Pre-heresy/Heresy Kharn?

[Conn Eremon]

I'm picturing the artist griping on you for complaining about what s/he feels is a better, more natural appearance all because you're too lazy to use the Find/Replace feature.

 

Not that the artist would be correct, just an amusing thought.

[Greyall]

I always found it funny that the WE's would sport large crests like the other Legions when they seem to have so little patience for aesthetics apart from kill-marks and duel badges. Every time I read about it I assumed they were forced to make use of them.

 

"Your officers must be easily recognizable by both your troops and enemy snipers!"

 

"But the Alpha Legion is clearly in the right on these matters. They understand the advantage of mixNAILRAGEMUSTKILL."

 

The artist (Karl Richardson) not changing the art is a bit strange. I'm going to risk a hunch: Whenever I draw Khârn, the first instinct is to draw a 'cleaner' version of his current armour, since the logical assumption is that, in his crazier state, he wouldn't have the time nor the wits to craft a new armour or even let said suit get put on him, so he simply 'warped' into his current image.

[Warpedpath]

Just a thought about the Helmet... did anyone except me recognise the similaritys between the b/w artwork Helmet and the one the GW Chaos Space Marine Khârn is wearing? take away the bunnyears and add a creast ( there is one in the Sternguard box I think) and : Tadaaaaaa...

[Greyall]

Aye, that's why I assumed Karl Richardson didn't change it to a proper Sarum mask, because it's hard to see Khârn going to the armoury and picking new 'clothes'. He gets so insane it's easier to think of him as having always wore the same armour he wears in 40K, only less warped. The rest of the armour in that artwork suggests the same.

[DuskRaider]

Oh, I referencing to the Bunny Ear helm. Didn't see that other picture.

[hisdudeness]

Greyall, I believe that is contrary to how Khârn (and most other WE) really are. They are still Marines and still have the basic combat discipline. I'm not talking about on the field but off. Every soldier knows that your equipment is life and when possible you (or most likely in the WE case, the attached armorers) have to inspect it for serviceablity. I could see some WE going for personal preference over uniformity while others just grab what ever they are given as a replacement for damaged parts.

[Greyall]

Absolutely, HisDudeness. The issue I mentioned is something that's on the artist's (but mind you, I don't know if that's what happened with Mr. Richardson, I risk saying so because his Khârn looks a lot like the 40K one) side. When you draw a prequel-picture of a very well-known and distinct character, your first reaction is to come up with an older version of an element that's characteristic of him. You can try the opposite as with the bunny-ears artwork and go for the difference-shock effect, but even then Wayne England felt the need to add the [non-]Khorne-Horns. It's just doesn't ring well that the viewers aren't able to identify a character they love unless they read the captions under your work.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, sometimes I like looking for captions. The whole point of traveling from point A to point B is the change in scenery. Point A Khârn, should(in my mind) bear deviation from Point B Khârn. Daytona Beach does not look like New York City. London does not look like Cardiff. Paris does not look like Madrid. Khârn, 8th Assault Captain of the XII Legion World Eaters should not look like Khârn the Betrayer, Champion of Khorne.

[Greyall]

Not the best parallel, lol, but I get what you're saying, I like shock-value and radical evolution, as well. But it's fun to spot something in a character's older self and recognize that from the newer - or vice-versa, but seeing a previous version of one tends to be a greater shock as it usually shows more signs of 'naivete' (I use the word to symbolize loyalty, duty, goodness, etc., since human beings tend to harden with age until a certain point).

[DuskRaider]

Khârn should have an aura of noble savagery about him. His Pre-Heresy / Pre-Fall demeanor smacks of the "trope". 

[A D-B]

Actually, sometimes I like looking for captions. The whole point of traveling from point A to point B is the change in scenery. Point A Khârn, should(in my mind) bear deviation from Point B Khârn. Daytona Beach does not look like New York City. London does not look like Cardiff. Paris does not look like Madrid. Khârn, 8th Assault Captain of the XII Legion World Eaters should not look like Khârn the Betrayer, Champion of Khorne.

 

Obviously, there's a world I can't say on the wider subject, but I can address this little bit before bowing out. On one hand, in IP work, you do need to have very large visual similarities in characters like Greyall suggests. Obviously. On the other hand, making the crest normal size and giving him the famous mouthpiece of his Heresy-era Legion isn't going to break any banks, and seeing as it's likely he'll eventually get a Forge World model (because: main character; not because: inside information) I'm willing to bet he'd look different to that art, and have more Heresy-ness to him. 

[Warpedpath]

I didnt want to light a fire here... xD I just mentioned what I saw, and to be Honest, I might think that Khârn would grab everything he can get as armor, weapon, equipment, whatever, or even try to beat his enemys to death after his...lets call it fall(?), or at least the part with the weapons when hes lost to the nails, so I tend to believe that his 40k alter ego should look waaaaaay different to his 30k one... because he doesnt care as long as it suits him.

Personaly I hope if there will be a mini of him done by FW, it will be with a bareheaded option.... just to stop the rumors about how exactly a friggin "Sarum Pattern MK IV Helmet" looks like :D

[Greyall]

I'm going to throw one more argument: Mk7 has the 'dubious' honour of being iconic for Space Marines. Meaning you see one, you see an Astartes. Also, you see one in a Special Character, you see an Astartes. You see a character with an awesome decorated armour with a MK7/Sarum helm, you see a generic Captain. Of course, cables and bolts and some of those details make the difference, but it's still a very 'Look, a Space Marine!' situation.

