1st time DIY Chapter noob, help needed.

[WolfPriestBob]

So, this is my first attempt to create a DIY chapter. I appreciate any feedback given.

 

My hope is to create a themed, well thought out chapter that fits well into established 40k cannon. I have read  several other contributors IA articles and I have chosen the following criteria for my chapter;

 

1).  I want my chapter to have a higher degree of sensibility, meaning I don't want to try to "out-fluff" established chapters. I have seen some (not all) IA articles where the author seems to want to make his/her chapter to be "more significant" than established chapters including 1st founding chapters..  more accolades, more achievements, more victories etc..  I think if a chapter was THAT important, it would have its own codex lol.

 

2).  I want my chapter to have a strong Greco-Roman flavoring without loosing its core Space Marine identity.

 

3).  I want my chapter to be an Ultramarines successor, Codex adherent with possibly some minor deviations.

 

My first order of business is deciding on a good, thematic name for the chapter that is not too trite.  Currently, I am considering calling my chapter "Sons of Lochos".   Why Lochos you may ask?  Here is some background on its significance;

 

  *  a "Lochos" was a military formation used primarily in Ancient Greece, and favored by the Spartans. It consisted of approximately 640 soldiers, broken down into 4 units of 160, and further broken into units of 40.

  *  I am thinking that perhaps this chapter will be a "new" chapter, not yet up to full strength, but for reasons of need, was deployed early (maybe only 640 strong at initial deployment?)

  *  Lochos can be symbolized by the Greek Lambda, which is the center-piece of the chapters iconography. (see below)

 

Here are some images that I have developed showing the chapters colors, paint scheme and a first mock-up of a painted marine.

 

http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r710/Steelerfan2k6/DSCN1499_zps6e40aeef.jpg

http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r710/Steelerfan2k6/DSCN1498_zpsca536ce6.jpg

 

http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r710/Steelerfan2k6/SonsofLochos_zps2ba674b8.jpg

 

 

What do you think?  Does the name fit?  Does it invoke the imagination, or does it sound corny?  What doe you think of the initial background ideas?   ANY useful feedback would be GREATLY appreciated.

[Conn Eremon]

I like the name, though Lochos already features prominently in canon as an aspect of the former Iron Warriors' homeworld.

 

As for your ideas, it sounds like you want a very typical, Codex adhering Chapter with strong traditional ties to the Ultramarines.

 

Actually, sounds a lot like the canon Genesis Chapter, whose iconography also happens to include a lambda.

 

Which doesn't invalidate your ideas, I'm just throwing it out there. You could go as a Genesis Chapter successor, perhaps from the most recent founding, that essentially retains the mindset of their progenitors instead of diverging off. A Genesis Chapter 2.0, if you will.

 

Conventional wisdom would dictate that you find something to differentiate your Chapter from others beyond a new color scheme and iconography, though.

[WolfPriestBob]

Thanks for that feedback!  I was unaware that Lochos had an existing canonical relationship.. I will have to research that and give it consideration. :(

 

I am also intrigued about your suggestion regarding a Genesis Chapter successor.  At this early stage, its very helpful to have others give insights that had not occurred to me. Thank you.

[CantonWC]

Hello

 

 

1).  I want my chapter to have a higher degree of sensibility, meaning I don't want to try to "out-fluff" established chapters. I have seen some (not all) IA articles where the author seems to want to make his/her chapter to be "more significant" than established chapters including 1st founding chapters..  more accolades, more achievements, more victories etc..  I think if a chapter was THAT important, it would have its own codex lol.

 

Thank you for recognizing this. I have seen too many Chapters already that want to be "special/unique." Unfortunately, special/unique tends to translate to "My Chapter is better than everyone else." Maybe they don't mean it like that, but it's still incredibly irritating to read.

 

Just take your own advice and try to be sensible about what you write.

 

Don't claim your Chapter fought a Hive Fleet by themselves and won.

 

Don't claim your Chapter smacked around Abaddon and stole his sword.

 

Don't claim some sort of "prophecy" that your Chapter are the "Chosen Ones" that will save the Imperium and bring the Emperor back from the dead.

