Legion Characteristics

[Kais Klip]

'ello 'ello 'ello, 

 

I have a problem. The problem consists of a large space marine force, unpainted but constantly in WIP mode, a tendency towards absolute thinking; try as I might, there are few things in which I allow myself to be a jack-of-all-trades or, as I prefer to refer to it: half-a*sed, and lastly a failure to comprehend the distilled characteristics and ways of each Astartes Legion.

 

The problem is settling on a Legion. That is at least, settling long enough on it as to give me a comfortable window in which to paint the army before longingly returning my gaze to the cupboard filled with Apple-Flavoured Dettol Solution (the bane of grimdark smells, toothbrush heads and paint alike).  

 

After years of playing tau, I decided to clean up my space marines and start an HH army. A long time ago I was a fan of the Alpha Legion, however I decided that the whole subtle, scheming character was not for me and that I was looking for a more blunter practical approach to grimdark warfare. Apart from that, I wouldn't be surprised at myself picking any legion, considering that I will always go loyalist, except for Emperor's Children (because I fail not to see them, at their core, as an amplification of your stereotypical vain, prancing swordsmen) and perhaps Thousand Sons (not being a fan of sorcery or scholarly attributes and preferring heart and brawn over mind and... whatever is the domain of Psyk). 

 

Lately, after reading ADB's Betrayer, HH's Betrayal and then scouring for as many tidbits on Heresy World Eaters as I could, I have been as far settled as I ever been in my fondness for the predecessors of World Eaters, the War Hounds. The reason is that the latter's apparent characteristic of aggression and, more importantly, brotherhood striking home with me much deeper than hotter fury of the former. The problem is the small nagging voice that these two apparent characteristics are actually prevalent in all of the legions. This combining with ADB's remarks in Missing primarchs : A simpler than expected answer ?  leads me to believe that the Space Wolves/Rout may actually contain more of a brotherly, characteristic than either WEa or WHs. 

 

Considering that, may I ask of you lads and lasses to temporarily dispose of any rightful understanding of our Legions as complicated, multi-faceted, human-perfections-and-flaws-magnified beasts, and for just a moment, dilute them into, at best, a handful of words, so that I may see each through others' biases and understandings. If my suspicions are correct and the attribute of brotherhood and aggression is resplendent almost equally in all of the Legions, then what is the logical follow-up characteristic to search for, or at least  what characterly aspect does each Legion find itself unique from its other 17 counterparts? 

[Balthamal]

Focusing on brotherhood isn't a good defining choice in my opinion since it's the one trait that is universal across the Legions. Stronger in some than others granted, but theres a small observation in Blood Game where a Custode notes that in comparison, it is brotherhood that binds a Legion together rather than duty.

 

That being said, I like the way you're going about deciding on a Legion. I won't go through all 18 because I'm feeling too lazy but I'll try and pin down something on a few I've taken an interest in since which Legion to take is a question that continues to torment me.

 

 

 

Vlaka Fenryka - Loyalty to the Emperor. I think this supercedes all their other traits because it is unique to them. They will ALWAYS, regardles of command, obey the Emperor in everything, as the Thousand Sons could attest.

 

 

Night Lords - Generating Fear, not as a means to an end but as the end itself. A legion of rapists, torturers and killers coming to the realisation of their power and using it for their own ends because those ends are not being met by the Imperium, mainly because they lack the original conviction of the Night Haunter - For this I strongly recommend reading Prince of Crows

 

 

Blood Angels - Striving for a better future. Having come from a world that used to be a paradise but is now a living hell, it's understandable that they'd be inclined to want a better future for humanity although whether this is something that comes from themselves or is the influence of Sanguinius is debatable

 

 

Iron Warriors - Mathematicians/Engineers. Their way of war is to precisly calculate everything from ordnance payloads to angles of bombardment etc. Add into this mix the healthy dose of bitterness Perturabo has, even before the Olympian genocide, and you have an accurate picture of the iron warriors

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

Ultramarines - attempting to be the most tactically flexible legion by understanding the practical and theoretical implications of actions and scenarios.

 

Emperor's Children - The pursuit of martial perfection. They seek to become the best they can be and test themselves constantly - they hate weakness and deviation (read: Psykers)

 

Death Guard: Resilience and mastery of Infantry Tactics - it was Mortarion's dream to have the best infantry in the galaxy, as he believed infantry to be dependable in a way nothing else was. They still used tanks, etc but only as support. Over time their resilience led to them being sent to the toughest war zones which in turn led to a morbid and pragmatic atmosphere. Mortarion also hated tyrants and Psykers but it is unclear how much his Legion reflected this.

[Kais Klip]

Cheers for the time that you did take on your replies lads.

 

Not that either of you insinuated to the contrary but I do like to remark that I find myself an almost rabid fan of the setting, so what I am looking at particularly is peoples' own views of the Legions rather than the details and viewpoints put forward by the narratives. An example is your remark of the Rout's absolute loyalty to the Emperor; I never considered that to be the Wolves' defining trait, and reading over the prologue to Betrayer I do see that the "not biting the hand that feeds" remark about the Wolves does extraordinary support for your view on them. The kind of views that are considered rare is exactly the kind I want to read and find out about (and is your view of one of the Wolves many defining characteristic being the most loyal as rare as I think it is?) Sound off!

