Legion Characteristics

[Kais Klip]

just one question: did it work?

edit: the breaking a table with a book that is...

I did say it was the last time

Indeed I tried to provide alternative views to the mainstream fandom because, as the well known case of the Vlaka Fenryka demonstrates, some legions have fanboys so rabid that they've literally canonized some of the material presented in ambiguous way. For myself I like to look at things more objectively since most of the opinions given are subjective.

To use the Wolves example, if you were to make a post in the SW forum querying this its fairly certain a large number of posts would be of the kind acclaiming the Wolves as the most rock hard legion who can't be beaten blah blah blah. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's an opinion not a confirmed fact. I have my own take on it (as in my original reply) which stuck with me once Jarl Ogvai explained it to the skjald - not only do they have this insane degree of loyaly to the Emperor (which probably comes from the fact Russ would obey anyone able to defeat him - no concrete but a possibility given his psyche) but they take pride in having it as well, which I think sets it apart.

As far as the World Eaters/Warhounds go, some of Khârn's musings point in the direction that prior to the Nails being taken on by the Legion, they were still pretty damn ferocious just hadn't crossed the line in psychotic butcher territory. They were certainly no saints either, they inflicted Decimation (I'm assuming the Roman form, which to say the least was brutal) on allies they considered had dishonoured them so another angle to this could be were Angron's genetics the driving force behind such fury and did the Nails merely magnify what was already present.

Apologies for the long windedness

That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid, or rather compensate for, in that I'd hate to have my legion's commited ideologies revealed in truth for the first time a la Angron's Courage & Honour speech to Guilliman in Betrayer and find myself wanting to play against the guys I've painted. I guess my fondness for story repeats from the antagonist side has made me want to hear some of the more commonly-suffocated opinions of my fellow fans. On that note, I've always wondered why the Fenryka boys and their detractors have been so prevalently vocal, despite their Legion preferences hehe.

Saying that, I'm starting to again wobble between Wolves and War Hounds, really liking the apparent loyalty of the former but not being a fan of the Viking aspect; I'm fan of the loyal/ferocious-like-a-dog attribute of both hence the uncertainty, but I'm thinking Khârn's comments in Betrayer's prologue will eventually swing it to the former; in the end I think I value dogged loyalty over dogged ferocity, question is wherever I am right to pin it on said legions.

Where does this Wolf loyalty come from? Is it loyalty for the sake or pride of being loyal to something or is it loyalty out of need like Sanguinius'?

I would look at Ultramarines also were it not for the feeling that they are more soldiers and warriors, perhaps being out of Guilliman's intent for a place for them after the Crusades had finished. Writing that does make it sound more sensible, so I guess I'll greatly enjoy reading the whole Unremembered Empire theme.

Edit: Blacksad answered my vocality query; many are rather yanking their tails. I'd rather not have it spread to this thread so I withdraw the question.

On another note, what do you lads think of Angron's remark that Honour is defying a tyrant such as the Big E and Courage is fighting his Imperium? I personally view such tyrannical and other negative attributes of the Emperor as sufferable costs considering the benefit he brings, but do any of you think such truth, if it is a truth, demeans the Ultramarines and other loyalist Legions in any way?

[Vesper]

So you want ferrocious, brutal and merciless folks with a sense of brotherhood ? Our chtonian Sons of Horus look like they fit to the description.

[Balthamal]

If you'd taken the time to read my reply carefully instead of jumping on that high horse, you'll note I said a large number, I did not say it would be universal nor did I say that every SW player is a fan boy who absolutly has to be right. I also stated that it wasn't wrong to have this opinion, and that is exactly what it is, an opinion. Based on my own experience, the majority of SW players I've come across ARE rabid fanboys (I recall one screaming in my face that the Thousand Sons would never manage to breach the Fang, go figure). 

 

As far as the meat and drink of my post go, that's how I see it. I wasn't asked if it was fact, I was asked for an opinion, so I provided one. Now if you don't agree with that, it's fine. You're entitled to disagree. If my own opinion about a number of space wolves players offends you then I apologise since that wasn't my intention.

 

All I will say is, if you want to make a case of why SW players are not rabid fanboys, I suggest not replying like, well, a rabid fanboy

[Peter the Hermit]

I think SW loyalty comes from their culture...Just look at their warlike tribes and constant shifting of continets....

I mean, you need your brothers and your elder wisdom to survive....as individual you are dead  -loyal to a tribe, you have a fair chance....Just my 2 cents on that...

 

Just don't buy "emperor inserted dog dna" jokes....

 

 

P:S: I think all loyalist primarch were put to test (and passed with flying colors), none of them is above other on that regard...Only difference is that some of them like to do stuff "their way"....

[Kais Klip]

So you want ferrocious, brutal and merciless folks with a sense of brotherhood ? Our chtonian Sons of Horus look like they fit to the description.

 

More importantly loyal; I wouldn't want my a*se bitten in the night. 

