Maximizing the potential of rubric marines, some thoughts...

[Teetengee]

Well, when I play against you, I won't field my Warpsmith, Teeten.

 

I take the sword and the scrolls together because Rule of Cool, so if my opponent refuses to accept that it's fine by raw (it doesn't actually say you can only make that replacement once) then it's not worth fighting with them over.

Fair enough, out of curiousity how often do you use the scrolls in game?

[*Furyou Miko]

Normally every turn while I've got two wounds left. My Warpsmith has a 3+ Invulnerable save, so I'm not too worried about the S4 AP1 hit.

I don't play very often these days though, due to lack of opportunity.

[Teetengee]

Ok that makes sense.

[Dargan]

Hey, I really hate to be that (other) guy but your still wrong Furyou Miko.

 

The artifact thing may be dodgy but theres no chance your Warpsmith has a 3++ save.

Unlike Lords and Sorcerers, Warpsmiths, Dark Apostles & Deamon Princes doesn't have access to the special equipment list that contain the Sigil of Corruption. So, no 4++ (3++ with mark of Tzeentch).

 

The best you can come with is a 4++ (5++ from the aura + mark of Tzeentch) and thats a bit of a gamble with the scrolls and only two wounds to my taste...

 

 

... I may finally be enjoying to be that guy, but just a little...

 

 

Dargan

[*Furyou Miko]

Probably me misremembering, I have a faint memory of griping that he couldn't take one.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Have people's thoughts on rubric squad sizes, and wherever they should be mounted, changed?

[Architect]

8 Rubricae per squad is still the sweet-spot for me. I usually run 3 units and 2 HQs, so I like fitting my HQs in the Rhinos.

 

Anything less than 9 Marines will get chewed up by smart opponents in 2000pt and bigger games because smart opponents will just say "Wow you have an Invulnerable Save? Go ahead and take ___ armor saves for me." They've been saying it for years. : \

 

New/Inexperienced players will just see marines in the open and pound them with ineffective plasma or lascannon fire. Please do that..

 

Biomancy and Telepathy remain the best Disciplines for us to try and take some heat off our marines. If you get Invisibility or Endurance on a big foot-slogging unit of about 13-17 Rubricae, that's nice.. I'd recommend running a unit like that in 2500pts+ or Apocalypse.

[RolandTHTG]

Is Invisibility really that much of a bonus on TS though? You already have a 4++ vs shooting, and you want to be mid-field, so targets shooting at you won't be giving you too much cover to stack the stealth/shrouding  on.

I think a pure-TS army should look at Biomancy almost exclusively, as opposed to the situational bio/'pathy for normal sorcerers.

[Architect]

I believe so.

 

Tsons are most dangerous up-close-and-personal, and yes- we might not be in cover mid-field. Also, I don't subscribe to that nonsense of "if you're a good player, you'll keep your Tsons out of combat". I'll be in assault against average opponents eventually whether I like it or not and when I do, I'd rather have Invisibility over Endurance on Rubricae units of any size. *If* I'm in 5+ cover while the power is active, that's a bonus.. The WS1 is the real winner. Your mileage may vary, as usual.. I just can't make those 5+ FnP rolls, man...

 

If you are lacking cover, get some cultists to screen some Tsons units, or something. Demons can help with this. You can place your cover where you want it, at least to protect you from a unit that is particularly devasting to a vulnerable Rubricae squad (Lootas?). There's a lot of "depends..." with this stuff. I love it. 

[*Furyou Miko]

Pfft. I charge with my thousand sons. Relentless plus force weapons. They're better than tac marines and I face a surprising amount of Tau.

[Architect]

Commendable- If only everyone did so. : ]

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Admitably it was last edition, but a rubric did destroy a black templar dread in close combat (the sorcerer immobilized it with his melta bomb, then failed continuously after).

[Architect]

O.o How?

[*Furyou Miko]

You can hit immobilised walkers on their rear armour.

[RolandTHTG]

I believe so.

 

Tsons are most dangerous up-close-and-personal, and yes- we might not be in cover mid-field. Also, I don't subscribe to that nonsense of "if you're a good player, you'll keep your Tsons out of combat". I'll be in assault against average opponents eventually whether I like it or not and when I do, I'd rather have Invisibility over Endurance on Rubricae units of any size. *If* I'm in 5+ cover while the power is active, that's a bonus.. The WS1 is the real winner. Your mileage may vary, as usual.. I just can't make those 5+ FnP rolls, man...