 

If "brotherhood" is not applicable then my second choice would probably be straightforward loyalty, namely to the Emperor (since, like the Sigillite, I view him as being the best hope for humanity in the setting and one it cannot go without) if not their brothers in particular. As such I was always under the impression that the most "loyal" of the legions were the Blood Angels, taking it after Sanguinius' need for proof of their dedication with the whole mutant vibe and all, even if we do forget Imperial Fists who i have no doubt would be a worthy contender to be the most "Emperor-loyal" of the legions. What makes the Wolves stand out so much for their loyalty in your eyes over their brother legions? 

 

The main contenders for me before the War Hounds (and would you say they still share the negative bloodthirsty "blood for the sake of blood" of pre-Nails World Eaters?) were the Fenryka, but I was disattracted by their whole Viking/Nature-all-the-way vibe (that rivals even the civilisation-hate of the Scars) I got from Prospero Burns.

 

Then came the Death Guard but just as quickly were dismissed because I am not fan of their pre-primarch or post colour scheme, and lastly on the mind were the Ultramarines but again, much like the wolves, they seemed "too popular" (and I hope I'm not an anti-mainstream hipster, even if I do refuse to take Praetors in my armies since HOW MANY PRAETORS CAN THERE BE!1!!ONE) and I was wary of being viewed as yet another special goldfish with his 4th-company-Praetor-that-makes-Ultramarines-seem-to-have-more-Praetors-than-line-marines or another toughest-of-them-all Space Wolves fanboy that's constantly battling against what must be a galaxy full of impostors. 

 

Ultramarines seemed too... generic for me, their methodical theoretical/practical approach didn't seem too different in practice from the martial chess-player aims of the Children. For me, and yet again I want to remind peeps that I want to hear their disagreements, the Ultramarines just seem like a generic army for a I-want-nothing-too-special player. One could say they are the manifestation of my aforementioned jack-of-all-trades?  One could argue that they may be the most disciplined, but isn't perfected battle maneuvering that the Emperor's Children pride themselves with a by-product of perfected discipline? 

 

Night Lords never crossed my mind, and while I do love them (mainly thanks to ADB's writing on them) I would never see myself collecting them, plus we have to remember Angel Exterminatus' remark that ruthless criminals make the best recruits for the Astartes (Cthonia!). On that note, what do you see the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus as? Thinking about it they seem to want perfected glory more so than even the Children and proof of their dedication to the cause more so than the Angels. 

 

Finally, seems to me you have another unique view of the Blood Angels, and maybe you are right in that they may wish best for the Imperium's future while ignoring the fact that humanity is the make up of the Imperium (I guess we'll have some tasty tidbits about that point in Empire Unremembered), but was it not always the Salamanders that took the crown of being the most concerned and compassionate about the average line human? The Blood Angels never struck me so, anyone else? 

 

I feel compelled to point out a disclaimer that I am happy with all the Legions in the setting respectively and find none out of place or lacking (with perhaps exception to the rather drab and 2 dimensional Iron Hands but I am loving how they are starting to be deepened out by books like Angel Exterminatus), and that I am simply looking to find what labels you guys have of each Legion just like we have much more agreed-upon labels on the respective Primarchs of the Legions (who I do see as not being completely or at all reflected by their Legions, hence the problem.)

[Blacksad]

Dark Angels: Medieval Knights, think Arthur / Mordred / Lancelot

ultramarines: Roman Empire

White Scars: Mongol Horsemen

Space Wolves: bands of viking brothers

Imperial Fists: Greec Phalanx

World Eaters: Berserkers

Emperor's Children: japanese / chinese styled swordsaints

Night Lords: Batman (- the non-killing bit)

Word Bearers: Crusaders (I know, I know, the black templar are meant for this, but... well...)

Blood Angels: Twilight Vampires with an attitude

Salamanders: UN bluehelms

Death Guard: the slave army from song of fire and ice (game of thrones)

Thousand Sons: Warlocks / arcane archers

Alpha legion: cylon infiltrators / ninja

Luna Wolves: navy seals

[Kais Klip]

Dark Angels: Medieval Knights, think Arthur / Mordred / Lancelot

ultramarines: Roman Empire

White Scars: Mongol Horsemen

Space Wolves: bands of viking brothers

Imperial Fists: Greec Phalanx

World Eaters: Berserkers

Emperor's Children: japanese / chinese styled swordsaints

Night Lords: Batman (- the non-killing bit)

Word Bearers: Crusaders (I know, I know, the black templar are meant for this, but... well...)

Blood Angels: Twilight Vampires with an attitude

Salamanders: UN bluehelms

Death Guard: the slave army from song of fire and ice (game of thrones)

Thousand Sons: Warlocks / arcane archers

Alpha legion: cylon infiltrators / ninja

Luna Wolves: navy seals

 

 

That list was one of the first things that I mentally reviewed. The question that I found needs to be asked in my case is, what do they each stand for? Medieval Knights might be the most easiest to agree upon: chivalry (what else?). But what of the Roman Empire? Civil in their achievements? Barbaric in their carnal desires for sex and yearn for blood that would rival even our Berserkers? What does being a Mongolian horseman make you stand for? Surely the social attitudes (given that we might define a man's character both on his behavior during war and at home) of those that employed Greek Plalanx tactics would never represent Imperial Fists? Even if you are replying with some tongue-in-cheek, I gotta say I strongly disagree on Luna Wolves (no clue where you got that one from, again their tactic of overpowered strikes, be it on leadership positions or otherwise, seems incredibly generic, since even Perturabo remarked that the only truth of winning a battle is the application of overwhelming force to the weakest point) and as for the Children; yes they both practised their art religiously, but again what of their non-martial behaviour? 

