Scouts, scouts, scouts!

[John_f]

So I was toying with the idea of scouts behind an aegis. Imagine 40 scouts with cammo-cloaks, and a dark shround behind an aegis. Add a command squad with dakka-banner in a rhino. Thats 172-ish boltershots behind 2++ cover for around 900 points. Complement with tanks (3++ cover) and I think you got a decent list. Weakneses? Immobile, and will fall to weapons that ignore cover.

 

What do you think?

[IndigoJack]

I think there's already a thread going for this :P http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274645-da-scouts-and-devastation/

[Centurio]

Have a couple of librarians with Divination and power field generatiors hang with them?

[elphilo]

I think there's already a thread going for this http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274645-da-scouts-and-devastation/

This.

Plus a flamer ruins your day. . . .

[John_f]

Sorry, should have search the forum before posting :/

[Brother Amarel]

I think there's already a thread going for this http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274645-da-scouts-and-devastation/

This.

Plus a flamer ruins your day. . . .

And Tau.

[shortysl]

Have a couple of librarians with Divination and power field generatiors hang with them?

Power Field Generators grant models within 3" a 4+ Invulnerable save. Not units, specifically models. I don't think you're going to cover many Scouts with even two Generators, making it a waste of time and points.

[IndigoJack]

I think there's already a thread going for this http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274645-da-scouts-and-devastation/

This.

Plus a flamer ruins your day. . . .

And Tau.

Read the back and forth between Brother Immolator and I about my feelings about tau vs scouts. I'm surprised no one has mentioned the real threat to a scout list: manticores. Those things will hit large areas and rob them of both cover and armor. They can hit you from across the board and if they're real worried, they can hide them altogether since they don't need LoS.

[Master Avoghai]

Scouts?

 

You mean those models with a BS and WS 3 and a 4+ save?

 

When you have to pay only 2 pts/model to make them real space marine? With flamer, meltas, plasma guns, drop pods and various heavy weapons available all usable with a BS3 and who all wear a power armour?

 

I'm still looking for a good reason to replace my tactical (and to some extend, my termis with Belial or my bike with sammy) by scouts.

 

Infiltrate is good but in some situations only. sniper rifles? again it's REALLY situationnal and in a v6 based on saturation, limited number of shoots with BS3 is kinda limitated.

 

Bolters with dakka pole? Come on guys! Comparing with tactical you'll lose 6-7 hits/shooting phase...

 

Camo cloaks are not that good. We have auspex that limit covers, the helldrake does too, and so do the tau. I bet what you want that the eldar will have lots of "xenos advanced technology" that allow us to limit/negate cover save.

 

Scouts are a fun unit, but I wouldn't base my strategy on them

[IndigoJack]

Scouts?

 

You mean those models with a BS and WS 3 and a 4+ save?

 

When you have to pay only 2 pts/model to make them real space marine? With flamer, meltas, plasma guns, drop pods and various heavy weapons available all usable with a BS3 and who all wear a power armour?

 

I'm still looking for a good reason to replace my tactical (and to some extend, my termis with Belial or my bike with sammy) by scouts.

 

Infiltrate is good but in some situations only. sniper rifles? again it's REALLY situationnal and in a v6 based on saturation, limited number of shoots with BS3 is kinda limitated.

 

Bolters with dakka pole? Come on guys! Comparing with tactical you'll lose 6-7 hits/shooting phase...

 

The idea with the dakka banner and scouts is a turn one alpha strike thing (and subject to alpha strike denial shenanigans). You infiltrate or scout move up and move your banner (ideally in an LRC) up to within 12" of the scouts and blast away. BS3 isn't as bad when you're putting out 2-4 times as many shots. Sure, bikes can scout up as well for a similar effect, but you get more firepower from the scouts.

 

Camo cloaks are not that good. We have auspex that limit covers, the helldrake does too, and so do the tau. I bet what you want that the eldar will have lots of "xenos advanced technology" that allow us to limit/negate cover save.