 

Don't claim that your Chapter Master once made a Daemon Primarch his ***** and carved his name into his chest. Oh wait..

 

 

It's perfectly possible to have a Chapter that is kickass, interesting, and most important, makes the reader interested and invested in the Chapter and make them want to learn more. But always be mindful of other writers since our Chapters live together in a shared universe. If the reader starts asking you "How come this Chapter has never been written about in official lore because of all this stuff they did," that's a good sign you need to step back a bit and reexamine what you wrote. "Interesting" does not necessarily equal "awesome."

 

 

2).  I want my chapter to have a strong Greco-Roman flavoring without loosing its core Space Marine identity.

 

3).  I want my chapter to be an Ultramarines successor, Codex adherent with possibly some minor deviations.

 

Kind of basic, but whatever you want.

 

One thing I would advise you is to avoid committing the sin of what I call "Culture Marines." Meaning, you take a blank Space Marine template and slap a culture on it and call it a day.

 

Like for example the Samurai Chapters that occasionally pop up from time to time. They are typically called the Burning Suns or the Rising Suns, they have the katanas and the funny helmets, they live on the planet Nippon, their Chapter Master is Tokugawa and the other Captains are all warlords from the Sengoku era, they play Go and compose poetry in their spare time, they commit hara kiri when they are dishonored. And so on and so on. It's just predictable, and lazy.

 

Be... adventurous. Not "original," because there's maybe five or six basic plots in all of literature, and the prototype for Romeo and Juliet is probably scratched on a cave wall somewhere. But take something that's been said and make it yours. Say it as though no one's ever it said it before. I know that's terribly vague, but I'm not sure how else to explain it. Good storytelling and writing is something that comes to you after a while I guess. It's not necessarily something that can be taught.

 

-----

 

My other advice is to do the research. Learn the old Greek/Roman myths. Read the Iliad/Odyssey/Aeneid. Take a Greek/Latin course even; I'm considering learning some Latin myself. Take inspiration from the myths, allude to them, but please resist the temptation to plaster Achilles/Hector/Agamemnon everywhere. The Trojan Horse can be a cool allusion, but don't make it a literal wooden horse to trick the Chaos Lord. But a derelict cruiser with your warriors hidden inside might make for a cool anecdote in a side bar.

 

 

My first order of business is deciding on a good, thematic name for the chapter that is not too trite.  Currently, I am considering calling my chapter "Sons of Lochos".   Why Lochos you may ask?  Here is some background on its significance;

 

Don't know anything about Greek, sorry. Sons of Lochos would seem to suggest that they are the Sons of the planet Lochos; or they are the descendants of a great hero named Lochos. Like Sons of Orar.

 

Hope that helps

[WolfPriestBob]

@CantonWC;

 

That's some great feedback, thank you.  I whole-heartedly agree about the tendency of authors to want to bolster their chapters appeal by over-elevating the intensity of achievement and/or significance. Even among the Primogenitor chapters, the most sensational chapters are not necessarily the most appealing. Sure, everyone loves a good Space Wolf story.., but I find many of the lesser known 1st or 2nd founding (or later) chapters to capture my imagination.

 

Regarding the "Culture Marine" schtick, I agree. I don't want to say "these are my Greek Marines". I want my chapter to be "seasoned" with Greco-Roman influences  (such as naming conventions, iconography and perhaps some distinctive tweaks to the appearance of SOME armor or equipment) but the key is to have a degree of subtlety.

 

Lastly, I really identify with your last suggestion regarding the tie-in of "Lochos" to the chapter.  Originally, I was going to have Lochos be their homeworld, but your suggestion of descending from a great hero named Lochos has more appeal. Perhaps he can be a hero of the Genesis chapter from whom the gene seed was used as the foundation of the chapter.

[WolfPriestBob]

Does anyone know of, or can point me in a direction to get more information specific to the Genesis Chapter? I have read the few/short wiki articles and the few scarce anecdotes in a few 40k references, but nothing of any real substance.

 

Also, while staying within the bounds of sensibility, what sort of deeds would/could a Space Marine hero perform that would make him worthy of becoming the genetic template for a whole Chapter Founding?  Please keep it plausible, and feasible. I am thinking hero, but not Robouete Guilliman himself lol.