 

You're right, ADB it wouldn't have been character-breaking to give him a Sarum, nor is Khârn's helm THAT different from one. But I don't think I'm speaking strictly personally when I say some characters put their weight on an illustrator's shoulders (yes, the whole ton-and-a-half). To come up with a generalist guy would've been a scary thought for me. But yes, that's definitely something an artist has to cope with.

 

PS: I do hope this doesn't sound like I'm diminishing Karl Richardson's work. I like his Khârn and he draws some of the most (and most believable) dynamic Marine poses around.

 

PS2: I'm with the bareheaded Khârn mini, too.

[depthcharge12]

I dont want a derpraege face.

 

 

I want Khârn to have the cold bored look on his face as he makes organ donors out of Ultramarines

[hisdudeness]

That is exactly how I picture him after reading Betrayer. The guy that is so confident in his fighting ability that he has nothing to prove and does not shy away from a challenge without a thought.

[depthcharge12]

I want a diorama with Argel Tal and Khârn skipping and holding hands through a field...

 

 

of dismembered spiritual lieges. Because. Bromance.

[Greyall]

of dismembered spiritual lieges

 

Out-loud-laughter released. Sealing mouth-hatches now.

[A D-B]

I'm going to throw one more argument: Mk7 has the 'dubious' honour of being iconic for Space Marines. Meaning you see one, you see an Astartes. Also, you see one in a Special Character, you see an Astartes. You see a character with an awesome decorated armour with a MK7/Sarum helm, you see a generic Captain. Of course, cables and bolts and some of those details make the difference, but it's still a very 'Look, a Space Marine!' situation.

 

Given that it's IP work, there are many ways to make a character resemble his later incarnation without doing almost exactly the same helm. Or keeping a crest small instead of normal sized, for... reasons.

 

Look, there's a lot I can't say, and my subtle hints aren't working (because they're terrible). So, as a last attempt, Editorial (the people commanding the Heresy ship, here) asked for the changes and passed mine on, too. Some artists are just very reluctant to change pieces they consider finished. And then print deadlines happen.

[A D-B]

I didnt want to light a fire here... xD I just mentioned what I saw, and to be Honest, I might think that Khârn would grab everything he can get as armor, weapon, equipment, whatever, or even try to beat his enemys to death after his...lets call it fall(?), or at least the part with the weapons when hes lost to the nails, so I tend to believe that his 40k alter ego should look waaaaaay different to his 30k one... because he doesnt care as long as it suits him.

Personaly I hope if there will be a mini of him done by FW, it will be with a bareheaded option.... just to stop the rumors about how exactly a friggin "Sarum Pattern MK IV Helmet" looks like

Ah, not much of a rumour. Sarum helms look like that old black and white Khorne Berzerker / World Eater art from their Index Astartes article/book, and the current Forge World 40K World Eater helmets. The 'fanged' mouth grilles.

[DuskRaider]

They show Sarum helms in Bertrayer. There's not much of a rumor to it, but there isn't an actual piece to represent it... with the exception of the FW Berserker kits, as AD-B has mentioned.

[Greyall]

By "fanged mouth grilles" do you mean with or without the fangs? They're a bit too Chaosy, but they also don't look like the Marine's own teeth (not because they're pointy, but because of their dimensions and lack of chin.

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/AlternativeFW/xlarge/Weconv9.jpg

[A D-B]

By "fanged mouth grilles" do you mean with or without the fangs? They're a bit too Chaosy, but they also don't look like the Marine's own teeth (not because they're pointy, but because of their dimensions and lack of chin.

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/AlternativeFW/xlarge/Weconv9.jpg

 

They use axes and swords that have motorised teeth, have brain implants that leech almost every emotion except rage, and you say having metal teeth as a mouth grille is "too Chaosy". I appreciate it's one of the many, many, many different Chaos aesthetics. Which is why they have it: this is how it started. Perhaps like the spikes on Sons of Horus Reavers.

 

There are a lot of armour marks and variants in the Heresy, and the World Eaters have some pretty savage-looking armour. Sarum isn't a nice world. The World Eaters aren't a nice Legion.

 

When Forge World say the World Eaters have plenty of those helms, perhaps I could've said "They're too Chaosy". But I don't think they are, and in the context of chainsaw swords and the fact even 20th Century war planes and missiles have teeth painted on them, calling a Sarum helm "too Chaosy" activates my hilarity unit, to quote Bender. Its just a mouth grille. In context, that's nothing at all to do with Chaos. 

 

Look at the wider Heresy range already out. You'll have trouble convincing me the most savage Legion having fanged mouth grilles is too close to Chaos.

[Greyall]

I see your point, though it's still a bold new step, I think only Erebus surpasses this in 'nudge-nudge-hint-hint'-falling to Chaos effect.

 

It's the sculpted gums, I always assumed that was the Marine's own mouth.

 

Nice one, didn't see that coming. Now I want a helmeted Khârn.

[Legatus]

 

 You'll have trouble convincing me the most savage Legion having fanged mouth grilles is too close to Chaos.

 

But aren't the Space Wolves loyalists?

[Greyall]

Oh he went there!