 

Scouts are a fun unit, but I wouldn't base my strategy on them

 

Auspexes aren't that scary. They only work within 12" and you probably aren't going to see more than 2 in a DA army. The heldrake kills scouts just as well as it kills marines. And as for tau, it's like I said in the last thread:  Most tau armies have 2-3 sources of markerlights. Sure, they can strip cover from a few of my scout squads, but that assumes they're going to ignore the rest of my army and find the scouts to be the most threatening thing on the board. Markerlights are a precious resource for tau and they're not going to squander them on every unit that needs it cover save removed. You can't look at the scouts in a vacuum. After spending about 1000 pts for some scouts, an LRC and commander+command squad w/ BoD, you still have the rest of your point allotment to get other things that are going to want to suck up tau markerlights.

 

Like I mentioned above, the biggest threat to this army style is IG. Manticores are fairly common (I've seen at least one in every IG list I've fought against in tournaments) and a lucky roll for missiles can take out a couple squads of scouts as well as threaten the LRC. Additionally, while manticores aren't particularly durable tanks, are difficult to take out turn one since then can hide behind things and indirect fire. Who cares if it scatters when you've got a rather large bubble of scouts around an LRC midfield. You're bound to hit something.

 

Scouts + SoD aren't a bad combo, it's just a combo that relies alpha strike and most intelligent players will know how to mitigate it's damage. IMO, bikes are the best way to run the dakka banner. Their mobility allows them to hit where it really hurts.

[Centurio]

 

Have a couple of librarians with Divination and power field generatiors hang with them?

Power Field Generators grant models within 3" a 4+ Invulnerable save. Not units, specifically models. I don't think you're going to cover many Scouts with even two Generators, making it a waste of time and points.

 

Not that I would ever use the army but IF you are going to pack multiple squads of scouts behind an aegis, you could cover a lot of them with 2 librarians, as each librarian has a 3" radius from his base and can cover a 7" diameter circle.  Since the scouts won't be dispersed much if they are hiding behind the Aegis, you could cover a lot of the scouts and make two squads shoot twin linked boltguns.  They could also fire the quad gun at a higher BS if necessary. Now when a Heldrake flies over and torches the scouts, it will kill half as many.  Not to mention they would be protecting the command squad with the banner as well. 

[elphilo]

Scouts + SoD aren't a bad combo, it's just a combo that relies alpha strike and most intelligent players will know how to mitigate it's damage. IMO, bikes are the best way to run the dakka banner. Their mobility allows them to hit where it really hurts.

I've thought this since that Ravenwing list won that big tournament earlier this year. Damn my memory for not remembering what.

 

The SoD is a great tool, but yes, only the Ravenwing can really take full advantage of it.

[Master Avoghai]

Sure, bikes can scout up as well for a similar effect, but you get more firepower from the scouts.

Well this is partly true... 10 scouts with cloaks and BS3 cost as much as 6 bikes... But when it comes to the number of hits

Scouts : 40 shots -> 20 hits

Bikes : 24 shots -> 21hits

 

So the fire power is really the same. But the bikes have T5 save 3+ move 12" and when you give them a melta, they don't drop their TLbolters.

 

Oh and yeah they have a 5+ cover save too...

 

The heldrake kills scouts just as well as it kills marines

Yup

 

So that's what I'm arguing : before being killed I prefer count on BS3 3+save marines rather than scouts.

[IndigoJack]

Master Avoghai, on 02 May 2013 - 07:09, said:

 

 

Sure, bikes can scout up as well for a similar effect, but you get more firepower from the scouts.

Well this is partly true... 10 scouts with cloaks and BS3 cost as much as 6 bikes... But when it comes to the number of hits

Scouts : 40 shots -> 20 hits

Bikes : 24 shots -> 21hits

 

So the fire power is really the same. But the bikes have T5 save 3+ move 12" and when you give them a melta, they don't drop their TLbolters.

 

Oh and yeah they have a 5+ cover save too...

 

 

Yeah, I really should have done the math before saying that. One thing to consider though is the random nature of dice. The bikes can at most get 24 hits with their boltguns, while the scouts can up to 40. While unreliable, statistical outliers do happen. Scouts w/ cloaks can also go to ground and don't have to take a morale check after losing on 2 models. There's always trade-offs.

