Nephilim Jetfighter - Homebrew/House Rules

[Xarga]

Hey guys, obviously as a general consensus most of us feel the Nephilim Jetfighter is rather lackluster. It's not awful by any means but for its points cost it doesn't really do it's job well enough to worth investing in. In my free time today i was thinking about ways to improve it and i felt it needed a slight points deduction so i came up with some hombrew/house rules for it. Obviously these won't be useable in competitive games and tournaments (not that i play all to many of those anyway) but might let you use that rather sexy model on the field for once in a friendly game, providing your opponent approves of course.

 

I have saved a copy of my experimental rules here in an image for people to use. (I'm having trouble finding were to put attachments as i have saved this as a pdf, if anyone can help with that it would be much appreciated).

 

 

Hopefully these rules appear balanced, appealing and fluff appropriate. The idea behind them is first an foremost to make the Nephilim an air superiority fighter with the ability to opt to instead be effective against light armored fast skimmers and bikes/jetbikes.

 

I may also write up some rules for the Dark Talon also and will post those here if i do.

 

Feedback would be much appreciated if you think anything is over/underpowered or costed or just generally out of place, general comments and alternatives. If we come to a consensus of new rules i'm happy to write up a new version and post it here along side the current version.

 

And most importantly would you actually use these rules? :)

 

 

[Edits: 1 - grammar. 2 - Reupload of image with grammar corrections. 3 - some additional wording]

[Isiah]

I think that for character its pretty much spot on. Maybe think about more weapon upgrade options i.e. swapping tl-hb for tl-mm or typhoon missile launcher, and swapping tl-las with tl-ac or tl-plasma cannon or the mega bolter.

 

But great, I might be tempted with one or two of these as top cover :).

 

Cheers

I

[Xarga]

I think that for character its pretty much spot on. Maybe think about more weapon upgrade options i.e. swapping tl-hb for tl-mm or typhoon missile launcher, and swapping tl-las with tl-ac or tl-plasma cannon or the mega bolter.

But great, I might be tempted with one or two of these as top cover .

Cheers

I

Thanks :) My initial thought was not to stray too far with weapon options but then again various other astartes flyers have similar weapon configurations as to what you've described so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch and i do like the idea of a CML on this thing. However then comes the modelling issues (if anyone is to ever use these rules :P). The TL-MM (usuing snipped off ends of regular MM's) and Cyclone Missile Launcher (perhaps cutting in half the Storm Raven one and neatening them up) would be a pretty easy swap with magnets in the same position as the the current TL-HB's. The TL-PC or TL-AC may potentially be more of a challenge to fit them in the space the TL-LC/AMB currently is but not impossible. My other issue is do you think people would use the AMB anymore if they have the option to take a TL-AC instead? I can see alot of people preferring that twin-linked and rending over the extra shot and range although choice is not necessarily a bad thing. Sorry if anything i said comes across as douchey it's not intended just asking genuine questions but thanks for the feedback :)

[Master Avoghai]

Actually I don't think the Nephilim would need special rules like ace pilot or stabilizers.

 

The main problem of the Nephilim is the power of its weapons.

The new profile of the missiles you did is just fine.

 

Maybe you can add the limitation "against flyers" for the ace pilot rule if you keep it... Would temper the effect and represent the fact that ground troops are not that easy to kill with a flyer...

[Jehoel]

Personally, without it explaining the Heat Seeker rule, no I would not use that. I would say keep to the rules in the BGB. Otherwise, I agree with Master Avoghai as to the Nephilim's weaknesses. I would like to see the missiles given the Armorbane rule myself. With that rule the codex cost would be fine.

[elphilo]

I think you're pushing the limit here in terms of balance. I feel Ace Pilot is much much MUCH better than Unrelenting Hunter. And making Strafing Run cost more when the original comes with it just seems silly to me.

 

So I would say keep the weapon options as they are, maybe add an Twin-Linked Assault Cannon option in there. Drop Weapon Stabilizers and Ace Pilot. Give it back Strafing Run and Unrelenting Hunter. Also, depending on what heat seeker does, the Missiles are fine. Just bumping the Blacksword Missiles to S7 seems to make this more viable, at least in my head.

[Master Avoghai]

. Also, depending on what heat seeker does, the Missiles are fine. Just bumping the Blacksword Missiles to S7 seems to make this more viable, at least in my head.