 

Lets try this: if there are three "canine" legions, then how does each one differ from the others in their canine aspect? Doggedly loyal, doggedly ferocious, doggedly... ? Seems to me this might end up being a case of pick two out of three!

[Conn Eremon]

And they have their own dog theme as the Luna Wolves.

 

As for your question last page about the what if result of Russ going traitor, I don't know. Absolute loyalty to Russ is absolute loyalty to the Emperor is absolute loyalty to Russ. To them, there is no difference at all.

 

So if Russ went traitor and purged his Legion at Isstvan III, he'd either purge his whole Legion, or purge the least of any other Legion.

 

It's almost like the Word Bearers. The Emperor was their God. Lorgar wanted them to betray their God. And they did, easily. The Wolves could be no different or they could be the exact opposite. Their personalities and portrayals allow for both possibilities equally.

[Balthamal]

just one question: did it work?

edit: the breaking a table with a book that is...

I did say it was the last time

>>Indeed I tried to provide alternative views to the mainstream fandom because, as the well known case of the Vlaka Fenryka demonstrates, some legions have fanboys so rabid that they've literally canonized some of the material presented in ambiguous way. For myself I like to look at things more objectively since most of the opinions given are subjective.

To use the Wolves example, if you were to make a post in the SW forum querying this its fairly certain a large number of posts would be of the kind acclaiming the Wolves as the most rock hard legion who can't be beaten blah blah blah. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's an opinion not a confirmed fact. I have my own take on it (as in my original reply) which stuck with me once Jarl Ogvai explained it to the skjald - not only do they have this insane degree of loyaly to the Emperor (which probably comes from the fact Russ would obey anyone able to defeat him - no concrete but a possibility given his psyche) but they take pride in having it as well, which I think sets it apart.

As far as the World Eaters/Warhounds go, some of Khârn's musings point in the direction that prior to the Nails being taken on by the Legion, they were still pretty damn ferocious just hadn't crossed the line in psychotic butcher territory. They were certainly no saints either, they inflicted Decimation (I'm assuming the Roman form, which to say the least was brutal) on allies they considered had dishonoured them so another angle to this could be were Angron's genetics the driving force behind such fury and did the Nails merely magnify what was already present.

Apologies for the long windedness

That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid, or rather compensate for, in that I'd hate to have my legion's commited ideologies revealed in truth for the first time a la Angron's Courage & Honour speech to Guilliman in Betrayer and find myself wanting to play against the guys I've painted. I guess my fondness for story repeats from the antagonist side has made me want to hear some of the more commonly-suffocated opinions of my fellow fans. On that note, I've always wondered why the Fenryka boys and their detractors have been so prevalently vocal, despite their Legion preferences hehe.

Saying that, I'm starting to again wobble between Wolves and War Hounds, really liking the apparent loyalty of the former but not being a fan of the Viking aspect; I'm fan of the loyal/ferocious-like-a-dog attribute of both hence the uncertainty, but I'm thinking Khârn's comments in Betrayer's prologue will eventually swing it to the former; in the end I think I value dogged loyalty over dogged ferocity, question is wherever I am right to pin it on said legions.

Where does this Wolf loyalty come from? Is it loyalty for the sake or pride of being loyal to something or is it loyalty out of need like Sanguinius'?

It's a good question. Personally I think it was something that was already present, since we can assume that before the Primarchs were reunited with their Legions all Astartes would have had fanatical loyalty to the Emperor. Given the environment Russ was raised I think it's fair to say that he would only reinforce the emphasis on loyalty, especially since his other defining trait would be his honour. After being smacked down by the Emperor, he'd given his word that he would submit and with any honourable man their given word is as important to them as their life itself/

It's implied that the Fenryka were used to sanction legions and that raises another question, were they used because of their loyalty? or did this merely reinforce what was already present

I should also probably add that I love what Dan Abnett did with them in Prospero burns, they're certainly one of the more interesting Legions now they've shrugged off the old Vikings in Space tag. Fingers crossed this continues for the rest of the series because I'd hate to see someone not do them further justice

[Vesper]

 

So you want ferrocious, brutal and merciless folks with a sense of brotherhood ? Our chtonian Sons of Horus look like they fit to the description.

 

More importantly loyal; I wouldn't want my a*se bitten in the night. 

Loyal to the Warmaster !

[Peter the Hermit]

LW and SW are dog themed ? BA are ?????..........................la chupacabras?

[Peter the Hermit]

 

 

So you want ferrocious, brutal and merciless folks with a sense of brotherhood ? Our chtonian Sons of Horus look like they fit to the description.

 

More importantly loyal; I wouldn't want my a*se bitten in the night. 

Loyal to the Warmaster !

Actually they were...Who would you pick as more loyal; Loken (let him die) or Abby(ritual)?

*put aside your chaotic pov for a minute* I really want to know...

[Balthamal]

 

 

 

So you want ferrocious, brutal and merciless folks with a sense of brotherhood ? Our chtonian Sons of Horus look like they fit to the description.