 

 

Quote

The heldrake kills scouts just as well as it kills marines

Yup

 

So that's what I'm arguing : before being killed I prefer count on BS3 3+save marines rather than scouts.

 

 

Volume of fire makes up for the BS3. If you don't believe me, ask an IG player how well "first rank fire, second rank fire" works with a blob squad, and lasguns are S3 to boot. What you buy the camo cloaks for is the ability to go to ground for 2+ cover and become faux-terminators. Yes, there are things that will ignore cover but there are far more things that will shoot at you that don't.

[Master Avoghai]

Scouts w/ cloaks can also go to ground and don't have to take a morale check after losing on 2 models. There's always trade-offs.

Yup but I'm still looking for interesting trades-off concerning the scouts. Go to ground is something you'll use one turn in some games and is already a trade-off in its functionning : you go to ground BUT you lose your following shooting phase.

 

 

And btw when I talk about the auspex it was just to underline the fact than more and more, GW introduce cover save modifiers (positive or negative).

This is a funny thing : they explained us in v3 that they got rid of armour save modifiers or roll to shoot modifiers because it made the games unfluid and slow... And they introduce cover saves modifiers..

[IndigoJack]

The trade-off is infiltrate/scout to get the turn one alpha strike with the dakka banner. That's the whole idea of the list. Beyond that, there's no real reason to do this.

 

Units gone to ground don't have to lose their shooting phase. They can fire snap shots. Or you could keep a libby on a bike and have him join units gone to ground to make them fearless and pop back up.

[shortysl]

 

 

Have a couple of librarians with Divination and power field generatiors hang with them?

Power Field Generators grant models within 3" a 4+ Invulnerable save. Not units, specifically models. I don't think you're going to cover many Scouts with even two Generators, making it a waste of time and points.

 

Not that I would ever use the army but IF you are going to pack multiple squads of scouts behind an aegis, you could cover a lot of them with 2 librarians, as each librarian has a 3" radius from his base and can cover a 7" diameter circle.  Since the scouts won't be dispersed much if they are hiding behind the Aegis, you could cover a lot of the scouts and make two squads shoot twin linked boltguns.  They could also fire the quad gun at a higher BS if necessary. Now when a Heldrake flies over and torches the scouts, it will kill half as many.  Not to mention they would be protecting the command squad with the banner as well. 

If you're going to pack them close enough together that you're covering that many models then you're going to die, 4+ Invulnerable or not. This again goes back to the Tactical Marines; You could utilise the same strategy, save 60 points on a pair of Power Field Generators and still use Divination to allow the BS4 Tacticals to re-roll their hits. Being able to get close to the enemy with Scouts using the Standard of Devastation is pointless as Bolters become Salvo weapons when within range of it. A Tactical Marine firing from 20" away fires the same number of shots as a Scout from 10" away, and gets assaulted a turn or two later than the Scout. The Tactical also fights in both phases better than the Scout does. The Standard of Devastation is a firebase item. Why would you want your firebase closer to the enemy?

[Centurio]

Hey, calm down buddy, I was just replying to the OPs post. I don't even use scouts. I have used the banner with tacticals.

[Brother Immolator]

I think there's already a thread going for this http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274645-da-scouts-and-devastation/

This.

Plus a flamer ruins your day. . . .

And Tau.

Read the back and forth between Brother Immolator and I about my feelings about tau vs scouts. I'm surprised no one has mentioned the real threat to a scout list: manticores. Those things will hit large areas and rob them of both cover and armor. They can hit you from across the board and if they're real worried, they can hide them altogether since they don't need LoS.

Apparently I had completely erased my experiences with guard from my mind. I have come to believe that each time that a guard player against a marine player fields an executioner the powers that be kill a kitten. That now must expand to include fluffy bunnies if using manticores against scout armies .

Also I dont remember if I mentioned in the other thread but nobody wants to run with a scout army against noice marines. Ever.

EDIT: Plus somebody merge those two threads already!

[Brother Immolator]

 

Sure, bikes can scout up as well for a similar effect, but you get more firepower from the scouts.