[Lysimachus]

Sound good so far, and I like the scheme. That said I find the shoulder pad colours a little odd? I'd probably reverse the right pad to white with blue trim to maintain the symmetry of the scheme?

Perhaps he can be a hero of the Genesis chapter from whom the gene seed was used as the foundation of the chapter.

The only thing you have to be careful of here is that they don't really know whose geneseed is used for a new Chapter. Each Chapter sends a tithe of geneseed to the AdMech for testing and storage. From these tithes, samples are taken and the purest and best are replicated over and over until there are enough to create a new Chapter. Then a Chapter (we assume of the same generic lineage) is assigned to train/lead the new force. Hence there isn't any way to be sure if your hero's geneseed was used.

You could say that the parent Chapter submitted the hero's seed as part of their tithe, and then when they were ordered to provide a training cadre they assumed his geneseed must have been chosen...

Alternatively, you could make it less about the literal geneseed and more about being 'spiritual' sons, imitators of the hero's battle skills, fine qualities, strengths, etc, etc.

Edit: Actually, you could even say that when the Chapter Master of the new Chapter was a humble tactical Marine, Lochos led/saved/mentored him. Now he is a Captain/Chapter Master - a hero in his own right - but sees an opportunity to honour his former mentor in the naming of his Chapter?



The other way to go with a 'Sons of...' Chapter is to make it the founding Chapter Master's name as it's obvious who he is. The only problem with that to my mind is that the CM comes across as a bit of an egotistical ass for naming a whole Chapter after himself, but hey, it could still work!

[Conn Eremon]

He wouldn't be the genetic template. The starting gene-seed is all coming from Martian storage. But, newborn Chapters have training cadres forwarded from parent chapters, acting as the initial officer core. I'd say make the training cadre be from the Genesis Chapter, with Lochos being the forwarded hero acting as the first Chapter Master. Though I agree with Lysimachus that it makes him sound rather egotistical and you can make Lochos a historical figure of whom the newborn Chapter looks to for inspiration and guidance instead.

 

As for what he's done to deserve the honor, I don't know. In my mind, founding heroes should be automatic and obvious choices for the role of Chapter Master in their original Chapter but unable to take on the role. They're too divergent from the Chapter and isn't acceptable or the current Chapter Master is still kicking and going strong or a new Chapter Master is needed but there's more than one choice available. And this all happens when a Founding is taking place and so the warrior of thwarted ambitions is chosen to lead his own fledgling Chapter. Really, just make up a list of victories, accolades, varied enough in flavor to show that he's a well-rounded, inspired leader. You can avoid making him sound like the best of the best by making it up entirely. Its when you include canon events, like Armageddon, that people start wondering how come they've never heard of you.

 

But I think in Lochos' case, it'd be because he's the safe choice. Heroic, sure, but not very divergent. Very conservative, traditional, if he's going to make the Sons a Chapter-sized extension of the Genesis Chapter, themselves a Chapter-sized extension of the Ultramarines. As for where to find information related to the Genesis Chapter, they're not particularly well-fleshed out. C:SM mentions it here and there, and I think A D-B wrote of them in his Night Lords book.

 

As for the Greek and Roman influences, making them sound and look Ultramarine-like should make it just fine. They're already pretty inspired by such themes and it sounds like you're going for a Ultramarine Chapter with a new name and paint scheme. Not insulting, I just haven't seen anything yet to differentiate the two.

[Gripharius]

You might consider the Chapter have a generic name at its founding, then have them rename themsevles for their first Chapter Master after he falls heroically in battle.  They may start off as the Blue Talons and then rename themselves the Sons of Lochos.