 

Unlike the Primarchs, which given the limited narrative on them one might be forgiven for thinking of them so blandly, I believe that the Legions are extremely "deep" entities. Thus, much like with other such deep subjects, given the absolute lack of a right-or-wrong answer I believe the most "correct" one must be the most widely-held viewpoint, since I believe a thing is most reliably defined by what the majority sees it as, right or wrong. Having covered what I believe is the most widely-held attributes (and I'm not even sure that I have given that I never realized one could view the Wolves as the-most-loyal-of-them-all), I'm trying to dig out some tiny slivers of diamond-rare viewpoints that have been snuffed out by generalizations, again be they right or wrong. While I do seek the views of the crowd, I am much more interested on what that quiet hermit in the mountain has to say about the "glorious" Ultramarines/"savage" World Eaters etc, if you get my drift.

 

I'd rather you not read this final sentence, but if I were to dumb down my rambling demands, it would be:

 

If we, again wherever right or wrong, assume that a certain character of person will be attracted to the Legion that most conveys his character, what kind of person would each Legion be led by? Would a Roman really play Ultramarines? Would berserkers, if we assume they are mostly barbarians living in the wild, really ever choose World Eaters over Wolves, who we know to be much more connected to the feral/natural way of life? If that is right than why do we say the most defining aspect of World Eaters is berserker...ism. And what does our hermit say? 

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

If you want more personal views on the Legions, then it's my view that the Ultramarines, Emperor's Children, Sons of Horus and Dark Angels too lost to the ideas of perfection, mastery and victory to be truly loyal. In contrast I think the Iron Warriors, and Peturabo in particular, are the most loyal legion in their own way - Peturabo never wanted to be an architect - a builder of cities not fortresses, and yet he resigned himself to his task, to taking the crushing, mind-numbing sieges that he was given because he believed that he was the only one who could. Whilst his legion fragmented into garrisons and was worn down by war he kept his course. Even when the Emperor chose his least favourite brother to do the one thing Peturabo believed he could do best - build fortresses - he somehow managed to keep at it. It was only when his home world rebelled that he lost it - he snapped, and when the battle was over and he saw what he had done he believed he had no choice but to join Horus - after all how could the Emperor condone what had happened on Olympus? In my opinion Peturabo and Angron, and their legions, have always been the greatest tragedies of 30k

 

EDIT: On the Iron Warriors themselves, they are a legion who has become accustomed to the long, gruelling work of siege warfare. More than perhaps any other legion they have had to say goodbye to their closest brothers, having lost them to either attrition or garrison duty. They are masters at applying abstract mathematics to martial situations in the same way that the Ultramarines do with tactical theoreticals and seem to be one of the few legions that pride themselves on their different cities of origin (I'm sure someone has the quote about tattoos etc). Add into that the same bitterness and growing disillusionment that afflicts the Death Guard, and finally the guilt of what they did on Olympia - of how they washed the streets with the blood of their own people.

[Conn Eremon]

The thing that makes the Space Wolves the most loyal, in their own eyes, is that there are no limitations to that loyalty. All other Primarchs have a visible breaking point, including Dorn, Sanguinius and Guilliman, those otherwise seen as the more loyal. If the Emperor goes far enough against their grain, the Primarchs would stand against him. If the Emperor thought Guilliman was spending too much time empire-building and told him off for not using his vaster resources to go even faster, Guilliman wouldn't take it well. Don't leave the worlds better off, just burn them, conquer them and move on? Sanguinius thought his father would bring a better future, but if this was proven false he would have doubts. Dorn was the Emperor's champion, but there are things Dorn can't countenance or favor. If the Emperor began to do or say those things, Dorn would waver. Russ, though? It doesn't matter what the Emperor does or commands, he would do it. I'm sure that's not actually the case, but it's their own over-exaggeration. It's what they believe. They may have a breaking point, when not even they could remain loyal to the Emperor, but it's a lot farther down the line than any other Primarch.

 

The thing that differentiates the Emperor's Children from the Ultramarines is adaptability. Actually, I can do that better. Both the Ultramarines and the Emperor's Children are about perfecting war. It's true, in the Horus Heresy they're being portrayed very similarly. But the key difference, and to me it's all the difference in the world, is what they view the state of perfection as. To the Emperor's Children, perfection is a sole stagnant state. You attain it, you remain at it, you're good. And most importantly, there's only the one. To the Ultramarines, perfection is an infinite number of inconstant solutions. You don't attain it and you can't remain there. All you can do is hunt as many of them down as you can, in all their myriad possibilities, apply them contextually to the matter at hand and move on. The Codex Astartes is really a journal of that never-ending search. 