Heat seeker is the missile version of "twin-link"

 

Personally I think FW missed the opportunity to create something original with such name like "always resolve the hit against rear armour, no matter the origin of the shoot"

[elphilo]

Well then heat seeker is a must then. Twin Linked helps offset the fact its 1 shot only.

[shortysl]

Well then heat seeker is a must then. Twin Linked helps offset the fact its 1 shot only.

Oh I don't know, you can fire two per turn and I can't think of too many armies that have enough fliers to justify having six Twin-Linked Missiles slung under the wings (granted I haven't played a Necron spam list or a Valkyrie/Vendetta heavy Guard list).

 

I also think Armourbane might be a little too heavy, I'd rather have the Strength 7. 

 

I do think that perhaps a variant of Skilled Rider might be in order; Skilled Pilot granting a +1 to Jink saves representing the idea that only the most skilled of the Ravenwing are granted the honour of piloting a Nephilim. Hard to find fluff to justify that too though I suppose.

[elphilo]

Adding armor bane would make the points of the Nephilim a steal and a MUST take. I don't think adding twin linked to the one shot per missiles is too far fetched. It is our air superiority vehicle. So twin-linking just ensures that.

 

As to adding a variant of skilled rider, its interesting, but I don't think its feasible. Strafe Run and Unrelenting hunter aren't the best abilities in the game, but they aren't hugely underpowered either.

[Xarga]

Master Avoghai, on 08 May 2013 - 23:14, said:

Actually I don't think the Nephilim would need special rules like ace pilot or stabilizers.

The main problem of the Nephilim is the power of its weapons.

The new profile of the missiles you did is just fine.

Maybe you can add the limitation "against flyers" for the ace pilot rule if you keep it... Would temper the effect and represent the fact that ground troops are not that easy to kill with a flyer...

You make some valid points. Perhaps Ace Pilot and stabilsers aren't really needed but i will at least first explain my thought behind them. Ace Pilot was my intention to somewhat differentiate the flyer somewhat from other astartes flyers. In an effort to demonstrate the skill of the Ravenwing pilots rather than it just being a somewhat up-armored Storm Talon, maybe it's not necessary as we have Unrelenting Hunter already. My reasoning behind removing Strafing Run as default and it being a payed upgrade was two reasons; firstly to offset the addition of Ace Pilot and secondly i find Strafing Run not essential to the Nephilim if you're using it in an anti-air role. I left it their as a payed upgrade so it was still possible to take should the player wish to use it as a ground support craft but again perhaps the points are off and none of this is needed.

I agree 100% that the default Nephilim's offensive power is insufficient for it's points cost. In a slight effort to offset that i slightly improved it's otherwise paper mache missiles and gave the option for a payed twin-linked multi-melta bringing it back to near it's previous points cost with more firepower. Although i don't know if this is enough and/or if the points of the flyer/upgrades are right. I do think the default wargear loadout (TL-LC, TL-HB, 6 Blacksword Missiles) for the Nephilim should however remain the same (even if the points change) for consistency and modelings sake. Though in terms of upgrades perhaps we need to think of better ways to improve it's firepower for specific roles.

Understandably i can see the issue of perhaps ignoring all Jink save might be a tad too powerful. My thought behind it was that it describes the Nephilim being not only an air superiority fighter but relatively efficient anti-tank (the Eldar grav tanks in this case) role and jetbike killer with the AMB. All of which benefit from Jink saves but perhaps this is a case were gameplay should override appropriated fluff. Perhaps limiting it like you said but to flyers and fast skimmers, as most things that involve some kind of efficiency against flyers usually includes skimmers of some kind. Another option might be instead of ignoring Jink all together perhaps a penalty to their Jink saves like -1 to all their Jink rolls or something like that. Or perhaps redesigning or removing the rule all together.

Jehoel, on 09 May 2013 - 02:55, said:

Personally, without it explaining the Heat Seeker rule, no I would not use that. I would say keep to the rules in the BGB. Otherwise, I agree with Master Avoghai as to the Nephilim's weaknesses. I would like to see the missiles given the Armorbane rule myself. With that rule the codex cost would be fine.