 

Also, some links on the Genesis Chapter (not necessary great info, but its a start):

 

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Genesis_Chapter

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Genesis_Chapter

 

http://genesis40k.blogspot.com/2010/06/genesis-chapter-introduction.html

 

http://genesis40k.blogspot.com/2011/11/genesis-chapter-more-fluff.html

[Demus Ragnok]

For my "sons of"chapter Ive been using the idea that the chapter namesake was a legion veteran during the heresy. Centuries later the training cadre for the new chapter find records of the long dead legionnaires deeds and take his name for the chapter believing him to be an exemplar of what the chapter should be. Overtime the chapter comes to believe that they are the recipients of their namesakes geneseed and venerate him equally with the primarch and the Emperor. Wether or not the chapter can be linked to the hero's geneseed or not is questionable but its what the chapter has come to believe. And belief is a powerful thing, at least in my opinion it is.

[Wade Garrett]

Isn't that the same color scheme the Marines Errant Chapter uses?

[Firepower]

Marines Errant are halved, not quartered...I think.  Nicely painted model, by the by. :tu:

 

I'll pop back in with something a bit more useful to say when I get the time :teehee:

[Conn Eremon]

Firepower is right. And its not quite the same shade of blue. Though they certainly look very similar, he's already painted a model in his chosen colors. I for one think it looks good enough to not suggest he change it.

[WolfPriestBob]

@Gripharius

 

  Thanks for those resource links. All help is good help :)

 

@Firepower

 

  Thanks for the thumbs up!

 

@Demus Ragnok

 

  Thanks for the feedback. I see the appeal of your idea. A shared belief can indeed be a very powerful tool in shaping a chapters core values. If I am not mistaken however,(and I very well may be), Chapters or their trainers do not name themselves. Instead, I believe it is the High Lords of Terra who "bestow" a chapter name. Can a chapter "petition" the High Lords of Terra to change their designation?  If so, what are grounds sufficient for such a change?

 

@Wade Garrett

 

  Its actually closer to an inverse of the Nova Marines, with some distinct differences.

 

@Strike Captain Lysimachus & Cormac Airt

 

  Great feedback gentlemen. Thanks for taking the time. With regards to taking a hero as a "spiritual exemplar" for the chapter..(please forgive me for the pushback, but I love a good discussion lol), If a chapter were to take an individual as a model of the spiritual ideal of the chapters beliefs, wouldn't that naturally fall to Roboute Gilliman? I mean, what hero could compare to a Primarch as an example of the Chapters ideals?  What would make a hero worthy of emulation over the primarch himself?

 

I think you have both raised ideas that I need to be very careful in considering. As a "living" example or hero of the chapter (perhaps as the current chapter master as Lysimachus mentioned), Lochos would give the chapter a more cinematic quality. It also makes him 'smaller" in some way. As an idea (such as a historical hero) Lochos would be "incorruptible" but would not be a resource to actively shape the chapter.

[Conn Eremon]

A hero doesn't have to outshine Guilliman in order for him to be taken as a symbol, a legacy. There are the Sons of Guilliman already, but there are tons of other Sons of _____ Chapters out there and I'm not just speaking of DIYs. Though I feel it's the Imperial Fists that are most about individual champions, the Ultramarine successors are heavily into this as well. The Sons of Orar, for instance, revere a post-Heresy Captain of the former Ultramarines Legion, Orar.  And they are known as a Codex Chapter, so they don't deviate from Guilliman's teachings. Taking that hero's legacy as a founding basis doesn't mean that he is greater than the Primarch or more worthy than the Primarch. It could, in fact, mean the exact opposite. The Sons of Orar, for instance, may very well revere Orar specifically because he represented the ideal son of Guilliman or that his focus upon certain aspects of their Primarch ring particularly clear for the Chapter. Perhaps it's some heroic deed this Captain did following the Heresy, supporting the works of their Primarch or exacting vengeance upon those who would destroy it. Perhaps this Captain codified his own additions to the Codex, as countless leaders have since it was first penned, and the Chapter looks upon it as a sacred relic.