 

This is why I like the Ultramarines far more than I like the Emperor's Children (and I don't just mean this because I'm more for the loyalists than the traitors), because they have a far more practical outlook. And I think it's a superior one, too, and the fluff agrees with me. The Emperor's Children, though beginning at a disadvantage and legendary at war nonetheless, don't match up to the capabilities, resources and list of victories as the Ultramarines for a reason. They may share a similar pursuit, but the Emperor's Children are close-minded and singular in its approach while the Ultramarines are not. It's true that the Ultramarines are the ultimate vanilla marines, but that's more due to the opinion of the audience than what the fluff actually illustrates. It's easy to see the biggest Legion, split up into the vast majority of Chapters and by far the most common primogenitor chosen as the blank template. But that's a virtue of the myriad variations made to the base origin, thanks to the vast multitudes that can be found, while the others, being of far less frequency, are able to hold onto their individual personalities. If you have three shades of yellow, and sixty shades of blue, any one shade of yellow is going to look more distinctive than any one shade of blue, y'know?

 

Sanguinius, and by extension, the Blood Angels are the most humane of pre-Heresy Primarchs and Legions. Vulkan, and by extension, the Salamanders, came into their humane attitudes eventually. They may not have been as inhumane as others, like Curze or Angron, but Vulkan had to come to an epiphany before he and his Legion became what they are most known for in 40k. Alternatively, following the death of Sanguinius and the encroaching Flaws, the Blood Angels became less humane over the millennia. However, Lorgar and the Word Bearers could also be seen as the most humane, prior to their discovery of the Chaos Gods (and to some, probably afterwards to). Personally, I think it's a toss up between Sanguinius, Guilliman and Vulkan, who would eventually become the most humane of the three.

[Kais Klip]

How do I delete this post? Contents went into first half of next response.

[Peter the Hermit]

Just to add; "EC- parade of meat" in Angel Exterminatus was EPIC....Perturabo waiting like a true soldier to greet his brother, and Fulgrim comes with a freak show.....LOL

Also when Fulgrim told him that his face was always in the mud - it really felt sorry for him....

[Kais Klip]

If you want more personal views on the Legions, then it's my view that the Ultramarines, Emperor's Children, Sons of Horus and Dark Angels too lost to the ideas of perfection, mastery and victory to be truly loyal. In contrast I think the Iron Warriors, and Peturabo in particular, are the most loyal legion in their own way - Peturabo never wanted to be an architect - a builder of cities not fortresses, and yet he resigned himself to his task, to taking the crushing, mind-numbing sieges that he was given because he believed that he was the only one who could. Whilst his legion fragmented into garrisons and was worn down by war he kept his course. Even when the Emperor chose his least favourite brother to do the one thing Peturabo believed he could do best - build fortresses - he somehow managed to keep at it. It was only when his home world rebelled that he lost it - he snapped, and when the battle was over and he saw what he had done he believed he had no choice but to join Horus - after all how could the Emperor condone what had happened on Olympus? In my opinion Peturabo and Angron, and their legions, have always been the greatest tragedies of 30k

 

EDIT: On the Iron Warriors themselves, they are a legion who has become accustomed to the long, gruelling work of siege warfare. More than perhaps any other legion they have had to say goodbye to their closest brothers, having lost them to either attrition or garrison duty. They are masters at applying abstract mathematics to martial situations in the same way that the Ultramarines do with tactical theoreticals and seem to be one of the few legions that pride themselves on their different cities of origin (I'm sure someone has the quote about tattoos etc). Add into that the same bitterness and growing disillusionment that afflicts the Death Guard, and finally the guilt of what they did on Olympia - of how they washed the streets with the blood of their own people.

 

 

Thank you, this is exactly the kind of stuff I am looking for, I never viewed Perturabo's resignment to "drawling in the mud" as AE puts it as too be more out of loyalty/fealty to the Emperor than his once-I-start-I-will-finish nature. 

 

Do I believe correctly you meant to say Perturabo wanted to be more of an architect than a destroyer of cities, as I understood from AE?

 

The thing that makes the Space Wolves the most loyal, in their own eyes, is that there are no limitations to that loyalty. All other Primarchs have a visible breaking point, including Dorn, Sanguinius and Guilliman, those otherwise seen as the more loyal. If the Emperor goes far enough against their grain, the Primarchs would stand against him. If the Emperor thought Guilliman was spending too much time empire-building and told him off for not using his vaster resources to go even faster, Guilliman wouldn't take it well. Don't leave the worlds better off, just burn them, conquer them and move on? Sanguinius thought his father would bring a better future, but if this was proven false he would have doubts. Dorn was the Emperor's champion, but there are things Dorn can't countenance or favor. If the Emperor began to do or say those things, Dorn would waver. Russ, though? It doesn't matter what the Emperor does or commands, he would do it. I'm sure that's not actually the case, but it's their own over-exaggeration. It's what they believe. They may have a breaking point, when not even they could remain loyal to the Emperor, but it's a lot farther down the line than any other Primarch.

 

The thing that differentiates the Emperor's Children from the Ultramarines is adaptability. Actually, I can do that better. Both the Ultramarines and the Emperor's Children are about perfecting war. It's true, in the Horus Heresy they're being portrayed very similarly. But the key difference, and to me it's all the difference in the world, is what they view the state of perfection as. To the Emperor's Children, perfection is a sole stagnant state. You attain it, you remain at it, you're good. And most importantly, there's only the one. To the Ultramarines, perfection is an infinite number of inconstant solutions. You don't attain it and you can't remain there. All you can do is hunt as many of them down as you can, in all their myriad possibilities, apply them contextually to the matter at hand and move on. The Codex Astartes is really a journal of that never-ending search. 