Perhaps limiting all the special rules to the BRB would be convenient as obviously not everyone has access to said imperial armour books and after all this isn't a forge world unit. Perhaps discussing an alternative would be a good idea. Though i just found Heat Seeker to be so appropriate for the missiles and the role of the Nephilim and i struggled to find anything appropriate and beneficial (without being overpowered) in the BRB. Personally at least i don't think Armorbane would be appropriate to the missiles, i feel with having 6 of them would just be a bit too powerful. It would make more sense to me for the the missiles to get a strength buff over S6 Armourbane anyway.

(Without fully discussing what it does as the mods may not be happy with that, Heat Seeker gives a certain advantage in trying to hit certain fast and aerial things.)

elphilo, on 09 May 2013 - 13:34, said:

I think you're pushing the limit here in terms of balance. I feel Ace Pilot is much much MUCH better than Unrelenting Hunter. And making Strafing Run cost more when the original comes with it just seems silly to me.

So I would say keep the weapon options as they are, maybe add an Twin-Linked Assault Cannon option in there. Drop Weapon Stabilizers and Ace Pilot. Give it back Strafing Run and Unrelenting Hunter. Also, depending on what heat seeker does, the Missiles are fine. Just bumping the Blacksword Missiles to S7 seems to make this more viable, at least in my head.

Perhaps you are right and someone else has mentioned it also, Ace Pilot didn't sound quite as potent as i thought initially in my head so redesign or removal of that is probably a good idea. As for removing Strafing Run as default, my reasoning behind that is that the Nephilim first and foremost is an air superiority fighter were as the the Dark Talon is ground support. So Strafing Run is not really needed if your're using you're Nephilim for anit-air and increases it's points cost unnecessarily. I left it in as a payed upgrade so that should you wish to still run it in a ground support role the option is still there. However in terms of all the points costs, i'm not sure if i have them all right. Further discussion on points cost is probably needed. However this is all experimental so i'm happy to improve and change all of this.

As for a twin-linked assault cannon, what would you suggest it replaces and for what points cost?

Master Avoghai, on 09 May 2013 - 14:13, said:

Quote

. Also, depending on what heat seeker does, the Missiles are fine. Just bumping the Blacksword Missiles to S7 seems to make this more viable, at least in my head.

Heat seeker is the missile version of "twin-link"

Personally I think FW missed the opportunity to create something original with such name like "always resolve the hit against rear armour, no matter the origin of the shoot"

That is an interesting idea as an alternative to Heat Seeker, i like that. Do you think perhaps that it would only affect flyers? Perhaps fast skimmers too? or everything? Only thought is it wouldn't really benefit against certain flyers that have the same AV all around like a Storm Raven for example.

shortysl, on 09 May 2013 - 15:53, said:

elphilo, on 09 May 2013 - 14:58, said:

Well then heat seeker is a must then. Twin Linked helps offset the fact its 1 shot only.

Oh I don't know, you can fire two per turn and I can't think of too many armies that have enough fliers to justify having six Twin-Linked Missiles slung under the wings (granted I haven't played a Necron spam list or a Valkyrie/Vendetta heavy Guard list).

I also think Armourbane might be a little too heavy, I'd rather have the Strength 7.

I do think that perhaps a variant of Skilled Rider might be in order; Skilled Pilot granting a +1 to Jink saves representing the idea that only the most skilled of the Ravenwing are granted the honor of piloting a Nephilim. Hard to find fluff to justify that too though I suppose.

I agree Armourbane might be a bit too much and S7 feels at least to me like a nice, appropriate number for six missiles. My idea behind Heat Seeker (baring in mind its affect only works against certain aerial and fast floaty vehicles ) was to reinforce the idea that the Nephilim is primarily an anti-air fighter and to make them a bit different. Otherwise the missiles would essentially just be a limited use autocannon with less range. Although any alternatives to this are much welcome

I do quite like the idea of a flyer version of Skilled Rider, it would feel fluffy and also be quite beneficial and a good alternative to Ace Pilot. If anyone else agrees or wants to elaborate on this, i can see the potential for this to work and be included.

Baring in mind everyone these are Homebrew rules we're coming up with, not the potential realistic improvements to the codex rules that could be errataed in. Although obviously still required to be balanced and fluff appropriate it just leaves us some fun and what we would truly like the Nephilim to have been. I'm very much enjoying this discussion and the feedback everyone is giving, and looking forward to finalising some rules to let us use that model on the board in friendly games.