 

Lochos, therefore, has countless possibilities in how he may become a spiritual predecessor to this new Chapter, without any need to belittle their Primarch in the action. He could be what the Chapter sees as the last son of Guilliman and the Legion, seeing the inevitable changes that have happened over the millennia as a distancing from their Primarch's original vision. He could have committed some deed of legend that resonates with the Chapter, something that was part of the original Legion in the days of their Primarch but has since fallen on the sidelines. Such as that of the conquering hero. Perhaps the sector of space that the Sons are placed and/or have chosen as theirs is one pacified by this Lochos. He's the hero who brought these worlds into the Imperium in the first place. In the olden days, such a hero would have been made commander of these worlds and granted independence and rank equal to that of other commanders, as Guilliman himself had once done before the Emperor's coming and within whose footsteps mighty Legion heroes of those heady days walked as well. If he is the actual first Chapter Master, maybe that's exactly what happened. In honor of his victory, with the Founding being under way and the Chapter chosen to supply a training cadre, Lochos will be chosen to lead this new Chapter, who take these conquered worlds as their own. If he is some distant hero, perhaps the young Sons are tasked with this sector of space as their home base. In honor of the hero who had conquered these worlds in ages past, perhaps as a means to ingratiate themselves with the peoples of these worlds who may see this figure as a liberator saint or perhaps because he epitomizes their ideas of a true son of Guilliman, they name themselves the Sons of Lochos. 

 

But this is just us spitballing ideas. You could always just go with a Lochos homeworld, or Sector/Sub-Sector. Your choice.

[Lysimachus]

A hero doesn't have to outshine Guilliman in order for him to be taken as a symbol, a legacy. There are the Sons of Guilliman already, but there are tons of other Sons of _____ Chapters out there and I'm not just speaking of DIYs. Though I feel it's the Imperial Fists that are most about individual champions, the Ultramarine successors are heavily into this as well. The Sons of Orar, for instance, revere a post-Heresy Captain of the former Ultramarines Legion, Orar. And they are known as a Codex Chapter, so they don't deviate from Guilliman's teachings. Taking that hero's legacy as a founding basis doesn't mean that he is greater than the Primarch or more worthy than the Primarch. It could, in fact, mean the exact opposite. The Sons of Orar, for instance, may very well revere Orar specifically because he represented the ideal son of Guilliman or that his focus upon certain aspects of their Primarch ring particularly clear for the Chapter. Perhaps it's some heroic deed this Captain did following the Heresy, supporting the works of their Primarch or exacting vengeance upon those who would destroy it. Perhaps this Captain codified his own additions to the Codex, as countless leaders have since it was first penned, and the Chapter looks upon it as a sacred relic.

What he said!

[Conn Eremon]

As for Chapter names, they haven't actually pinned down who does what or when. Fluff seems to support both popular ideas, that it is chosen for them by the powers that be or that it is chosen by them during their formative years.

[Firepower]

Next to Orar, you also have Aquila of the Doom Eagles. The Codex Astartes doesn't preach veneration for Guilliman, but rather serves a a comprehensive guide to war. The fact that the Codex has been steadily added to is an example of how individuals can contribute and serve as venerable figures, without overshadowing or trumping Guilliman himself. Aquila, for instance, created a philosophy of pragmatic fatalism that shaped the spirit of the Chapter, but the Codex Astartes still shapes the function of the Chapter, thus keeping Guilliman on his appropriate pedestal as an Ultramarines successor.

You have Socrates, who creates the foundation of post Sophist philosophy. You have Plato, who takes it a step further and adds Idealism. You then have Aristotle who expands it even further into a categorization and codification of the world and cosmos. Plato and Aristotle would be the foundation of schools of thought later on, but Socrates retained his Primarch like status.

I could have just said Cormac got it right, but I wanted to look smart too

[WolfPriestBob]

@ Cormac Airt and Lysimachus

 

Great input, I appreciate you guys taking the time to bounce ideas. I think I have set my mind upon having Lochos be a "Spiritual Exemplar" that the chapter has taken to hold as the ideal expression of how a Space Marine should observe and epitomize the teachings of Roboute Gilliman. I am still working the details but I think he will be a descendent of the Genesis Chapter.

 

I think I have zeroed in on the 24th founding (M39) as the point of inception. 2 thousand years seems to be long enough for a chapter to achieve a modest modicum of distinction.