 

This is why I like the Ultramarines far more than I like the Emperor's Children (and I don't just mean this because I'm more for the loyalists than the traitors), because they have a far more practical outlook. And I think it's a superior one, too, and the fluff agrees with me. The Emperor's Children, though beginning at a disadvantage and legendary at war nonetheless, don't match up to the capabilities, resources and list of victories as the Ultramarines for a reason. They may share a similar pursuit, but the Emperor's Children are close-minded and singular in its approach while the Ultramarines are not. It's true that the Ultramarines are the ultimate vanilla marines, but that's more due to the opinion of the audience than what the fluff actually illustrates. It's easy to see the biggest Legion, split up into the vast majority of Chapters and by far the most common primogenitor chosen as the blank template. But that's a virtue of the myriad variations made to the base origin, thanks to the vast multitudes that can be found, while the others, being of far less frequency, are able to hold onto their individual personalities. If you have three shades of yellow, and sixty shades of blue, any one shade of yellow is going to look more distinctive than any one shade of blue, y'know?

 

Sanguinius, and by extension, the Blood Angels are the most humane of pre-Heresy Primarchs and Legions. Vulkan, and by extension, the Salamanders, came into their humane attitudes eventually. They may not have been as inhumane as others, like Curze or Angron, but Vulkan had to come to an epiphany before he and his Legion became what they are most known for in 40k. Alternatively, following the death of Sanguinius and the encroaching Flaws, the Blood Angels became less humane over the millennia. However, Lorgar and the Word Bearers could also be seen as the most humane, prior to their discovery of the Chaos Gods (and to some, probably afterwards to). Personally, I think it's a toss up between Sanguinius, Guilliman and Vulkan, who would eventually become the most humane of the three.

 

Excellent as well, thanks for your reply Cormac. If I understand your remarks about the wolves being that they would never say no to the Emperor, then could we say that unlike the other non-terran, inducted post-Primarch-found legionaires of other legions, even a Wolf with Russ genetics will view his loyalties as (TOP) Emperor - Russ -Legion/Humanity etc (BOTTOM) Rather than the Primarch and his wishes at the top as the rest of the legions.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, if Russ ever went traitor, you are saying almost every single Wolf, to a sensible degree, would be confined to the first wave of Istvaan III in an ideal world of Russ rather than just terran ones (that have a predisposition of loyalty to Terra first) and a few domestic oddities, which comprised the first wave on Istvaan in their counterparts Sons of Horus, Death Guard and Luna Wolves (ignoring EC since many were sent for lack of skill/passion for perfection)?

[Sevatar]

Iron Hands - imho, the best of all all Legions - 'We must become monsters so that all humanity does not.' These guys make the ultimate sacrifice, their humanity, to herd and protect the rest of the Imperium.

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

Yes - Peturabo dreamed of Olympia becoming as perfect as Olympus, of building at Nikea a great theatre; of a cultural masterpiece; he got fortresses and his Nikean dream became the place of his brother's shame - a courthouse. He should never have been a general, it twisted him and made him a pawn of Chaos - if he'd have been the Imperium's great architect (rebuilding key worlds in his brothers' wake, fortifying the Imperial Palace, etc) he would have been the most loyal and incorruptible of the Emperor's sons.

 

For more information look at the 'Dorn or Peturabo?' thread in this sub-forum. Some of the posts really explore Peturabo and his attitudes.

[blackoption]

@ Cormac Airt:

I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the difference between Ultramarines and Emperor's Children. However, I'd like to add my own two cents when it comes to the Ultramarines, of all the 18 Legions, the Ultramarines stand out as the most professional.  While Dorn and the Lion are Knights, Russ is the Nordic Viking Ideal, World Eaters are Gladitor Warriors, the Ultramarines have always been Professional Soldiers. Well, at least that is my interpratation of the Ultramarines.

 

I could probably go on talking about the difference between soldiers when compared to the other various forms of warriors, but that might be a little Off topic.

 

To me, each legion always seemed to have an underlying ideal or trait that they have immersed in. For example:

 

Dark Angels: Vigilance

Emperor's Children: Glory

Blood Angels: Nobility

Night Lords: Vengeance

Iron Hands: Defiance (of weakness, not authority)

World Eaters: Wrath

Ultramarines: Professionalism

Sons Of Horus: Power

Death Guard: Endurance

...ect

[Vesper]

 

Luna Wolves: navy seals

?

wut ?

[Peter the Hermit]

 

 

Luna Wolves: navy seals

?

wut ?

Huh? LoL

[Kais Klip]

Iron Hands - imho, the best of all all Legions - 'We must become monsters so that all humanity does not.' These guys make the ultimate sacrifice, their humanity, to herd and protect the rest of the Imperium.

You are saying they turned themselves into monsters by turning away from flesh? Then would I be wrong to say that because Ferrus despised (might be too strong a word) the legion's obsession with the weakness of flesh, then logically Ferrus also despised their yearn to turn themselves into monsters? I'm not daring to say that he did not want them to make a sacrifice such as that, but perhaps someone might?