[Edit: for grammar]

[Master Avoghai]

Well then heat seeker is a must then. Twin Linked helps offset the fact its 1 shot only.

I don't mind re-rolling to hit if I don't have any chance to penetrate armor... With S6 I have only 33% to GLANCE a A11 flyer... And 16% to GLANCE a A12 flyer (like a storm raven)

 

That means that IF you hit with ALL your missiles you can hope glancing a storm raven ONCE IN A GAME

 

Do you really think that heat seeker is worth taking?

 

Armour bane + S6 would actually give 13 or more to penetrate 50% of the time, which combined with no re-roll, one use, 2 missile/turn, random result of damage table seems kinda fair to me...

[cypherkk]

I was thinking of leaving the missiles strength at 6 the giving then armor bane and skyfire. This would make then an air to air missile not usable against ground targets really. Otherwise leaving the jet the same.

 

I do like the idea of upgrading the hb to a mm, but that would make it an excellent ground attack vehicle instead of an air superiority fighter.

[elphilo]

 

Well then heat seeker is a must then. Twin Linked helps offset the fact its 1 shot only.

I don't mind re-rolling to hit if I don't have any chance to penetrate armor... With S6 I have only 33% to GLANCE a A11 flyer... And 16% to GLANCE a A12 flyer (like a storm raven)

 

That means that IF you hit with ALL your missiles you can hope glancing a storm raven ONCE IN A GAME

 

Do you really think that heat seeker is worth taking?

 

Armour bane + S6 would actually give 13 or more to penetrate 50% of the time, which combined with no re-roll, one use, 2 missile/turn, random result of damage table seems kinda fair to me...

I never said just adding Twin-Linked will make it worth it. The quoted statement was in conjunction with my previous post about making the missiles S7.

 

And honestly, I think putting armor bane on the missiles (no matter what iteration you prefer) will make them really overpowered. They would suddenly become the BEST anti-air in the game and a MUST take for DA players. I just don't ever see that happening. If you did add armor bane, you would have to jack the points cost up significantly IMO.

[Retaliation]

As an alternative to simple things like increasing the strength of blacksword missiles, what about simply increasing the jetfighter's ability to get after a flyer's rear armor? Say it had a special rule that treated the targeted flyer's rear armor as 10 and gave vector dancer?

[Master Avoghai]

And honestly, I think putting armor bane on the missiles (no matter what iteration you prefer) will make them really overpowered. They would suddenly become the BEST anti-air in the game and a MUST take for DA players. I just don't ever see that happening. If you did add armor bane, you would have to jack the points cost up significantly IMO.

It's not like vendetta/Valkyries are a must take for IG player (costing nearly half the price of a nephilim)

It's not like helldrakes are a must take for any chaos army

It's not like storm raven/talon are a must take for any vanilla/BA/GK player...

 

Now, we have DA players who are ok to pay the 100 pts of the vendetta + the cost of an IG HQ + the cost of a vets squad just to have an AA answer...

When I see that I don't think a 180pts nephilim with S6 armourbane missiles would be "overpowered"...

 

Like I've said :

- those missiles would be effect less 50% of the time (pen armour)

- no reroll means 4 of 6 missiles that will indeed hit/battle

- AP4 => no damages table bonus => half of your rolls WON'T give you a destroy result.

- it's still the 2nd most costly flyer of the game.

- the only flyer more expensive has A12 transport capacity, may also transport a dread and has access to more weapons.

- just wait to see the eldar flyer coming next month... 90% chances to be a nightwing with TL bright lances... I can bet it will also be something like 150pts

 

There's a lot of odds that make me think that 180 for a A11 no transport flyer that requires one of DA's most crucial slot (FAST ATTACK) is not too expensive with 6 armourbane missiles

[cypherkk]

Agreed with master avogai. It's important to note that pretty much every other flyer in the game can also take out the nephilim in one round of shooting, 2 tops, so This would level the field.

 

I think the av 12 armor flyer vehicles murder the meta and make balancing flyers nearly impossible

[shortysl]

I think we also need to keep in mind the role of the Nephilim; personally, I'm not sure why GW ever advocated it as a ground-attack aircraft. In my opinion, that's the role of the Dark Talon. The Ravenwing are all about the Hunt for the Fallen; their other duties are always linked to that in some way, so what the Nephilim should've been is an aircraft that fulfils a role in the Ravenwing that other units can't; that of a pure air-superiority fighter. The Ravenwing don't need any extra ground-attack capability.