 

As a change of discussion, Do you guys think it would be feasible for a fledgling chapter to have performed some deed of distinction that a/the parent chapter (maybe the ultramarines themselves) would honor them with a gift of 5 suits of Cataphracti Terminator Armor? I REALLY like the models and want to incorporate them into my chapter, to be worn by the Chapter Master and his 4 man Honor Guard. Since most chapters treasure their suits of terminator armor as holy relics (even the more mundane modern variants are sacrosanct) it seems very implausible that such a new chapter would have any of these ancient and sacred relics of the Imperium. (But I REALLY, REALLY want them lol).

 

This leads me to another question. I have read somewhere that the imperium has lost the technology necessary to forge new suits of Terminator Armor and that it is only able to basically refurbish existing suits or armor. Before the heresy, each chapter was a Legion of approximately 10,000 marines (give or take). If we follow common convention that only about 10% of each legion was able to field terminator armor, and given that there were 9 surviving loyal chapters (we will ignore the fact that at least 1 or 2 of those chapters had their entire first company (terminators) annihilated at Istivan, then there were only about 9000 surviving suits of terminator armor. Given that each successor chapter could field an entire company of 100 terminators, then there were only enough suits of armor to supply 90 chapters with sufficient resources.  That is FAR short of the estimated 1000 chapters suspected to be in existence. HOW is the need for additional suits of armor met? What about attrition? It must be that there are still SOME forgeworlds throughout the Imperium that are still capable of manufacturing Terminator Armor.

[Firepower]

For the Cataphracti suits, off the top of my head, it might work if the first Chapter Master and leader of the new successor's training cadre was a particularly venerable hero of the Ultramarines. Especially if he was already leading a squad of 5 Cataphracti (which would be a super mega honor) as an Ultramarine. But it would help if the Ultramarines worked in concert with their successor for a while in its youth, and decided by request of the hero and by merit of the new Chapter's valor, they were worthy of the 5 relics.

 

Still kinda shaky. I don't know if the First Founding Chapters even still use their Cataphracti or if they're in cold storage as revered artifacts, or if they even have enough to spare 5 (they certainly wouldn't give away all they had to anyone).

[Conn Eremon]

A squad of Terminators fight alongside the Sons of Lochos during a Crusade. In a surprise assault, the enemy Warlord and his elite retinue single the Terminator squad out. Though they fight valiantly, they're overwhelmed by the press of numbers and the ferocious skill of the warlord. As their brothers fall, one by one, the remainder consign themselves to a glorious death. Then the Sons arrive in force. They burst through to the embattled squad and the taskforce's leader, with the terminator sergeant, slays the enemy warlord. The enemy is crushed and the Imperium is victorious. In honor of their bravery and sacrifices to save their veterans, the older Chapter gifts them with the five refurbished suits worn by those who fell, sealing a pact of martial brotherhood between them.

 

You know, as an example.

[WolfPriestBob]

@ Cormac Airt & Firepower

 

Thanks for those insights. I know its probably stretching the lines of sensibility, but I feel that I can allow myself one indulgence as a writer to gift my chapter with such a symbolic icon of the chapter's gene heritage :) I am sure it will take some tug and pull, but hopefully I can do justice to these relics an create a backstory that both justifies and pays proper homage to such extravagance.

 

 

As a new writer, without a large following (or any following really lol), I feel it is necessary to begin my IA article with something that captures and holds a readers interest rather quickly. To this end, I am considering starting off my article with a brief tale that establishes who Lochos was and how he was significant to my chapter (what made him heroic and worthy of such lofty reverence). To this point, I am debating within myself as to whether I should recant a tale of some significant event that Lochos featured in, or whether I should give a more objective account of who/what he was (sort of like a very brief biography).  What do you guys think?

[Conn Eremon]

If Lochos of the Sons of Lochos is a person, his legends should feature prominently in the Origins and Beliefs sections, though the former should definitely include a bit detailing the Chapter's legacy without Lochos.

 

As for how you'd like to portray it, that depends on who is writing it. Most, if not all, of GW's IAs are written from the viewpoint of an in-universe narrator with extensive knowledge. Is he a scholar, writing a treatise on the Chapter using established works? A more objective narrative works. Is it from the viewpoint of the Chapter itself? Be less objective, for they're speaking of their own legends and beliefs. Personally, I prefer the latter for my own DIYs and the former for writing the as yet unfinished Guilliman Heresy IAs. The narrator isn't an actual character, mind you. Just a description for the tone and manner the piece is written in.

