. Only way I would play them is by putting 5 combi-plasmas on them and hoping they deal damage on the deep strike. They´re expensive and not amazingly good. The loyalist counterparts are simply better.

 

Troops:

Ok assuming cult units count.

1. Zombies. Cheap, cheerful, fearless, feel no pain (ergo tougher than you would expect). Throw them into units to tarpit or just swamp objectives. (I have played a full tyhus and zombie list at 1000 points and it was reeeeally good. Although it does have problems against some lists).

2. This goes either to Noise Marines or Plague Marines. If you want a beefy, tanky  unit that can take 2 special weapons as well as having 4+ poison in close combat. My favorite build 5 man with 2 plasmas and combi-plasma if the points allow. Noise Marines if you want a back end fire support squadron. Nothing special here. 5 Noise marines and a blast master. Deal good damage. Long ranged and ignore cover, aswell as coming in fairly cheap at 125pts. They also get to strike before most other units due to Initiative 5, not that they deal alot of damage in close combat.

 

Fast Attack:

1. Heldrake. I would like to place Heldrake at place 2 aswell, but hey. Definatly one of the strongest units our codex has to offer. The baleflamer is sick. The Stat line is sick. The FAQ allowing it to fire at 360 degrees made it even better. Whats not to like?. Fly on the table from reserves. Fly over an enemy unit. Give it a nice smash with d3+1 attacks S:7 Ap:3 and then proceed to barbecue an entire unit with the I don´t care how well you positioned yourself, I still hit most of you, baleflamer. Toast those annoying 2+ cover save units.Toast anyone silly enough to think being behind an aegis is safe. Laugh at the puny autocannon shells plinging off of your tough beast and regenerate any glances you took if needed or just save them with your invulnerable save. All in all a very safe and very powerful choice. 

2. Chaos Spawns with Mark of Nurgle. Sure bikers are very viable as well. But not nearly as cool. Conversion time is the best about these models. They are fast moving and have alot of attacks, albeit random, but hey we´re chaos. They shrug off most small arms fire and using heavy weapons on them always feels like your wasting potential. Excellent tarpit unit as well as an excellent unit to draw off fire from more important units and to pressure the enemy lines.

 

Heavy Support:

1.Havocs, phew that was easy. Cheap, cheap, cheap. 5 Havocs with 4 autocannons at 115pts. Count me in. Deal alot of damage. Are good at taking down air due to the volume of fire. Take down light to medium armor and any infantry units they can line up on. Hard to move from behind the aegis and fulfill the role of manning quad guns or icarus lascannons very well aswell. Very point efficient unit. I don´t think I have to say much more about them.

2. Obliterators. Mainly for them being so versatile. You need long range fire support, but higher strength and ap than havocs? Go for obliterators. Give them Mark of Nurgle and they are also very tough. Sadly, their terrible leadership test usually leaves them very vulnerable to losses. If you play 2 or more of them then get Votlw for leadership 9.

 

Ok that was alot of hard work. Short break and I´ll be back with you for a short review on Daemons.

[TheDevourer]

Okaaaaay Chaos Daemons up next. This will be sligtly shorter as I need a little more time to play around with things.

HQ:

1. Slaanesh Herold. Give her 2 lesser Gifts for Ap:2 and you have some good melee damage. If you plan on putting her in a mobile unit throw her on a steed. Then give her the beguilement power allowing her and her unit to reroll all misses in close combat aswell as forcing your opponent to accept your challenge and allowing you to choose who it is. Insanely good in challenges with her high initiative, astonishingly cheap and high ap make her a closecombat powerhouse.

2. The Great Unclean One. High Tougness, rediculous amount of wounds. Just be sure not to support him in combat with units that tend to die fast or his instability will be his undoing. Give him some Biomancy powers and he gets a lot tougher. Big Minus is that he is fairly expensive. Use him as a tank to draw fire from more vulnerable units. And to threaten all kinds of units.

Elites:

Can´t say much about them. Haven´t been interested in any units there so far. Although the Slaanesh Fiends bring some good utility

Troops:

1. Plague Bearers. Lost alot of power in some areas i.e Toughness and feel no pain. On the other hand +2 on cover save is nice. Great unit to hide behind an aegis for 2+ cover save and to just camp objectives. Brings what csm don´t have: a cheap and tough troop choice that doesn´t run off the table.

2. Daemonettes. Cheap, fast, alot of attacks, high initiative and rending make these chicks really good at just swarming down enemy units. Good delivery unit for the aforementioned herald.

Fast Attack:

1. Seekers of Slaanesh. Same as the Daemonettes, but even faster and more deadly. For just 3 pts more per model you can play these beauties and really dish out the pain.

2. Flesh Hounds of Khorne. Scout makes them very in your face. Great at creating pressure, also come with nice special rules against psychic abilities.

Heavy Support:

Once again nothing really looks all that nice in there. I would have to say that csm has alot better options that I would consider playing especially after seeing the issues with the Tzeentch Chariot and the guy inside not being able to fire because his weapon is a heavy weapon if the chariot moves. Ok just to be fair. The Soulgrinder is pretty nice.