Well this is partly true... 10 scouts with cloaks and BS3 cost as much as 6 bikes... But when it comes to the number of hits

Scouts : 40 shots -> 20 hits

Bikes : 24 shots -> 21hits

 

So the fire power is really the same. But the bikes have T5 save 3+ move 12" and when you give them a melta, they don't drop their TLbolters.

 

Oh and yeah they have a 5+ cover save too...

 

>>>>The heldrake kills scouts just as well as it kills marines

Yup

 

So that's what I'm arguing : before being killed I prefer count on BS3 3+save marines rather than scouts.

 

That above would be bikes 24 twinliked shots BTW so the estimates are off. And been relentless the bikes can charge and add hammer of wrath and their x2 CC attacks in the mix.Even without the CC and Hammer of wrath, the table leans in the bikes favour, except if you max out all your 40 scout shots. Unlikely in the extreme.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

I have come to believe that each time that a guard player against a marine player fields an executioner the powers that be kill a kitten. That now must expand to include fluffy bunnies if using manticores against scout armies .

The powers that be are jerks. ;_;

[shortysl]

Hey, calm down buddy, I was just replying to the OPs post. I don't even use scouts. I have used the banner with tacticals.

I'm completely calm? You quoted my post in yours so I was responding to it.......

[IndigoJack]

 

 

 

Sure, bikes can scout up as well for a similar effect, but you get more firepower from the scouts.

 

Well this is partly true... 10 scouts with cloaks and BS3 cost as much as 6 bikes... But when it comes to the number of hits

Scouts : 40 shots -> 20 hits

Bikes : 24 shots -> 21hits

So the fire power is really the same. But the bikes have T5 save 3+ move 12" and when you give them a melta, they don't drop their TLbolters.

Oh and yeah they have a 5+ cover save too...

>

>>>>The heldrake kills scouts just as well as it kills marines

>

Yup

So that's what I'm arguing : before being killed I prefer count on BS3 3+save marines rather than scouts.

 

That above would be bikes 24 twinliked shots BTW so the estimates are off. And been relentless the bikes can charge and add hammer of wrath and their x2 CC attacks in the mix.Even without the CC and Hammer of wrath, the table leans in the bikes favour, except if you max out all your 40 scout shots. Unlikely in the extreme.

21 hits is right for 24 twin-linked shots. Like I said earlier, there are trade-offs between scouts and bikes. Scouts lean towards a certain style of list. Namely, the alpha strike list mentioned above.

[Brother Immolator]

 

 

 

 

Sure, bikes can scout up as well for a similar effect, but you get more firepower from the scouts.

Well this is partly true... 10 scouts with cloaks and BS3 cost as much as 6 bikes... But when it comes to the number of hits

Scouts : 40 shots -> 20 hits

Bikes : 24 shots -> 21hits

So the fire power is really the same. But the bikes have T5 save 3+ move 12" and when you give them a melta, they don't drop their TLbolters.

Oh and yeah they have a 5+ cover save too...

21 hits is right for 24 twin-linked shots. Like I said earlier, there are trade-offs between scouts and bikes. Scouts lean towards a certain style of list. Namely, the alpha strike list mentioned above

 

 

What is not right is that you compare them  thus:

21 hits for 24 twinlinked shots at bs 4.

And 20 hits at 40 shots with bs3 non twinlinked. That cant be right me thinks.

 

I am not a mathematics expert but I believe that your estimates are off.

[IndigoJack]

While I'm not an expert, I do know a lot of math (just finished my math minor). Since I'm not sure where you're confused, ill break everything down. Sorry if it feels like I'm oversimplifying this.

 

6 bikes can fire 4 shots with the dakka banner. That's 24 shots fired. 2/3 of them hit on average (because you have a 2/3 chance of rolling a 3+) giving you 16 hits. Since it's twin-linked, the 6 shots that missed are re-rolled. 2/3 of them hit giving you another 5.3ish hits. Adding that to the 16 from before and rounding to the nearest whole number gives 21 hits.

 

For the scouts, 10 stationary scouts get 40 shots with the dakka banner. Since they're BS3, only half of their shots hit in average, giving 20 hits.

 

I hope this helps clear up the confusion!