Deathwing or Grey Knights?

[KnightOfBAAL]

yes i know its biased but i was leaning towards deathwing anyway :D

 

thanks to everyonw whos responded this will be a great help and hopefully ill be competitive.

 

 

And about land raiders which versions should i use because ive read alot of mixed things abvout them and what equip to take on them

[Brother dean]

Land Raider Crusader.  It has a higher transport capacity to fit characters in with a squad and has the same basic range bubble as a Terminator squad and re-rolls on 3 of the 4 weapon systems.

[Vash]

Toe to toe deathwing will destroy grey knights, in 6th edition ap2 is a huge deal, power fist vs nemesis force sword/halberd/falchion power fist wins. Paladins are cool but still get Gib'd by fists we have deathwing knights who will kill the crap out of anything in hand to hand and are pretty cheap to boot.

 You totally forgot about the hammers that Grey Knights can have... and the are by far better than Power fists!

So GK terminators vs Deathwing, GKTs win. Cheaper being the factor here. 

 

Now, given that not all GKTs have hammers. But its not unusual to see around 2 hammers per 5 terminators. 

Grey Knights have S5 storm bolters, and access to one of the better special weapons imo, the psycannon. Its a +1 S assault cannon. 

Force weapons for close combat with all weapon types. So if there are any monstrous creatures, they wont like GTKs at all. A single wound will take him down. Do that with a power fist... 

 

The basic sword is also really nice. It increases the IV save with 1 in close combat. Thus models with swords have 2+/4++ in close combat. That will soak up some power fist attacks. 

 

GKT also have a base 5+ deny the witch save. Also The aegis rule to protect them some more (-1 ld on the psyker who casts a power on them). 

 

A normal GKT unit will contain a mix of close combat weapons, suited to be able to tackle any situation. 

 

Also... GKT are one of the few who can get S10 AP2 hammer attacks, try that power fist. 

 

Grey Knight Terminators x10 (example with hammer hand power)

 

- Justicar with Halberd

- 2x Psycannons (S7 assault cannon)

- 4x Hammers (S10 hammers)

- 4x Swords (4++ IV, S5)

- 1x Halberd (initiative 6 power weapon, S5)

- Psybolt ammunition (S5 storm bolters)

 

Total points: 470 pts

 

 

Deathwing comparison

Deathwing terminators x10 (example)

 

- Sergeant with power sword

- 2x Assault cannon (could change for other weapons of course, took it because its very similar)

- 4 Hammers and storm shield (could skip these, but I wanted to add some better IV saves to compete with the GKTs 4++)

 

Total points: 500 pts

 

 

The Deathwing have split fire, vengeful strike and deathwing assault to their advantage. 

And to trust me, GKT will never intentionally go into close combat with another close combat specialist unless they have taken down their number to a doable size. Goes for everyone really. So don't expect to see a GTK x10 vs DWT x10 match up... 

[Garath]

  Crusader, while a great tank is not the only good option.  If you're doing mechanised Deathwing (and it IS a good idea)  both tanks have their place in a typical list. 

 

  I found Godhammer (2 twin linked Lascannoins ) to be equally useful.   Some of the reasons for it are its anti tank capability and better AV.

 

  Don't want to impose my opinion - but I will say ,from tournament experience with Deathwing that Godhammer is perhaps choice number one for me.

 

  http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tactica_:_LAND_RAIDER!

 

  Take this article as an example- it is for 5th ed...but 90 percent of the things in it still stand

[Brother dean]

    Some of the reasons for it are its anti tank capability and better AV.

What?  Its AV14 for both tanks? 

 

And the Crusaders pack Multi Meltas (well they are extra points now) for close in Anti Tank uses... 

 

Edit:  Having read the article, once getting past the factual errors, the old shooting rules and rose colored glasses, I will still take a specialized tank over a "Jack of all trades, master of none".

[RayJ]

I've run both successfully, so here's my input:

 

Deathwing are better in close combat against 2+ armor. Deathwing are better at shooting the turn they deep strike, and can control when and where they

arrive more easily. Deathwing can obtain the Sacred Standard of Fortitude to spread Feel No Pain to a lot of squads.

 

Grey knights have more built-in buffs and are better in combat vs 3+ armor, and have generally better quality of shooting overall. GK can also buy Paladins for a super-elite feel that doesn't cost a ton of money to get started.

 

Both armies have unique support options, and mixing them around opens up a lot of options for flexibility. I would say a mixed army between GK and DW will be better than one that relies on a single codex, provided you are trying to stick with just terminators and some support pieces. Your HQs will be expensive, and you won't have very many models regardless of which way you go with it.