 

This of course, is all just my opinion.

 

I would personally remove the Strafing Run rule; I believe Ravenwing pilots would be trained solely in engaging and eliminating enemy aircraft to allow their groundside brothers to achieve their goal. I don't think it should be a jack-of-all-trades. This is why I suggested Skilled Pilot; Ravenwing bikers are trained to be superior to any other force in mounted combat and I can envision Ravenwing pilots being no different (providing potential justification for their increased Jink).

 

I don't like the Multi-Melta idea; I just don't see it as a dogfighting weapon myself and I think others are right when they say Twin-Linked Assault Cannons might overshadow the Avenger Mega Bolter. I'd be happy to see the addition of Twin-Linked Autocannons as a replacement option for the Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters.

 

Strength 7 Blackswords, Twin-Linked Autocannon option, Skilled Pilot, maybe Rending on the Avenger Bolter (got to balance it against the Titan-Class Vulcan Mega Bolter) but keep the Twin-Linked Lascannon option (precedent set by the Thunderbolt). I'd happily pay 160-180 points for this.

[elphilo]

It's not like vendetta/Valkyries are a must take for IG player (costing nearly half the price of a nephilim)

It's not like helldrakes are a must take for any chaos army

It's not like storm raven/talon are a must take for any vanilla/BA/GK player...

I really hope this is sarcasm

Well I might be wrong then. But I think you're all undervaluing armor bane by a lot.

those missiles would be effect less 50% of the time (pen armour)

And if we were living in a world where AV12 was on everything you'd be right. An Armor Bane S6 missile would make Rhinos even more vulnerable. Any AV10 would be virtually pointless vs DA. And the fact you would have a 10/36 chance to pen AV14 off a S6 weapon with 36" range is insane. This isn't a game where flyers only go after other flyers. There is other armor on the table and adding something as big as Armor Bane on a weapon you have to take that into consideration.

no reroll means 4 of 6 missiles that will indeed hit/battle

Yep, but you don't have to shoot the 2 missiles at each target. The BRB says a maximum of two missiles can be fired per Shooting phase. So that means you can fire one at a time till it destroys the vehicle in question.

AP4 => no damages table bonus => half of your rolls WON'T give you a destroy result.

The Jetfighter is actually in a better position, as it is now, than most to destroy a vehicle faster because of Unrelenting Hunter. So this point actually hurts your argument

it's still the 2nd most costly flyer of the game.

Correct. It only costs 10 points more than a Helldrake with baleflamer. Now if we were to add armor bane it would be a must have in all DA lists. Just like the flyers you posted before. I don't know about your area, but people around here tend to play to win so they usually take 1 or 2 of them.

the only flyer more expensive has A12 transport capacity, may also transport a dread and has access to more weapons.

You're right. And with the DA and Tau codex they seem to be stepping away from over the top flyers. I agree the Chaos flyer is a little much, but it only became all the rage when it was FAQed to have a turret. Before that it was okay, now its a must have. Though because of the price of the Storm Raven it isn't a must have. In fact, they lowered it in the Skies of Death book IIRC. Its like a flying Land Raider and most tournament recaps I see don't usually include it because of the points. Now because its a good flyer and you don't see it in every tournament list, it probably means its points is balanced with its abilities.

- just wait to see the eldar flyer coming next month... 90% chances to be a nightwing with TL bright lances... I can bet it will also be something like 150pts

I'm sure they'll have a decent flyer. Hopefully not over the top like the Chaos one, but more along the lines of the DA and Tau ones.

There's a lot of odds that make me think that 180 for a A11 no transport flyer that requires one of DA's most crucial slot (FAST ATTACK) is not too expensive with 6 armourbane missiles

We have a lot of tricks to free up those fast attack slots. While all your points are good ones. I just can't hop on the Armor Bane on the missiles with no points increase would fix our Flyer bandwagon. I think just making the missiles S7, so they are inline with Flakk missiles, would fix the Jetfighter. But to add armor bane without adding a points jump is just a little much to me.

[Master Avoghai]

The Tau flyer is not bad... 360° arc of fire with interception...And cheaper than ours...

Anyway... What about S7 rending?