My last point is arn't the World Eaters, amongst any other things they might be, the "Monsters of and for Humanity", as put forward by the quote on their history in Betrayal (why does it suprise the wise man that humanity might need monsters of its own if it is too survive).

Yes - Peturabo dreamed of Olympia becoming as perfect as Olympus, of building at Nikea a great theatre; of a cultural masterpiece; he got fortresses and his Nikean dream became the place of his brother's shame - a courthouse. He should never have been a general, it twisted him and made him a pawn of Chaos - if he'd have been the Imperium's great architect (rebuilding key worlds in his brothers' wake, fortifying the Imperial Palace, etc) he would have been the most loyal and incorruptible of the Emperor's sons.

For more information look at the 'Dorn or Peturabo?' thread in this sub-forum. Some of the posts really explore Peturabo and his attitudes.

Ah, so we can essentially view Perturabo as much as "resentful" of his war duty as Lorgar?

@ Cormac Airt:

I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the difference between Ultramarines and Emperor's Children. However, I'd like to add my own two cents when it comes to the Ultramarines, of all the 18 Legions, the Ultramarines stand out as the most professional. While Dorn and the Lion are Knights, Russ is the Nordic Viking Ideal, World Eaters are Gladitor Warriors, the Ultramarines have always been Professional Soldiers. Well, at least that is my interpratation of the Ultramarines.

I could probably go on talking about the difference between soldiers when compared to the other various forms of warriors, but that might be a little Off topic.

To me, each legion always seemed to have an underlying ideal or trait that they have immersed in. For example:

Dark Angels: Vigilance

Emperor's Children: Glory

Blood Angels: Nobility

Night Lords: Vengeance

Iron Hands: Defiance (of weakness, not authority)

World Eaters: Wrath

Ultramarines: Professionalism

Sons Of Horus: Power

Death Guard: Endurance

...ect

This is most effective and insightful list to my aims out of any lists i have seen so far, not that I am looking for lists though. I am always a big fan of the primal desire that is fury/wrath . Another reason I looked at world eaters/war hounds is that I learned of the difference and immediately preferred warriors to soldiers. In a war I think I want my lads to be more worried about taking lives than preserving lives, sort of like safety from spies through killing everyone in the room. Not sure that is still warm to me as it once was though.

Neverending edit: Whats your train of thought when you arrived at Dark Angels and Vigilance? I might see where you are coming from with Night Lords, but I'm not completely sure about Vengeance, they are more concerned with the answer being the former to a question of wherever it is better to be feared or loved are they not (as Curze was proved wrong when his planet went back to it's good ol' ways after his departure)?

Feel like I must nitpick though, for is Endurance not Defiance? One of the many problems is that some of each Legions' apparent characterless seem to bleed into others so they must be cancelled out, making me even more frustrated and wanting to go deeper.

[Blacksad]

let's try and rephrase it then... 

 

 

Dark Angels: Medieval Knights, think Arthur / Mordred / Lancelot

to the outside world the paragons of chivalric pride, but in truth a bunch of selfcentered arrogant prats

ultramarines: Roman Empire

focussed on perfecting the art of war through the study of their enemies, taking what they can use of their tactics and technologies, discarting what they can't

White Scars: Mongol Horsemen

fastmoving thrillseekers, constantly on the lookout for the next big hunt; practicaly claustrophobic

Space Wolves: bands of viking brothers

the most important thing is the pack, the band of brothers. that, in a vikingthemed society

Imperial Fists: Greec Phalanx

the ultimate defenders. shieldwall. in my mind, the Tactical Dreadnought Armour is built with them in mind.

World Eaters: Berserkers

fairly self-explanatory. kinda like hunting hawks, you point them towards an enemy, remove the cap, and watch them tear through it. the only problem is getting the cap back on... maybe before the butcher's nails they were different

Emperor's Children: japanese / chinese styled swordsaints

like many said, also focussed on perfection, but in my mind more the personal perfection, and not so the army-wide perfection

Night Lords: Batman (- the non-killing bit)

there's this alternate universe with catwoman as the hero, and batman the psychokiller she needs to stop. that batman. times thousands

Word Bearers: Crusaders (I know, I know, the black templar are meant for this, but... well...)

a bunch of retarded religeous zealots bent on reforming the universe...

Blood Angels: Twilight Vampires with an attitude

not worth the time I spent typing that they aren't worth the time typing about them

Salamanders: UN bluehelms

Death Guard: the slave army from song of fire and ice (game of thrones)

ask no questions, do what must be done, as efficiently as possible.

Thousand Sons: Warlocks / arcane archers

Alpha legion: cylon infiltrators / ninja

Luna Wolves: navy seals

I named the navy seals because they're seen as the best. No matter the task, they're up for it.

 

 

as to character of the legions, well... they are ALL mentaly children with superpowers... there's no clean cut rule for it.

[Kais Klip]

let's try and rephrase it then... 

 

 

Dark Angels: Medieval Knights, think Arthur / Mordred / Lancelot

to the outside world the paragons of chivalric pride, but in truth a bunch of selfcentered arrogant prats

ultramarines: Roman Empire

focussed on perfecting the art of war through the study of their enemies, taking what they can use of their tactics and technologies, discarting what they can't

White Scars: Mongol Horsemen

fastmoving thrillseekers, constantly on the lookout for the next big hunt; practicaly claustrophobic

Space Wolves: bands of viking brothers

the most important thing is the pack, the band of brothers. that, in a vikingthemed society

Imperial Fists: Greec Phalanx

the ultimate defenders. shieldwall. in my mind, the Tactical Dreadnought Armour is built with them in mind.