 

I would look into Mordrak or a Librarian for your GK HQ. Stick with Belial for Deathwing, and I'd probably spend the extra points on Justicar Thrawn in GK for the respawning scoring unit. This will give you two pinpoint accurate deep strike threats. Back it up with a Storm Raven and/or Dreadknight and test it out a bit. I think it can surprise you, though it will take a lot of getting used to, as being so small it has glaring weaknesses vs low-ap weapons.

 

A combination of Termiantors, Land Raiders, Storm Ravens, and Dreadknights will be hard to fit but will be really fun to play.

[elphilo]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the Redeemer. I've been playing with it my past few games and its always been a champ. With Aegis Defense Lines being as popular as they are, the Redeemer helps get around those pesky cover saves. And being AP3 doesn't hurt either

As to which one to take? I'd go with what facmanpob has said. . . .

http://i.imgur.com/vPdRtRz.jpg

[Cactus]

I posed this question to a friend earlier and his unequivocal answer was "Grey Knights". I asked why and he explained that he could construct a Grey Knight terminator force without requiring one of two inflexible named characters (ie Azrael and Belial). This would allow the army to work at smaller points values and under a variety of campaign or tournament restrictions.

[KnightOfBAAL]

so do grey knights have the better shooting ability over deathwing and are still able to perform relatively the same in cc?

 

and which could field more good soldiers if you went pure infantry

[KnightOfBAAL]

I posed this question to a friend earlier and his unequivocal answer was "Grey Knights". I asked why and he explained that he could construct a Grey Knight terminator force without requiring one of two inflexible named characters (ie Azrael and Belial). This would allow the army to work at smaller points values and under a variety of campaign or tournament restrictions.

do some tournaments not allow deathwing armies???

[RayJ]

Grey Knights will definitely work at smaller point values. Redeemers are a decent option for an elite list that wants to combine shooting and close combat (that's how Deathwing works). Both lists have decent builds, but if sticking with pure termiantors (and some vehicle options), both are going to be fairly similar. GK are better at shooting, and in some instances better at CC.

 

Deathwing are designed around utilizing non-terminator options for support. Grey Knights are designed around doing everything themselves, and thus have lots of mid-strength capabilities with a couple high-strength ones to support. Deathwing are superior at taking out 2+ armor and vehicles in close combat, but worse at dealing with chaff. GK vehicles provide better support than DA ones, but the DA army provides more synergistic buffs.

 

If you want to do JUST terminators, GK is slightly better than DA, but a mix lets you cover your bases. The downside is spending 150+ points on an HQ for the GK allies.

[Brother dean]

 

I posed this question to a friend earlier and his unequivocal answer was "Grey Knights". I asked why and he explained that he could construct a Grey Knight terminator force without requiring one of two inflexible named characters (ie Azrael and Belial). This would allow the army to work at smaller points values and under a variety of campaign or tournament restrictions.

do some tournaments not allow deathwing armies???

Some Tournaments do not allow "Special" or "Named" characters.

[Cactus]

 

 

I posed this question to a friend earlier and his unequivocal answer was "Grey Knights". I asked why and he explained that he could construct a Grey Knight terminator force without requiring one of two inflexible named characters (ie Azrael and Belial). This would allow the army to work at smaller points values and under a variety of campaign or tournament restrictions.

do some tournaments not allow deathwing armies???

Some Tournaments do not allow "Special" or "Named" characters.

 

Also doubles events often restrict each player to 1 HQ so the team's combined army fits in the standard FOC. My friend's point was that the Grey Knights offer more flexibility in how the terminator army is constructed and round my way campaign restrictions are more likely to occur than tournament ones. We don't attend many tournaments.

[KnightOfBAAL]

I understand your points and will remember them and to beat grey knights ive watched somw games and it seems best to keep them at a distance then fight it out.

 

ANy ideas on a 1500 point list for dEathwing with all terminators and vehicles to support??

 

ans whats the consensus on dark angel flyers??

[RayJ]

DA fliers are fine if you use Burning the Skies' dogfighting supplement. Without them, they are good vs ground but not air

[KnightOfBAAL]

burning the skies what???

 

so the fliers dont work against ground or other fliers???

[Galthan Ironsturm]

burning the skies what???

 

so the fliers dont work against ground or other fliers???

 

 The add-on : Death from the Skies ! 

 

Actually the DA flyers are strong versus ground infantry, but useless until the others flyers !

[KnightOfBAAL]

so what do deathwing have to fight fliers???

[Chaplain Lucifer]

They have cyclone missile launchers, that can be enhanced by a librarian with prescience... and you can either get an allied detachment to fight the flyers or just ignore the flyers altogether and focus on killing the troops on the ground. 

[march10k]

so what do deathwing have to fight fliers???

 

 

ignore the flyers

 

 

Asked and answered.  The MEQ player's craze about dealing with fliers is 99% attributable to the stupid drakes.  AP3 flamers don't scare deathwing...so just rejoice that he stupidly spent a chunk of points on fliers, obliterate his scoring units, and whistle a happy tune.