 

More importantly loyal; I wouldn't want my a*se bitten in the night. 

Loyal to the Warmaster !

Actually they were...Who would you pick as more loyal; Loken (let him die) or Abby(ritual)?

*put aside your chaotic pov for a minute* I really want to know...

 

I think you could say Loken was more loyal to the ideal of the Warmaster in that he wouldn't resort to anything the Emperor had forbidden in order to save his life and that if he had to die, he'd die defending the Imperium whilst Ezekyle certianly had more of a personal loyalty, to the point where'd do absolutely anything to save him

[Kais Klip]

And they have their own dog theme as the Luna Wolves.

 

As for your question last page about the what if result of Russ going traitor, I don't know. Absolute loyalty to Russ is absolute loyalty to the Emperor is absolute loyalty to Russ. To them, there is no difference at all.

 

So if Russ went traitor and purged his Legion at Isstvan III, he'd either purge his whole Legion, or purge the least of any other Legion.

 

It's almost like the Word Bearers. The Emperor was their God. Lorgar wanted them to betray their God. And they did, easily. The Wolves could be no different or they could be the exact opposite. Their personalities and portrayals allow for both possibilities equally.

 

It's not that I have a particular thing for dogs/wolves, its just I can't help but greatly admire their commitment and how reckless they look when bounding forwards to bite some poor aforementioned a*se. That along with today's positive connotations towards dog-like personal qualities (in contrast to social views of the past) is what piques my attention when I see such views displayed by legions. 

 

 

 

I should also probably add that I love what Dan Abnett did with them in Prospero burns, they're certainly one of the more interesting Legions now they've shrugged off the old Vikings in Space tag. Fingers crossed this continues for the rest of the series because I'd hate to see someone not do them further justice

 

 

Not being able to shake that Vikings tag is exactly my problem; I'll be re-reading the book this week but where does Abnett discredit such tag as you say? I thought he reinforced their "natural" or traditional (remember by memory) way of life that I connect with Vikings (wrongly?). 

 

LW and SW are dog themed ? BA are ?????..........................la chupacabras?

 

Not taken at face value like that, merely the canine themes within narrative; does each Legion respect the attributes I remarked upon or do they see something more worthy in wolves that I don't? 

 

EDIT: Since we're on the topic, I recall an in-narrative conversation regarding which one of the legions is the toughest  while reading some threads last week: the point that an  Imperial Fist if I remember correctly responded with the Wolves because "they are clinically insane". I'm not questioning wherever they are the toughest, rather questioning why said character (and dare I say perhaps the author?) would attribute clinical insanity to any legion other than World Eaters?  Might've the character been misinformed or was the date before the formation of the World Eaters out of the War Hounds? 

[Peter the Hermit]

You mean the quoting system itself

[Balthamal]

 

And they have their own dog theme as the Luna Wolves.

 

As for your question last page about the what if result of Russ going traitor, I don't know. Absolute loyalty to Russ is absolute loyalty to the Emperor is absolute loyalty to Russ. To them, there is no difference at all.

 

So if Russ went traitor and purged his Legion at Isstvan III, he'd either purge his whole Legion, or purge the least of any other Legion.

 

It's almost like the Word Bearers. The Emperor was their God. Lorgar wanted them to betray their God. And they did, easily. The Wolves could be no different or they could be the exact opposite. Their personalities and portrayals allow for both possibilities equally.

 

It's not that I have a particular thing for dogs/wolves, its just I can't help but greatly admire their commitment and how reckless they look when bounding forwards to bite some poor aforementioned a*se. 

 

> 

 

It's a good question. Personally I think it was something that was already present, since we can assume that before the Primarchs were reunited with their Legions all Astartes would have had fanatical loyalty to the Emperor. Given the environment Russ was raised I think it's fair to say that he would only reinforce the emphasis on loyalty, especially since his other defining trait would be his honour. After being smacked down by the Emperor, he'd given his word that he would submit and with any honourable man their given word is as important to them as their life itself/

 

It's implied that the Fenryka were used to sanction legions and that raises another question, were they used because of their loyalty? or did this merely reinforce what was already present

 

I should also probably add that I love what Dan Abnett did with them in Prospero burns, they're certainly one of the more interesting Legions now they've shrugged off the old Vikings in Space tag. Fingers crossed this continues for the rest of the series because I'd hate to see someone not do them further justice

 

Not being able to shake that Vikings tag is exactly my problem; I'll be re-reading the book this week but where does Abnett discredit such tag as you say? I thought he reinforced their "natural" or traditional (remember by memory) way of life that I connect with Vikings (wrongly?).  

 

Sorry I didn't explain that very well. What I meant to say was Dan Abnett added a further dimension to them. Ever since I got into the game in 2nd Ed, The Space Wolves have always had a generic Vikings tag. Which isn't bad as far as it goes, if the Legions have to be based on cultures the least they could do is pick interesting ones. My only gripe was that seemed to be the extent of it. There'd be the fighting and drinking ale and fur pelts but that was it. Whereas the real Vikings went a hell of a lot further, which is what we've started to see in more recent material.