World Eaters: Berserkers

fairly self-explanatory. kinda like hunting hawks, you point them towards an enemy, remove the cap, and watch them tear through it. the only problem is getting the cap back on... maybe before the butcher's nails they were different

Emperor's Children: japanese / chinese styled swordsaints

like many said, also focussed on perfection, but in my mind more the personal perfection, and not so the army-wide perfection

Night Lords: Batman (- the non-killing bit)

there's this alternate universe with catwoman as the hero, and batman the psychokiller she needs to stop. that batman. times thousands

Word Bearers: Crusaders (I know, I know, the black templar are meant for this, but... well...)

a bunch of retarded religeous zealots bent on reforming the universe...

Blood Angels: Twilight Vampires with an attitude

not worth the time I spent typing that they aren't worth the time typing about them

Salamanders: UN bluehelms

Death Guard: the slave army from song of fire and ice (game of thrones)

ask no questions, do what must be done, as efficiently as possible.

Thousand Sons: Warlocks / arcane archers

Alpha legion: cylon infiltrators / ninja

Luna Wolves: navy seals

I named the navy seals because they're seen as the best. No matter the task, they're up for it.

 

 

as to character of the legions, well... they are ALL mentaly children with superpowers... there's no clean cut rule for it.

 

Heheh thanks, that was more towards what I was looking for. 

 

I always did view them that way, perhaps the Primarchs more than the Legions, but even non-terran (who seem to me as always being the most sensible of the lot) legionaries always made me want to slap them, and thats not even talking about Lucius' performance in Galaxy of Flames (first time, and last, I tried to break a table with a book.) 

 

Saying that, despite my yearn to pull Mechanicus/Imperial Army, I do love the brutality/effectiveness of the Astartes, so I still need to pick one of the little fethers.

 

Moar opinions, I've already changed my mind half a dozen times and I'm loving it. Let the galaxy burn with hotly debated opinions. Would love some controversial  - but sensible - viewpoints!

[Flint13]

Focusing on brotherhood isn't a good defining choice in my opinion since it's the one trait that is universal across the Legions. Stronger in some than others granted, but theres a small observation in Blood Game where a Custode notes that in comparison, it is brotherhood that binds a Legion together rather than duty.

That being said, I like the way you're going about deciding on a Legion. I won't go through all 18 because I'm feeling too lazy but I'll try and pin down something on a few I've taken an interest in since which Legion to take is a question that continues to torment me.

Vlaka Fenryka - Loyalty to the Emperor. I think this supercedes all their other traits because it is unique to them. They will ALWAYS, regardles of command, obey the Emperor in everything, as the Thousand Sons could attest.

Night Lords - Generating Fear, not as a means to an end but as the end itself. A legion of rapists, torturers and killers coming to the realisation of their power and using it for their own ends because those ends are not being met by the Imperium, mainly because they lack the original conviction of the Night Haunter - For this I strongly recommend reading Prince of Crows

I have to disagree with you there, Balth. It seems the view of the use of fear was *radically* different between different Nightlords companys and even individuals. Keep in mind, just like not all Nightlords were Nostraman, not all of them were the worst type of criminal. Only once the Haunter left the planet did it start to backslide into the depravity that he had "rescued" it from.

In Lord of the Night, Simon Spurrier speaks about this directly. Zso Sahaal is disgusted by the way Kreig Acerbus has fallen into the thrall of something daemonic (much like Vandred), and that his legion, once an effective scapel has devolved into mad dogs that no longer use fear as a means to an end, but cause it just for the sake of bringing terror to those lesser than themselves.

In A D-B's newer novels, we see a much wider range of views. Talos seems to hold to the "old" ways of using fear as a weapon to keep discipline unquestioning. Cyrion uses fear like a drug or sustinence. Vandred seems to use fear (especially in his bridgecrew) as a tool to unnerve mortals into respect and honesty.

I do realize we're trying to sum up legions in just a few words, but I would say "Fear as a weapon" is much more accurate. A weapon can be used by highly trained military experts to do exactly what needs to be done with minimal casualties or a weapon can be used to indiscriminatedly slaughter those who are otherwise not even involved in the conflict.

Tiny rant done!

[Blacksad]

just one question: did it work?

 

edit: the breaking a table with a book that is...

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

I don't think he's truly resentful - a part of him is, and it manifests as his bitterness towards Dorn, who got to leave the war behind and work on adding to the greatest structure in the Imperium. I think he genuinely believes that he has to grin and bear it because if he can't do it noone else can.

Picture it - for 150 years Peturabo leads his Legion through the worst sieges and grimmest trench warzones because that is where the Emperor and the Warmaster sends him, because he is told he is the great siege expert - the master fortress builder. Then the Emperor announces he is retiring to Terra and is taking a single legion to fortify his palace. At last, Peturabo thinks, I am being acknowledged - for 150 years I have been told I am the greatest builder of fortifications in the Imperium and now my brothers will see me for what I am! But no, Dorn is chosen - all Peturabo has done has been for naught and Perurabo the artist, the architect, is left without purpose, having split his legion into countless garrisons and spat on by his father for all he has done.