 

As for GK versus DW...complicated.  DW will obliterate GK head to head.  Why?  We field 1 AP3 and 4 AP2 weapons per squad (lightning claws?  Yeah, right!) versus their "not unusual to have two hammers" (translation: average is far less than two AP2 weapons per squad).  But head to head isn't really the question, is it?  How are they against third parties?  Well...Knights are an "easy button" that GK don't have...but GK don't require a (expensive, but worth it) special character.  Terminators belong in melee, nothing you do with a stormbolter compares to what you can do with a powerfist (or NFW).  Yet...GK tend to hang back and blaze away with the stormbolters, which is...odd.

 

The final answer probably depends on how you would build and fight each list.  I don't play GK...but I've played DW for 15 years...and DW is really really good at dumping a buttload of pain onto the enemy's back porch and saying "how are you going to react?"  They push the pace and deny the enemy the freedom to execute his own plan.  The traditional counterpoint is that, being so elite, DW suffer from a model count deficit.  Except, in this comparison...that's a wash.  The way I see it is that GK are a reactive force, and DW are a proactive force.  GK will blunder into fewer tactical errors, but they'll also rarely force the enemy into making one.  I'm not sure how it is with GK, but with my DW, it's usually 70% casualties on one side and 90% on the other, win or lose.  More of a slaughterhouse than a chess match where the side that inflicts 12% casualties while suffering only 9% and outmaneuvering the enemy comes out ahead by a hair.  Nope, DW wade in and wreck face, relying on having a single terminator standing alone and unafraid on top of a pile of corpses on the objective at the end of turn 6.  GK, IMHO, dance too much, and kill too little.  They're an epee in a universe that favors sabers.  JMHO, YMMV!

[RayJ]

burning the skies what???

 

so the fliers dont work against ground or other fliers???

 

The rules are available in both the Death from the Skies supplement as well as the Crusade of Fire campaign book. It introduces dogfighting rules, allowing some fliers to fire the same weapon up to 4 times in a single shooting phase depending on traits and choices (and DA are on of the factions that can get a 4th dogfighting phase). There's risk and randomness involved, but the rules make a Nephilim with lascannon a decent option for shooting down other fliers.

 

The supplement also introduces the fighter aces special rules which are 50 point upgrades for your fliers that give them more special rules.

[jeremy1391]

@vash dark angels can also take much cheaper squads of lesser marines so you can DWA with more terminators, normally for each 5 man terminator squad I have there will be a cheap squad on the board to allow me to have a ton of terminators in reserve.

[Garath]

 

    Some of the reasons for it are its anti tank capability and better AV.

What?  Its AV14 for both tanks? 

 

And the Crusaders pack Multi Meltas (well they are extra points now) for close in Anti Tank uses... 

 

Edit:  Having read the article, once getting past the factual errors, the old shooting rules and rose colored glasses, I will still take a specialized tank over a "Jack of all trades, master of none".

 

  Have you really red it?

 

  AV 14 for both tanks, yes.  But crusader HAS to go forward- and it will soon be in range of all available melta out there. Godhammer doesn't. The number of different short ranged/cc  weapons that are good vs AV is much longer then the number of long ranged weapons able to deal with it.

 

  Yes Godhammer is a jack of all trades, master of none.  But a tournament list has to have a unit capable of this.  Twin linked lass cannons are good against various targets.  Heavy bolter provides some anti infantry (nothing to write home about).  

 

   One game you can transport 5 terminators forward (moving 6" let's it fire both lascannons ) to take an objective.  

  Second game it can hang back and take pot shots at things.

  Third game it can start in reserve - if you're playing against a  list containing drop podding troops with melta

 

 

   Crusader can only do thing number one with reasonable success.

 

 

   But overall - I like'em both

 

 

   Back on topic:  Fliers

 

  Mortis Pattern dreadnought: 2 Twin linked lascannons with Skyfire and Interceptor if it stays stationary.  For 165 pts. If that's not a good deal- I don't know what is 

[KnightOfBAAL]

whats a mortis pattern dreadnought??

 

Ill probably have only one land raider at 1500 but id have 2 dreads kitted for shooting and at higher points id definately take 2 raiders or more but i also would like mor eboots on the ground. 

 

and i love the knights models so ill defiantely have 1 squad of those in a land raider 

[Pbenner]

At 1500 points with a unit of DWK, a LR, and two deadnoughts, you're sitting on almost 1/2 your army.  

 

You have room for Belial, and two squads of Deathwing Troops.  

 

You'll have an easy time with KP missions, but you're gonna be hurting on Objectives...

 

I would go with Belial and 4+ units of Deathwing (normal ones) with a dual AC dread and wait until 2K-2500 to do the DWK, LR, and Dreadnoughts (in pairs)

 

Best,

 

Paul