+++EDIT+++

And yeah it was sarcasm

[Smurfalypse]

 

And honestly, I think putting armor bane on the missiles (no matter what iteration you prefer) will make them really overpowered. They would suddenly become the BEST anti-air in the game and a MUST take for DA players. I just don't ever see that happening. If you did add armor bane, you would have to jack the points cost up significantly IMO.

It's not like vendetta/Valkyries are a must take for IG player (costing nearly half the price of a nephilim)

It's not like helldrakes are a must take for any chaos army

It's not like storm raven/talon are a must take for any vanilla/BA/GK player...

 

Now, we have DA players who are ok to pay the 100 pts of the vendetta + the cost of an IG HQ + the cost of a vets squad just to have an AA answer...

When I see that I don't think a 180pts nephilim with S6 armourbane missiles would be "overpowered"...

 

Like I've said :

- those missiles would be effect less 50% of the time (pen armour)

- no reroll means 4 of 6 missiles that will indeed hit/battle

- AP4 => no damages table bonus => half of your rolls WON'T give you a destroy result.

- it's still the 2nd most costly flyer of the game.

- the only flyer more expensive has A12 transport capacity, may also transport a dread and has access to more weapons.

- just wait to see the eldar flyer coming next month... 90% chances to be a nightwing with TL bright lances... I can bet it will also be something like 150pts

 

There's a lot of odds that make me think that 180 for a A11 no transport flyer that requires one of DA's most crucial slot (FAST ATTACK) is not too expensive with 6 armourbane missiles

 

You just compared a 6th ed unit from a 6th ed book, to a 5th ed unit from a 5th ed codex. Of course stuff in the 5th ed book are not balanced greatly. 

 

lol yes, Storm Raven is a must take and with a SINGLE multi melta it is the price of a Land Raider. . . Make the Nephalim 210-220 pts with the upgrades you think are balanced and it would be a fair price.

 

CSM players DO take the Heldrake, however it has only ONE gun that serves only ONE role (flame template takes out ground infantry, it has no other role in the game). Also it is the same area in points as your Nephilim, WITH ONE GUN!

 

Point - If you cannot balance something correctly, do not attempt to change the rules and do it yourself :P If you want the most broken vehicle in the game and it makes you feel better to run something like that, feel free to cheat all your friends (because I know random folks would not allow this). 

[shortysl]

And honestly, I think putting armor bane on the missiles (no matter what iteration you prefer) will make them really overpowered. They would suddenly become the BEST anti-air in the game and a MUST take for DA players. I just don't ever see that happening. If you did add armor bane, you would have to jack the points cost up significantly IMO.

It's not like vendetta/Valkyries are a must take for IG player (costing nearly half the price of a nephilim)

It's not like helldrakes are a must take for any chaos army

It's not like storm raven/talon are a must take for any vanilla/BA/GK player...

Now, we have DA players who are ok to pay the 100 pts of the vendetta + the cost of an IG HQ + the cost of a vets squad just to have an AA answer...

When I see that I don't think a 180pts nephilim with S6 armourbane missiles would be "overpowered"...

Like I've said :

- those missiles would be effect less 50% of the time (pen armour)

- no reroll means 4 of 6 missiles that will indeed hit/battle

- AP4 => no damages table bonus => half of your rolls WON'T give you a destroy result.

- it's still the 2nd most costly flyer of the game.

- the only flyer more expensive has A12 transport capacity, may also transport a dread and has access to more weapons.

- just wait to see the eldar flyer coming next month... 90% chances to be a nightwing with TL bright lances... I can bet it will also be something like 150pts

There's a lot of odds that make me think that 180 for a A11 no transport flyer that requires one of DA's most crucial slot (FAST ATTACK) is not too expensive with 6 armourbane missiles

You just compared a 6th ed unit from a 6th ed book, to a 5th ed unit from a 5th ed codex. Of course stuff in the 5th ed book are not balanced greatly.

lol yes, Storm Raven is a must take and with a SINGLE multi melta it is the price of a Land Raider. . . Make the Nephalim 210-220 pts with the upgrades you think are balanced and it would be a fair price.

CSM players DO take the Heldrake, however it has only ONE gun that serves only ONE role (flame template takes out ground infantry, it has no other role in the game). Also it is the same area in points as your Nephilim, WITH ONE GUN!

Point - If you cannot balance something correctly, do not attempt to change the rules and do it yourself If you want the most broken vehicle in the game and it makes you feel better to run something like that, feel free to cheat all your friends (because I know random folks would not allow this).