 

Even then, he somehow manages to ignore the whispers of chaos and carry on until the dreadful days on Olympia - few other Primarch have such fortitude IMHO.

[Peter the Hermit]

DA  -  mystery monks 

SW  - check the new Vikings serie and their table manners

LW  - real barbarians (Fulgrim considered them the same as SW)

BA  - check @Blacksad post

EC  - check {@Blacksad  post and add "Hentai Anime" to japanesse

IF   - Empy's pretorians

[Balthamal]

Indeed I tried to provide alternative views to the mainstream fandom because, as the well known case of the Vlaka Fenryka demonstrates, some legions have fanboys so rabid that they've literally canonized some of the material presented in ambiguous way. For myself I like to look at things more objectively since most of the opinions given are subjective.

 

To use the Wolves example, if you were to make a post in the SW forum querying this its fairly certain a large number of posts would be of the kind acclaiming the Wolves as the most rock hard legion who can't be beaten blah blah blah. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's an opinion not a confirmed fact. I have my own take on it (as in my original reply) which stuck with me once Jarl Ogvai explained it to the skjald - not only do they have this insane degree of loyaly to the Emperor (which probably comes from the fact Russ would obey anyone able to defeat him - no concrete but a possibility given his psyche) but they take pride in having it as well, which I think sets it apart.

 

As far as the World Eaters/Warhounds go, some of Khârn's musings point in the direction that prior to the Nails being taken on by the Legion, they were still pretty damn ferocious just hadn't crossed the line in psychotic butcher territory. They were certainly no saints either, they inflicted Decimation (I'm assuming the Roman form, which to say the least was brutal) on allies they considered had dishonoured them so another angle to this could be were Angron's genetics the driving force behind such fury and did the Nails merely magnify what was already present.

 

Flint13 - You've probably done a far better job than me explaining that, especially referencing Talos since one of the defining arcs of his story is his moving on from believing that Fear is the weapon the VIII live by into understanding that many of his brothers do it for the sheer joy. If memory serves me right theres a passage in Void Stalker where he admits he is no longer deluded in the belief that the whole Legion shares his thinking. The only other thing I'd add is the rather important point Sevatar lays out for the Night Haunter - He could have tried different methods but he didn't because he came to enjoy it, even with a Legion at his command  he remained on the same path. To be honest I think Sevatar is the basis of my view on the Night Lords, He veers between being the kind of 1st Captain you see in Sigismund and Raldoron and the other extreme of being a complete sociopath who kills and flays because that is within the power that has been given to him

 

Finally a note on Perturabo, I think everyone agrees that his bitterness is a defining trait but I'd go even further and say it's despair - at heart he's a builder/architect/creator and that's what he'd like to actually do given the things he's built and prepared schematics for. By extension to knowing how to build he knows how to destroy, which he continues to do because that's what is required of him even though he hopes that eventually he will be able to create for a change - as it turns out his Legion is ground into the dirt by the nature of the warfare he specialises in, his own world rebels crushing the dreams he had for it (Angel Exterminatus) and after everything he has endured in the hope that he may finally get to do what he wants, his greatest rival is tasked with making additions to the greatest structure in the galaxy. As a well known villain said, there can be no true despair without hope.

 

Apologies for the long windedness

[Blacksad]

Indeed I tried to provide alternative views to the mainstream fandom because, as the well known case of the Vlaka Fenryka demonstrates, some legions have fanboys so rabid that they've literally canonized some of the material presented in ambiguous way. For myself I like to look at things more objectively since most of the opinions given are subjective.

 

To use the Wolves example, if you were to make a post in the SW forum querying this its fairly certain a large number of posts would be of the kind acclaiming the Wolves as the most rock hard legion who can't be beaten blah blah blah. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's an opinion not a confirmed fact. I have my own take on it (as in my original reply) which stuck with me once Jarl Ogvai explained it to the skjald - not only do they have this insane degree of loyaly to the Emperor (which probably comes from the fact Russ would obey anyone able to defeat him - no concrete but a possibility given his psyche) but they take pride in having it as well, which I think sets it apart.

blah blah blah nagg nagg nagg wolf playerz are :cusszz blah. If people would stop stating stupid things like that as fact, maybe wolf players would be less offended by moronic idiots claiming all wolf players are rabid fanboys.

 

We ARE the most rock hard chapter of all chapters carying the geneseed of Leman Russ. other than that, we're just as rock-hard as anyone else.

Russ does not obey anyone able to defeat him. if he did, He'd be obeying Angron, and many of the other primarchs, and daemons, and probably a whole lot more species that contain at least one member capable of defeating him. He obeys the emperor because it's what they agreed on.  if the emperor defeats Russ, Russ obeys him. that was the deal. Russ is simply true to his word.

 

really now, what is it with people's narrowminded unfounded hatred for space wolf players? Like there's no morons in other chapter's playerspool? I recently posted on the Blood Angel forum and got flamed for helping a Blood Angel player tailor his list to defeat a wolf list, flamed by a blood angels player. he even chased me in PM. should I now start spreading the word that ALL blood angel players are arrogant bitchy stupid :cusss? I don't think so.

 

SO COULD YOU PLEASE STOP DOING THAT WITH WOLF PLAYERS?