Hope this helps

[Ravenfeld]

I just can't bring myself to like the Helldrake, that thing is just obnoxious! Being a Vanilla Marine player I have developed a serious loathing for that thing, so much so that I don't even know if I want to use it!

 

I crunched some numbers the other day based off of memory (I don't own either Codex, so its all based off of what I read at the store, heh) and I realized that if I field everything I own in terms of C:CSM I will actually hit near to 2000 points before allies. That is, of course, with the addition of 60 zombies and 5 havocs. I still want to make use of the Daemons in some way, I have always always wanted to have a mix of nurgle marines and nurgle daemons, to me it is just a marriage that is too fluffy to ignore. That being said I still want the list to be competitive, so what would you guys recommend to make a competitive, yet fluffy, nurgle list that uses both CSM and Daemons.. with Typhus & Zombies... haha!

 

Thanks!

 

EDIT - I should also mention that I would likely keep my Daemons in reserve and have them deep strike in later... if I haven't mentioned that already.

[TheDevourer]

Erm so how many points? And you sure about not having any helldrakes? I can click together something if you like, but I have no idea what you want, nor what your interpretation of competetive is. Give me a hint ;)

[Ravenfeld]

Erm so how many points? And you sure about not having any helldrakes? I can click together something if you like, but I have no idea what you want, nor what your interpretation of competetive is. Give me a hint

2000 points.

I could be convinced of the Helldrake I guess, but I know my store is going to be swarming with Anti-Air tau stuff in the coming weeks, whether as Tau forces or allied detachments, so I don't know if I want to invest money, time, and effort into a unit I don't love just to have it get destroyed when it enters play consistently.. and I definitely don't want to run multiples.

I want a Nurgle only list composed of C;CSM and maybe another with C:CSM with Nurgle Daemon allies. Competitive would be functional where I can stand toe to toe with other lists, not necessarily tournie stomping, just able to hold a torch and have a chance at winning with good handling.

[TheDevourer]

Ok. Does 2000 Points mean double FOC slots. Or do you mean 1999+1?

[Ravenfeld]

Ah, why not do both since you're feeling charitable with lists? Haha! If that isn't asking too much. Also, what are your thoughts on Necrosius?

[TheDevourer]

Can´t say anything about forgeworld units par the Blight Drones, as we don´t play any forge world around here and tournaments don´t allow them.

I only have the time to throw one list at you which is on 1999+1. It would go something like this.

 

*************** 2 HQ ***************
Typhus
- - - > 230 Pts

Sorceror
- ML 3
+ - Psi Sword
- Boltpistol
+ - Spell-Homunkulus
+ - 4+ Invulnerable
- Chaosbike
- - - > 170 Pts


*************** 1 Elite ***************

1 Mutilator
- MoN- - - > 61 Pts


*************** 6 Troops ***************
26 Zombies
- - - > 114 Pts

15 Zombies

- - - > 70 Pts

15 Zombies
- - - > 70 Pts

15 Zombies
- - - > 70 Pts

5 Plague Marines
- 2 x Plasma Gun
- - - > 150 Pts

 

5 Plague Marines
- 2 x Plasma Gun
- - - > 150 Pts

*************** 3 Fast Attack ***************

5 Chaos Spawns
- MoN

- - - > 180 Pts

3 Chaosbikes
- 2 x Melter
- - - > 90 Pts

 

3 Chaosbikes
- 2 x Melter
- - - > 90 Pts
*************** 3 Heavy Support ***************

3 Obliterators
- MoN

- Votlw
- - - > 237 Pts

5 Havocs
- 4 x Autocannons
- - - > 115 Pts

 

5 Havocs
- 4 x Autocannons
- - - > 115 Pts

*************** 1 Terrain ***************

Aegis-Defence Line
- Icarus-Lascannon
- - - > 85 Pts

Chaos Space Marines : 1997

[mstersmith]

I never thought about puting a sorc on a bike I may need to try this bit of nasteynes.

[Ravenfeld]

So looking at it as it stands I won't be making much use out of my Nurgle Dread, my converted Land Raider, my Forge World Nurgle Terminators, and a handful of my Plague Marines.. on the plus side I can retrofit some of my Plague Marines into Bikers / Havocs.

 

Part of me really wants to use tanks in Heavy Support instead of Havocs, since I have other lists that make use of devastators in abundance..

 

Oh also, need to have the units in increments of 7 if possible, it is Nurgle's number after all! Haha!

[TheDevourer]

To be honest Plagues aren´t bad. However they aren´t bad when compared to most of our troop choices, that I personally find lacking. 

 

If you want tanks in Heavy Support it might be worth going triple Vindicators. Thats something I can see working. You could then ally in a Soulgrinder just to buff up your armor 13 value tanks and the amount of templates you bring. 

[Ravenfeld]

What about the complete opposite line of thinking, just a massive foot slogging list that has no vehicles what-so-ever?

 

I dunno, I just see the Death Guard marching slowly beside their tanks as they trundle forward laying down devastation, so maybe 3 Vindicators would work. What about two with a unit of Oblits?