 

By introducing the ambiguous possibility that the Wolves are the chosen "get back in line beatstick" of the Emperor (and its still a toss up either way) theres more depth to them which has sparked the question that sort of started this thread, where does their loyalty derive from? 

[Peter the Hermit]

Here is funny story how Russ was knocked by the Emperor AGAIN, it always make me laugh :

 

They spoke of Russ himself, not the blessed Primarch Russ, but the black haired, flame eyed warrior who was more wolf than
man. They spoke of his rough manner and intemperate heart, of his wild oaths and petty rivalries, of his melancholy nature and his
merciless rage. 'He drove us all to distraction,' Bulveye said ruefully. 'I remember one time when he'd got Horus so worked up I
thought they were going to come to blows. The Allfather got between them, and Leman punched him full in the jaw.'
Ragnar's eyes widened. 'What happened then?'
Bulveye laughed. 'The Allfather hit Leman so hard he was unconscious for a month. Spent the rest of the campaign flat on his
back aboard the battle-barge.'
One of Bulveye's pack leaders, a warrior named Dagmar, shook his head and chuckled. 'That was the quietest month we ever had,'
he said, and his companions laughed along with him.
'Leman didn't speak to the Allfather for almost a year, but eventually they came around,' the Wolf Lord said with a grin. 'That was
how they were, like a jarl and his sons, always squabbling about one thing or another, but they never forgot the ties of blood and
kin.' Bulveye paused, and his smile faded. 'Well, not until the end.'

 

But Russ punched the Emperor, I mean what a ballz !!!

[Vesper]

 

 

 

So you want ferrocious, brutal and merciless folks with a sense of brotherhood ? Our chtonian Sons of Horus look like they fit to the description.

 

More importantly loyal; I wouldn't want my a*se bitten in the night. 

Loyal to the Warmaster !

Actually they were...Who would you pick as more loyal; Loken (let him die) or Abby(ritual)?

*put aside your chaotic pov for a minute* I really want to know...

As Balthamal pointed out, both are the two sides of a same coin. I think at that very point we could all see them really both as loyal.

[Kais Klip]

 

 

And they have their own dog theme as the Luna Wolves.

 

As for your question last page about the what if result of Russ going traitor, I don't know. Absolute loyalty to Russ is absolute loyalty to the Emperor is absolute loyalty to Russ. To them, there is no difference at all.

 

So if Russ went traitor and purged his Legion at Isstvan III, he'd either purge his whole Legion, or purge the least of any other Legion.

 

It's almost like the Word Bearers. The Emperor was their God. Lorgar wanted them to betray their God. And they did, easily. The Wolves could be no different or they could be the exact opposite. Their personalities and portrayals allow for both possibilities equally.

It's not that I have a particular thing for dogs/wolves, its just I can't help but greatly admire their commitment and how reckless they look when bounding forwards to bite some poor aforementioned a*se. 

 

>> 

 

It's a good question. Personally I think it was something that was already present, since we can assume that before the Primarchs were reunited with their Legions all Astartes would have had fanatical loyalty to the Emperor. Given the environment Russ was raised I think it's fair to say that he would only reinforce the emphasis on loyalty, especially since his other defining trait would be his honour. After being smacked down by the Emperor, he'd given his word that he would submit and with any honourable man their given word is as important to them as their life itself/

 

It's implied that the Fenryka were used to sanction legions and that raises another question, were they used because of their loyalty? or did this merely reinforce what was already present

 

I should also probably add that I love what Dan Abnett did with them in Prospero burns, they're certainly one of the more interesting Legions now they've shrugged off the old Vikings in Space tag. Fingers crossed this continues for the rest of the series because I'd hate to see someone not do them further justice

 

Not being able to shake that Vikings tag is exactly my problem; I'll be re-reading the book this week but where does Abnett discredit such tag as you say? I thought he reinforced their "natural" or traditional (remember by memory) way of life that I connect with Vikings (wrongly?).  

lockquote>

 

Sorry I didn't explain that very well. What I meant to say was Dan Abnett added a further dimension to them. Ever since I got into the game in 2nd Ed, The Space Wolves have always had a generic Vikings tag. Which isn't bad as far as it goes, if the Legions have to be based on cultures the least they could do is pick interesting ones. My only gripe was that seemed to be the extent of it. There'd be the fighting and drinking ale and fur pelts but that was it. Whereas the real Vikings went a hell of a lot further, which is what we've started to see in more recent material.

 

By introducing the ambiguous possibility that the Wolves are the chosen "get back in line beatstick" of the Emperor (and its still a toss up either way) theres more depth to them which has sparked the question that sort of started this thread, where does their loyalty derive from? 