[Lysimachus]

 

This leads me to another question. I have read somewhere that the imperium has lost the technology necessary to forge new suits of Terminator Armor and that it is only able to basically refurbish existing suits or armor. Before the heresy, each chapter was a Legion of approximately 10,000 marines (give or take). If we follow common convention that only about 10% of each legion was able to field terminator armor, and given that there were 9 surviving loyal chapters (we will ignore the fact that at least 1 or 2 of those chapters had their entire first company (terminators) annihilated at Istivan, then there were only about 9000 surviving suits of terminator armor. Given that each successor chapter could field an entire company of 100 terminators, then there were only enough suits of armor to supply 90 chapters with sufficient resources.  That is FAR short of the estimated 1000 chapters suspected to be in existence. HOW is the need for additional suits of armor met? What about attrition? It must be that there are still SOME forgeworlds throughout the Imperium that are still capable of manufacturing Terminator Armor.

 

I'm surprised no-one's mentioned this but the fluff has changed quite a bit regarding the size of the 30k Legions since the HH series of books started. Now it is about 100,000 Marines per Legion, with around 250,000 for the Ultramarines. (Numbers of Chapters formed in the Second Founding has also gone up to around 400 according to C:GK). If you keep the 10% for TDA, it means there's quite a bit more to go around. However, I do have a feeling that fluff says somewhere that there are still Forge Worlds producing TDA, it's just extremely slowly.

[CantonWC]

Lastly, I really identify with your last suggestion regarding the tie-in of "Lochos" to the chapter. Originally, I was going to have Lochos be their homeworld, but your suggestion of descending from a great hero named Lochos has more appeal. Perhaps he can be a hero of the Genesis chapter from whom the gene seed was used as the foundation of the chapter.

Sure, if you want.

 

Now as I recall you said that "lochos" is a word referring to a military formation. So is this man a literal one man army?

 

Not that that's a bad thing, or indicative of a Marty Stu character. We have many real life instances of people becoming one man armies in desperate circumstances. And every Space Marine is by definition a one man army.

 

I'm basically just a fan of making sure my characters get meaningful names.

Does anyone know of, or can point me in a direction to get more information specific to the Genesis Chapter? I have read the few/short wiki articles and the few scarce anecdotes in a few 40k references, but nothing of any real substance.

There appears to be very little information on the Genesis Chapter. They show up briefly in Void Stalker. TBH my overall impression of them is not particularly favorable given the scant information we have.

The only thing you have to be careful of here is that they don't really know whose geneseed is used for a new Chapter. Each Chapter sends a tithe of geneseed to the AdMech for testing and storage. From these tithes, samples are taken and the purest and best are replicated over and over until there are enough to create a new Chapter. Then a Chapter (we assume of the same generic lineage) is assigned to train/lead the new force. Hence there isn't any way to be sure if your hero's geneseed was used.

Are you sure about this Lysimachus?

Edit: Actually, you could even say that when the Chapter Master of the new Chapter was a humble tactical Marine, Lochos led/saved/mentored him. Now he is a Captain/Chapter Master - a hero in his own right - but sees an opportunity to honour his former mentor in the naming of his Chapter?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The other way to go with a 'Sons of...' Chapter is to make it the founding Chapter Master's name as it's obvious who he is. The only problem with that to my mind is that the CM comes across as a bit of an egotistical ass for naming a whole Chapter after himself, but hey, it could still work!

My personal choice would be to make Lochos the first Chapter Master. Then after he kicks the bucket the nascent Chapter adopts the unofficial name "Sons of Lochos" because of his legacy and influence. It means TC will have to think up an official name, but it gets around the issue of Lochos appearing to be a pompous ass.

Also, while staying within the bounds of sensibility, what sort of deeds would/could a Space Marine hero perform that would make him worthy of becoming the genetic template for a whole Chapter Founding? Please keep it plausible, and feasible. I am thinking hero, but not Robouete Guilliman himself lol.