When did the Stormraven become 250 points with a Multi-Melta? I think the main problem with the Nephilim is, unlike the Heldrake, it doesn't perform it's intended role effectively. The Heldrake might only have a single ranged weapon but it is exceptionally effective with it and let's not forget the Heldrake can Vector Strike, so it's not like that one gun is it's only form of attack.

I honestly don't think that people are trying to get an overpowered flier here, we're making suggestions as to how it can perform it's intended role effectively. It's supposed to be an air superiority fighter but it can't successfully engage fliers. I think you'll find there are a number of reasonable suggestions for houserules on here.

[elphilo]

The Tau flyer is not bad... 360° arc of fire with interception...And cheaper than ours...

Anyway... What about S7 rending?

+++EDIT+++

And yeah it was sarcasm

Yep its a decent flyer. Its not over the top and its priced appropriately. I believe that the current state of the Jetfighter a points reduction would make it viable. Like 20ish points would be good. Because if we wanted to be in the Tau flyer range we'd have to start dropping AV.

And rending, I might be able to get behind this. But it would have to remain at S6 rending. I don't think there is anything out there that is S7 Rending(I know GKs get it but they pay 20ish points to upgrade to it )

I honestly don't think that people are trying to get an overpowered flier here, we're making suggestions as to how it can perform it's intended role effectively. It's supposed to be an air superiority fighter but it can't successfully engage fliers. I think you'll find there are a number of reasonable suggestions for houserules on here.

I agree with you here. But Smurfalypse was only saying that because he believes, as do I, that adding Armor Bane to these missiles would make them over the top. When creating homebrewed rules that are balanced, one has to look at other things in the game to draw inspiration from. Now I just did a quick look in the new codices and the Reference chart for weapons in the BRB and found no ranged weapon with armor bane. So one has to assume that it wasn't meant to be on a ranged weapon.

[Master Avoghai]

And honestly, I think putting armor bane on the missiles (no matter what iteration you prefer) will make them really overpowered. They would suddenly become the BEST anti-air in the game and a MUST take for DA players. I just don't ever see that happening. If you did add armor bane, you would have to jack the points cost up significantly IMO.

It's not like vendetta/Valkyries are a must take for IG player (costing nearly half the price of a nephilim)

It's not like helldrakes are a must take for any chaos army

It's not like storm raven/talon are a must take for any vanilla/BA/GK player...

Now, we have DA players who are ok to pay the 100 pts of the vendetta + the cost of an IG HQ + the cost of a vets squad just to have an AA answer...

When I see that I don't think a 180pts nephilim with S6 armourbane missiles would be "overpowered"...

Like I've said :

- those missiles would be effect less 50% of the time (pen armour)

- no reroll means 4 of 6 missiles that will indeed hit/battle

- AP4 => no damages table bonus => half of your rolls WON'T give you a destroy result.

- it's still the 2nd most costly flyer of the game.

- the only flyer more expensive has A12 transport capacity, may also transport a dread and has access to more weapons.

- just wait to see the eldar flyer coming next month... 90% chances to be a nightwing with TL bright lances... I can bet it will also be something like 150pts

There's a lot of odds that make me think that 180 for a A11 no transport flyer that requires one of DA's most crucial slot (FAST ATTACK) is not too expensive with 6 armourbane missiles

You just compared a 6th ed unit from a 6th ed book, to a 5th ed unit from a 5th ed codex. Of course stuff in the 5th ed book are not balanced greatly.

lol yes, Storm Raven is a must take and with a SINGLE multi melta it is the price of a Land Raider. . . Make the Nephalim 210-220 pts with the upgrades you think are balanced and it would be a fair price.

CSM players DO take the Heldrake, however it has only ONE gun that serves only ONE role (flame template takes out ground infantry, it has no other role in the game). Also it is the same area in points as your Nephilim, WITH ONE GUN!

Point - If you cannot balance something correctly, do not attempt to change the rules and do it yourself If you want the most broken vehicle in the game and it makes you feel better to run something like that, feel free to cheat all your friends (because I know random folks would not allow this).

Point - If I would like something broken I'd ask for A12 flyer with ceramite plates... Don't need any broken flyer... I already own a Caestus thank you...