 

I think the problem is I need to brush up on my knowledge on Vikings. If you have anything on top of your head, what other, more commonly over-looked qualities of the Vikings do the Wolves posses? Or even anything that separates them Viking culture were it thrown into a setting with future pew pew and space Shakespeare and all that grimdarkness that we love. 

[A D-B]

'ello 'ello 'ello, 

 

I have a problem. The problem consists of a large space marine force, unpainted but constantly in WIP mode, a tendency towards absolute thinking; try as I might, there are few things in which I allow myself to be a jack-of-all-trades or, as I prefer to refer to it: half-a*sed, and lastly a failure to comprehend the distilled characteristics and ways of each Astartes Legion.

 

The problem is settling on a Legion. That is at least, settling long enough on it as to give me a comfortable window in which to paint the army before longingly returning my gaze to the cupboard filled with Apple-Flavoured Dettol Solution (the bane of grimdark smells, toothbrush heads and paint alike).  

 

After years of playing tau, I decided to clean up my space marines and start an HH army. A long time ago I was a fan of the Alpha Legion, however I decided that the whole subtle, scheming character was not for me and that I was looking for a more blunter practical approach to grimdark warfare. Apart from that, I wouldn't be surprised at myself picking any legion, considering that I will always go loyalist, except for Emperor's Children (because I fail to see them, at their core, as an amplification of your stereotypical vain, prancing swordsmen) and perhaps Thousand Sons (not being a fan of sorcery or scholarly attributes and preferring heart and brawn over mind and... whatever is the domain of Psyk). 

 

Lately, after reading ADB's Betrayer, HH's Betrayal and then scouring for as many tidbits on Heresy World Eaters as I could, I have been as far settled as I ever been in my fondness for the predecessors of World Eaters, the War Hounds. The reason is that the latter's apparent characteristic of aggression and, more importantly, brotherhood striking home with me much deeper than hotter fury of the former. The problem is the small nagging voice that these two apparent characteristics are actually prevalent in all of the legions. This combining with ADB's remarks in Missing primarchs : A simpler than expected answer ?  leads me to believe that the Space Wolves/Rout may actually contain more of a brotherly, characteristic than either WEa or WHs. 

 

Considering that, may I ask of you lads and lasses to temporarily dispose of any rightful understanding of our Legions as complicated, multi-faceted, human-perfections-and-flaws-magnified beasts, and for just a moment, dilute them into, at best, a handful of words, so that I may see each through others' biases and understandings. If my suspicions are correct and the attribute of brotherhood and aggression is resplendent almost equally in all of the Legions, then what is the logical follow-up characteristic to search for, or at least  what characterly aspect does each Legion find itself unique from its other 17 counterparts? 

 

Just to offer a sideways perspective, if you prefer (for example) the Luna Wolves or the War Hounds... playing them isn't the unrealistic anti-canon that it might be perceived off the bat. Think of the scale of the Legions, away from the books where we see a few thousand closest to their primarchs. We're talking armies of 100,000+ warriors in a galaxy where the the most reliable way to get from one world to another is to fly for months/years/decades through a time-distorting underworld roughly equivalent to the Hell of human myth. Every warp jump will see several ships arrive late or early (by any number of days, months or years), or simply not at all - perhaps never to be heard from again. These aren't exceptions or rare "mishaps". It's just life in the setting.

 

Even among those who never fall foul of the Warp - and those that prosecute the Great Crusade perfectly normally as part of their Legion - you'll have entire battalions, companies, Chapters, hosts and hordes of a Legion that have never even met their primarch. That won't be particularly unusual in many Legions; after all, the Christian crusaders never needed to meet Jesus or the Pope to fight in the Crusades. There's a lot of nuance at play, here. Admittedly, the books haven't done a great job of showing it all the time - especially the early novels when the Legion numbers were wrong, and ten times too small - but I suspect we'll see more of it as time passes. That's not a spoiler, just a hunch. I know for my part I've always done my best to scatter the Legions I've dealt with almost from the first moment I touched them. These guys need to be scattered across the galaxy, after all, not all flying around with their primarchs. So the Word Bearers in The First Heretic are plainly everywhere in the galaxy, and the main characters don't see Lorgar's main fleet for 40 years; most of the World Eaters and Word Bearers in Betrayer are scattered throughout an entire Segmentum in many fleets that have nothing to do with each other; the Night Lords completely scatter once they lose the Thramas Crusade in Prince of Crows, and so on.

 

Added to that, you'll have entire subfactions in the Legions with their own attitudes, cultures, iconography, colours, and traditions. All ostensibly loyal to an ideal, but... well, the shades of grey in morality and necessity are what make the Warhammer 40,000 universe such a compelling one.

 

If someone in my Heresy campaign ended up saying "I'm playing loyalist Luna Wolves in the Heresy" I wouldn't cringe the way I would at something like "I'm playing Chaos Warriors but we fight for Karl Franz". I'd think it was awesome and perfectly realistic. 

[Peter the Hermit]

Kais Klip  - Did you watch the new Viking serie on history channel? IMHO  9/10....