I dunno. Now we're talking more about developing a rudimentary biography for this Lochos fellow. So now we can have a Chapter that has both a theme and is character-driven, which is pretty similar to my own project.

 

I guess you should start small. Call Lochos the "Hero of [insert war/battle/campaign]" and sit on that for a while. And while you develop the IA you can let the reader decide for him or herself how much of a raging badass Lochos had to be to earn the title of "Hero."

Thanks for the feedback. I see the appeal of your idea. A shared belief can indeed be a very powerful tool in shaping a chapters core values. If I am not mistaken however,(and I very well may be), Chapters or their trainers do not name themselves. Instead, I believe it is the High Lords of Terra who "bestow" a chapter name. Can a chapter "petition" the High Lords of Terra to change their designation? If so, what are grounds sufficient for such a change?

 

The lore appears to go either way. I think there's at least one instance where the High Lords assigned a name and Chapter colors to a new Chapter when the old one was destroyed. In general most people tend to go with the second choice, where the Chapter names themselves in their formative period.

 

Changing names, in my opinion, can be something of a touchy subject. As far as I'm concerned, a Chapter name is sacred, and changing names is something that cannot be done lightly. I would recommend against it.

Great feedback gentlemen. Thanks for taking the time. With regards to taking a hero as a "spiritual exemplar" for the chapter..(please forgive me for the pushback, but I love a good discussion lol), If a chapter were to take an individual as a model of the spiritual ideal of the chapters beliefs, wouldn't that naturally fall to Roboute Gilliman? I mean, what hero could compare to a Primarch as an example of the Chapters ideals? What would make a hero worthy of emulation over the primarch himself?

I'll just plug my own Chapter as an example.

 

Lord Raziel Scryer was the founder and first Chapter Master of the Dark Swords. He was incredibly devoted to his Chapter and the men under his command, and they likewise felt the same about him. Raziel guided and shaped the Dark Swords Chapter in its early years, informing their beliefs, practices and methods of war. His influence and legacy are so great that the Chapter still essentially lives and conducts itself according to the guidelines that Raziel laid down in the very beginning. So Raziel is like the patron saint of the Chapter.

 

Lord Rogal Dorn is the Primarch of the Dark Swords. He would be like the archangel Michael I guess.

 

The Emperor is of course God, but he wouldn't like to think of himself that way.

 

All three men are revered as a trinity and the foundation of the Chapter cult, but there is a clear hierarchy. Raziel might be prayed to for the little daily stuff, since he is seen as the intermediary between the lowly Chapter and the godlike Emperor and Primarchs, he was the closest to the Chapter and the most invested in them. Maybe the Dark Swords even believe that Raziel watches over and protects them still, even though he's been dead for milennia.

As a change of discussion, Do you guys think it would be feasible for a fledgling chapter to have performed some deed of distinction that a/the parent chapter (maybe the ultramarines themselves) would honor them with a gift of 5 suits of Cataphracti Terminator Armor? I REALLY like the models and want to incorporate them into my chapter, to be worn by the Chapter Master and his 4 man Honor Guard. Since most chapters treasure their suits of terminator armor as holy relics (even the more mundane modern variants are sacrosanct) it seems very implausible that such a new chapter would have any of these ancient and sacred relics of the Imperium. (But I REALLY, REALLY want them lol).

I will agree with you that the Cataphractii suits look pretty rockin'. But it's hard. I think they're supposed to be rarer than normal TDA suits.

 

I guess maybe you could find them. Old tech gets found from time to time, especially perhaps if you stumble across some old Heresy era battlefield.

 

Maybe the local forge world has some locked away in their equivalent of a basement. But you would have to do some pretty epic deeds, maybe a mighty large favor to convince them that you're worthy of bearing the old suits into battle.

 

EDIT: Space hulk diving is also a time honored tradition for finding old tech.

 

This leads me to another question. I have read somewhere that the imperium has lost the technology necessary to forge new suits of Terminator Armor and that it is only able to basically refurbish existing suits or armor.

As far as I understand the Mechanicus still maintains knowledge of the Terminator suits, but rate of production is very slow.

 

Hope this helps