Storm Raven 5th ed really? Have you forgotten the Death from the skies Compendium? It's 6th edition and GW profited from it to lower the storm talon's cost. If they really wanted to fix something concerning the Valkyries/Storm Talon etc, don't you think they'd profit from this compendium to do so?

Yeah Helldrakes are fantastic troops killers... But don't forget they have vector strike too... Anyway, Helldrake are supposed to be soul killers and that's what they do pretty well.

On the other hand, Nephilim are supposed to be tank hunters or, at least, flyers hunter and that's not what they do game wise...

So limit the use of the missile against flyer and FMC only if you like but S7 + other special rule (heat seeker/rending/armorbane...) is the minimum for a A11, non transport flyer which costs 180pts...

[Smurfalypse]

And honestly, I think putting armor bane on the missiles (no matter what iteration you prefer) will make them really overpowered. They would suddenly become the BEST anti-air in the game and a MUST take for DA players. I just don't ever see that happening. If you did add armor bane, you would have to jack the points cost up significantly IMO.

It's not like vendetta/Valkyries are a must take for IG player (costing nearly half the price of a nephilim)

It's not like helldrakes are a must take for any chaos army

It's not like storm raven/talon are a must take for any vanilla/BA/GK player...

Now, we have DA players who are ok to pay the 100 pts of the vendetta + the cost of an IG HQ + the cost of a vets squad just to have an AA answer...

When I see that I don't think a 180pts nephilim with S6 armourbane missiles would be "overpowered"...

Like I've said :

- those missiles would be effect less 50% of the time (pen armour)

- no reroll means 4 of 6 missiles that will indeed hit/battle

- AP4 => no damages table bonus => half of your rolls WON'T give you a destroy result.

- it's still the 2nd most costly flyer of the game.

- the only flyer more expensive has A12 transport capacity, may also transport a dread and has access to more weapons.

- just wait to see the eldar flyer coming next month... 90% chances to be a nightwing with TL bright lances... I can bet it will also be something like 150pts

There's a lot of odds that make me think that 180 for a A11 no transport flyer that requires one of DA's most crucial slot (FAST ATTACK) is not too expensive with 6 armourbane missiles

You just compared a 6th ed unit from a 6th ed book, to a 5th ed unit from a 5th ed codex. Of course stuff in the 5th ed book are not balanced greatly.

lol yes, Storm Raven is a must take and with a SINGLE multi melta it is the price of a Land Raider. . . Make the Nephalim 210-220 pts with the upgrades you think are balanced and it would be a fair price.

CSM players DO take the Heldrake, however it has only ONE gun that serves only ONE role (flame template takes out ground infantry, it has no other role in the game). Also it is the same area in points as your Nephilim, WITH ONE GUN!

Point - If you cannot balance something correctly, do not attempt to change the rules and do it yourself If you want the most broken vehicle in the game and it makes you feel better to run something like that, feel free to cheat all your friends (because I know random folks would not allow this).

Point - If I would like something broken I'd ask for A12 flyer with ceramite plates... Don't need any broken flyer... I already own a Caestus thank you...

Storm Raven 5th ed really? Have you forgotten the Death from the skies Compendium? It's 6th edition and GW profited from it to lower the storm talon's cost. If they really wanted to fix something concerning the Valkyries/Storm Talon etc, don't you think they'd profit from this compendium to do so?

Yeah Helldrakes are fantastic troops killers... But don't forget they have vector strike too... Anyway, Helldrake are supposed to be soul killers and that's what they do pretty well.

On the other hand, Nephilim are supposed to be tank hunters or, at least, flyers hunter and that's not what they do game wise...

So limit the use of the missile against flyer and FMC only if you like but S7 + other special rule (heat seeker/rending/armorbane...) is the minimum for a A11, non transport flyer which costs 180pts...

Ahh, so you think it is okay for a vehicle to fire two one shot missiles a turn that have a 36" range and 2d6 armor pen at str 6 or 7? lol that is by definition broken and if you cannot see that, then you are biased to the point of not really seeing what you would do to a game. Have at it buddy, I am sure with your infinite game design experience you know exactly how it would effect a game.

**Edit** - Yes, they were updated but still have many of the same problems they had before. None of the old flyers will see a complete rework/balance until their codex comes out, as it has always been. There is a reason that the current codexs flyers all seem a tad over priced for what they do, balance. Keep that in mind :P