[Balthamal]

 

 

And they have their own dog theme as the Luna Wolves.

 

As for your question last page about the what if result of Russ going traitor, I don't know. Absolute loyalty to Russ is absolute loyalty to the Emperor is absolute loyalty to Russ. To them, there is no difference at all.

 

So if Russ went traitor and purged his Legion at Isstvan III, he'd either purge his whole Legion, or purge the least of any other Legion.

 

It's almost like the Word Bearers. The Emperor was their God. Lorgar wanted them to betray their God. And they did, easily. The Wolves could be no different or they could be the exact opposite. Their personalities and portrayals allow for both possibilities equally.

It's not that I have a particular thing for dogs/wolves, its just I can't help but greatly admire their commitment and how reckless they look when bounding forwards to bite some poor aforementioned a*se. 

 

>> 

 

It's a good question. Personally I think it was something that was already present, since we can assume that before the Primarchs were reunited with their Legions all Astartes would have had fanatical loyalty to the Emperor. Given the environment Russ was raised I think it's fair to say that he would only reinforce the emphasis on loyalty, especially since his other defining trait would be his honour. After being smacked down by the Emperor, he'd given his word that he would submit and with any honourable man their given word is as important to them as their life itself/

 

It's implied that the Fenryka were used to sanction legions and that raises another question, were they used because of their loyalty? or did this merely reinforce what was already present

 

I should also probably add that I love what Dan Abnett did with them in Prospero burns, they're certainly one of the more interesting Legions now they've shrugged off the old Vikings in Space tag. Fingers crossed this continues for the rest of the series because I'd hate to see someone not do them further justice

 

Not being able to shake that Vikings tag is exactly my problem; I'll be re-reading the book this week but where does Abnett discredit such tag as you say? I thought he reinforced their "natural" or traditional (remember by memory) way of life that I connect with Vikings (wrongly?).  

lockquote>

 

Sorry I didn't explain that very well. What I meant to say was Dan Abnett added a further dimension to them. Ever since I got into the game in 2nd Ed, The Space Wolves have always had a generic Vikings tag. Which isn't bad as far as it goes, if the Legions have to be based on cultures the least they could do is pick interesting ones. My only gripe was that seemed to be the extent of it. There'd be the fighting and drinking ale and fur pelts but that was it. Whereas the real Vikings went a hell of a lot further, which is what we've started to see in more recent material.

 

By introducing the ambiguous possibility that the Wolves are the chosen "get back in line beatstick" of the Emperor (and its still a toss up either way) theres more depth to them which has sparked the question that sort of started this thread, where does their loyalty derive from? 

 

I think the problem is I need to brush up on my knowledge on Vikings. If you have anything on top of your head, what other, more commonly over-looked qualities of the Vikings do the Wolves posses? Or even anything that separates them Viking culture were it thrown into a setting with future pew pew and space Shakespeare and all that grimdarkness that we love. 

 

I suppose you could say the one way they differ would be their discipline. From the information I've read on Vikings etc you'd have warriors fighting the morning of a battle to be named the Jarl's champion, they'd be getting an early morning hello from shield maidens, and in general they were a disorganised mob until a battle arrived at which time they'd literally fall into line. With the Wolves they have the same potential for wild abandon but they hold it back with an insanely tight leash, they know exactly what they're capable of once that leash is slackened or removed altogether and in the broadest sense they fear it, so they maintain their discipline to keep it buried. Almost like the Blood Angels bury the black rage and red thirst really

[Balthamal]

If someone in my Heresy campaign ended up saying "I'm playing loyalist Luna Wolves in the Heresy" I wouldn't cringe the way I would at something like "I'm playing Chaos Warriors but we fight for Karl Franz". I'd think it was awesome and perfectly realistic. 

 

This is just......perfect

[Ratboy1664]

You could argue that the most loyal marines were the marines of the traitor legions who didn't turn, as they gave up every bond of brotherly/squad/fatherly fealty to remain loyal to a distant figure who they had no contact with. Loken, Tarvitz et al were probably the most loyal marines ever.

[Peter the Hermit]

^ But they were disloyal to their primarchs...lulz

 

Kidding aside - yes...

[Kais Klip]

 

'ello 'ello 'ello, 

 

I have a problem. The problem consists of a large space marine force, unpainted but constantly in WIP mode, a tendency towards absolute thinking; try as I might, there are few things in which I allow myself to be a jack-of-all-trades or, as I prefer to refer to it: half-a*sed, and lastly a failure to comprehend the distilled characteristics and ways of each Astartes Legion.

 

The problem is settling on a Legion. That is at least, settling long enough on it as to give me a comfortable window in which to paint the army before longingly returning my gaze to the cupboard filled with Apple-Flavoured Dettol Solution (the bane of grimdark smells, toothbrush heads and paint alike).  

 

After years of playing tau, I decided to clean up my space marines and start an HH army. A long time ago I was a fan of the Alpha Legion, however I decided that the whole subtle, scheming character was not for me and that I was looking for a more blunter practical approach to grimdark warfare. Apart from that, I wouldn't be surprised at myself picking any legion, considering that I will always go loyalist, except for Emperor's Children (because I fail to see them, at their core, as an amplification of your stereotypical vain, prancing swordsmen) and perhaps Thousand Sons (not being a fan of sorcery or scholarly attributes and preferring heart and brawn over mind and... whatever is the domain of Psyk). 

 

Lately, after reading ADB's Betrayer, HH's Betrayal and then scouring for as many tidbits on Heresy World Eaters as I could, I have been as far settled as I ever been in my fondness for the predecessors of World Eaters, the War Hounds. The reason is that the latter's apparent characteristic of aggression and, more importantly, brotherhood striking home with me much deeper than hotter fury of the former. The problem is the small nagging voice that these two apparent characteristics are actually prevalent in all of the legions. This combining with ADB's remarks in Missing primarchs : A simpler than expected answer ?  leads me to believe that the Space Wolves/Rout may actually contain more of a brotherly, characteristic than either WEa or WHs. 

 

Considering that, may I ask of you lads and lasses to temporarily dispose of any rightful understanding of our Legions as complicated, multi-faceted, human-perfections-and-flaws-magnified beasts, and for just a moment, dilute them into, at best, a handful of words, so that I may see each through others' biases and understandings. If my suspicions are correct and the attribute of brotherhood and aggression is resplendent almost equally in all of the Legions, then what is the logical follow-up characteristic to search for, or at least  what characterly aspect does each Legion find itself unique from its other 17 counterparts? 

 

Just to offer a sideways perspective, if you prefer (for example) the Luna Wolves or the War Hounds... playing them isn't the unrealistic anti-canon that it might be perceived off the bat. Think of the scale of the Legions, away from the books where we see a few thousand closest to their primarchs. We're talking armies of 100,000+ warriors in a galaxy where the the most reliable way to get from one world to another is to fly for months/years/decades through a time-distorting underworld roughly equivalent to the Hell of human myth. Every warp jump will see several ships arrive late or early (by any number of days, months or years), or simply not at all - perhaps never to be heard from again. These aren't exceptions or rare "mishaps". It's just life in the setting.

 

Even among those who never fall foul of the Warp - and those that prosecute the Great Crusade perfectly normally as part of their Legion - you'll have entire battalions, companies, Chapters, hosts and hordes of a Legion that have never even met their primarch. That won't be particularly unusual in many Legions; after all, the Christian crusaders never needed to meet Jesus or the Pope to fight in the Crusades. There's a lot of nuance at play, here. Admittedly, the books haven't done a great job of showing it all the time - especially the early novels when the Legion numbers were wrong, and ten times too small - but I suspect we'll see more of it as time passes. That's not a spoiler, just a hunch. I know for my part I've always done my best to scatter the Legions I've dealt with almost from the first moment I touched them. These guys need to be scattered across the galaxy, after all, not all flying around with their primarchs. So the Word Bearers in The First Heretic are plainly everywhere in the galaxy, and the main characters don't see Lorgar's main fleet for 40 years; most of the World Eaters and Word Bearers in Betrayer are scattered throughout an entire Segmentum in many fleets that have nothing to do with each other; the Night Lords completely scatter once they lose the Thramas Crusade in Prince of Crows, and so on.

 

Added to that, you'll have entire subfactions in the Legions with their own attitudes, cultures, iconography, colours, and traditions. All ostensibly loyal to an ideal, but... well, the shades of grey in morality and necessity are what make the Warhammer 40,000 universe such a compelling one.

 

If someone in my Heresy campaign ended up saying "I'm playing loyalist Luna Wolves in the Heresy" I wouldn't cringe the way I would at something like "I'm playing Chaos Warriors but we fight for Karl Franz". I'd think it was awesome and perfectly realistic. 

 

I always realized the scope and the massive void between extremes of the setting, and I was never blind to the fact that the Legions of the heresy-era represent more of a human-soldierly than we give credit for (I particularly admired how Dan Abnett wrote the Ultramarine's rapport between themselves as not too dissimilar to that of the Army troopers in Know No Fear).

 

However I do have to admit I never noticed such a distance between opinions within a legion as you're implying. You can be sure i'll be more attentive to that from now on. 

 

Is it planned to revise/nudge the legion numbers to apparent 100,000s levels that Ultramarines are so revered for? While I accept the extreme variance of viewpoints that even a small roomfull of individuals may hold, I believe I have seen a 100,000 or more people and I struggle to imagine that just such a variance of viewpoints can coalesce into "averages" of opinions that still allow incredible brotherly coherence as remarked upon by the Custodains while allowing each... Batallion perhaps, to be unique for its viewpoint as you are suggesting. Provided it isn't wrong to believe one can rightfully water down such a thing as opinion in this case.

 

Between each of the legions? Sure. But between Battalions or even Chapters? Perhaps it's ignorance or perhaps not, but I cannot imagine viewpoints on the shade of colour an apple should be, shall we say, within the smaller legions growing to encompass more than one without thoughts of censure and cases of "I think your armour took a shade of purple and gold for a moment, Iron Warrior." They are there, but they are fleeting and no legionaire would put his life down for it (Until Istvaan III came along).

 

Perhaps a revision such as you imply might help me out. Maybe I have carried over my preconception of M41 Hypnoconditioning forcibly-discarding extremes of opinion human groups might hold, molding any central Legion beliefs as we are pointing out into chunks of variance that would never endanger legion coherency. Am I wrong to assume such restrictions to be in place in the heresy-era? 

 

Where human soldiers in just a single regiment might debate what colour the kitchen wall should be painted in the entire spectrum (red, blue, green etc), the astartes in a legion would be happy in the end since they were merely debating which shade of green should be chosen to paint that wall, while another legion was standing for shades of red etc. Like a couple in a new household; one might want this colour one might want that, but in the end they are happy with the result and not too disconcerting, whereas there are always instances of criminal intent within Army groups just due to differing opinion. 

 

My point, and many blessings upon any who managed to get through it relatively mentally intact, is that, much like what I admire about your writing, I've grown to being dependent on a grimy/less-than-perfect setting that anchors the authenticity of the setting. I'm not saying I'm a pessimist but I have grown to expect a cost for everything, and I only break my immersion if I do not rise up to pay that cost.

 

I really want to avoid what is perfectly within every hobbyist's right and is infact encouraged by the hobby (the first primary intent with putting 2 unknown legions etc) and end up creating a force that's Goldilocks perfect for me; they're ferocious but also compassionate, they're loyal but practical like the alpha legion etc. Rather, I want to pick my side of opinion, my side of character that I most but not completely agree with  and mould around the imperfections of that choice; as always being drilled in, while the legions represent many positive attributes of mankind they must run a cost for all that benefit; they must have negative reflections as well. I was willing to stand behind World Eaters and say I admire their brotherhood and for that I am prepared to put up with their suicidally reckless tendencies, or I'm willing to play wolves for their loyalty and accept that perhaps only Vikings can reach heights of loyalty that I am apparently looking for. 

 

Kais Klip  - Did you watch the new Viking serie on history channel? IMHO  9/10....

 

Looks like I'll have to check it out. 

 

EDIT: Just some clarification for my rambling: I would not expect massive differing opinions on critical issues within a legion; while the legions might differ to one another in terms of such viewpoints, resulting in rivalry etc, relative opinion coherency on any issues not trivial would be maintained. That is until the heresy came along and political in-fighting escalated to comitited fighting (the warbands splitting up, Falk bombarding friendlies in Angel Exterminatus etc). The Cause and the Emperor/Primarchs might be act as a glue strong enough to hold a variety of a handful of opinions within a legion, opinions based on their characteristics which we are establishing, however I cannot image a significant White Scar movement towards the abolition of mounted warfare surviving intact once it gains attention of the higher ups. Thus I cannot allow myself, for all its losses, to play a special goldfish White Scar company that in no way what so ever embraces mounted warfare but doggedly commits to Perturabo's teachings of entrenched warfare even when other courses of action are more viable. My opinion is open, I am merely playing the devil's advocate and throwing about extremes here. Would such a thing be permitted in the setting? 

 

Galaxy will be edited: Just incase any second Cormac's belief that I assume legions to be in the 10,000s range, I want to clarify that while its late and the correct numbers escape me, I am assuming no less than 55,000 to a maximum ceiling of 150,000 legionaires per legion, respectively (from Raven Guard to pre-Ultramar-burns Ultramarines. I've went over my post but due to the storm of edits that I committed, I might have made an oopsie with a 0. 

[Wade Garrett]

If you still want opinions on Legions, I'd like to take a moment to discuss my personal favorites...the XVII.

 

"No compromise. Even in the face of Armageddon."

 

The truth. That was always what we valued. The truth of the Emperor, of his nature. Call it what you will, a power supreme to all others, that overturns the galaxy itself by its own will...what else can it be named, save divine?

 

And we were lied to. Cast down! The very object of our devotion told of us we were wrong. How easy, oh, how easy to accept it as a truth, the truth, to walk the path of the angels, the ravens, the wolves...but no. Truth that cannot stand the test is no truth at all. So we searched, and so we found what we sought.

 

The truth. Vile. Unrepentant. And yet, the truth.

 

Better that. Better a loathsome truth than a honied lie. Better wisdom than foolishness.

 

And now we come, to teach you our truth. In ignorance you fear it. That is no sin. We were the same, once. But willful blindness? To deny what is in favor of what you wish was so, to seek to wrap a whole species in the lie?

 

THAT is heresy. THAT is wickedness. For THAT...no mercy. No hope. Only war..and the wrath of revealed gods.