 

If you are lacking cover, get some cultists to screen some Tsons units, or something. Demons can help with this. You can place your cover where you want it, at least to protect you from a unit that is particularly devasting to a vulnerable Rubricae squad (Lootas?). There's a lot of "depends..." with this stuff. I love it. 

Hmmm, true, true. Definitely something I need to work on.  I just always seem to forget about that WS 1 part unless I am relying on it (Once had a squad of 6 nurglings win an extended combat against a full ork mob + warboss, until the warboss fled with about 4 boyz left) but I never seem to remember vs marines. Wear-as I'm notorious for rolling FNP among a couple of my friends. 

 

Also thinking about more than just TS + buff sorceror, but about the other units that will be operating with the TS.  I think one of the things that makes TS harder to work with is that rather than being pieces that you slot together to build a strategy (i.e. the PM/hellturkey/oblit method - each part is built separately, then you arrange deployment and targets as you see fit based on your opponent, agressive vs IG, castling VS Nids...) you need to develop 'Army Blocks' that your force Functions as ( The TS/Herald/Horrors block mentioned on the first page, or the cultist/TS/Invis/sorceror block you mentioned).

This is actually much closer to the way I design my IG lists, putting together complementary units that will be mutually supportive on a mission. My IG lists, for example, have a Castling/Objective Holding block (Blob squad, Company command for orders, meltavets for deathstar intercepting), a Flank/Objective Taking Block (Plasmavets, platoon command w/Grenadelaunchers, Hellhound, all in Chimeras for mobility) and a Firepower/Anti-Tank block (Leman russes, Basilisk, Marbo, and Deepstriking Melta Stormtroopers ). Units from these blocks may not always be deployed together, but their game missions will always be coordinated with the rest of their block before looking at the state of the rest of the army, if I can explain my mental concepts clearly.

 

The Idea of not only fielding the army in a comprehensive plan, but DESIGNING it that way, something stronger than a theme(CCW or Shooty) or just adding units to fill in weak spots (need anti-tank, add oblit!) is something I don't really think I had applied to my chaos before, relying on my 3+ to cover up some gaps.  This conversation has definitely giving me much to consider for my list-building, so I thank all the participants.

[Architect]

I think most serious Tsons players have evolved into thinking on a larger scale than just "Do I have the most competitive anti-infantry/anti-tank choices in my list?" and have finally reached a happy point of "I really like these models so I want to find the best way to use them with skill". 

 

*Pets cat in lap*

 

Excellent.....

 

Excellent.....

 

Oh, to Furyou- Yes, you're right. Thanks for reminding me. I admit that I may be using my Screamers as a crutch to save me from walkers lately.

[Xenith]

Don't forget than endurance provides the FnP, which may just save your Aspiring sorcerer's ass when he perils's.

 

I also have found 8 rubricae to be an ok number. Fewer than that get killed too quickly, many more and they shoot up the threat ladder and get forced to make armour saves - that's why I prefer the endurance route, as it protects against small arms fire.

 

But then I'm reasonable at making FnP rolls...

[Excessus]

Don't forget than endurance provides the FnP, which may just save your Aspiring sorcerer's ass when he perils's.

 

This!

[Tenebris]

On average the Thousand Sons are MEQ killers and quite good at that so this is their primary role in my battle lines. I have two diverging ways to field them, the classic 9 TSons in a Rhino or since I have the models a big block of 20 TSons on foot. Both have their problems and their advantages. The Rhino squads are more versatile, can easily move around and allow me to add some speed to an otherwise slow army, on the bad side, it is almost always First Blood and once you are out of the metal boxes you are usually in the teeth with the enemy which can be useful for the bolter range but those who know the Tsons would rather charge them since they cannot Overwatch.

 

The advantages of the big block have been expressed above quite in detail, cheaper Aspiring Champion tax, resilience, good escort unit for Ahriman and a bonus with Master of Deception. All is good and well but we are looking at a steep price in points and a very powerful squad that can do only a single thing, shoot, and shoot MEQ. Everything non MEQ would have a field day against such an unit. 

 

How to make the Thousand Sons work? Well add in there a Sorcerer is a good option, even if he is naked, perhaps adding the support in the form of Obliterators works well too, but the main problem that I have with the Sons is that they lack the means to deal with vehicles and other high toughness targets. Sure one can melee them but I prefer to pop the enemy vehicles from far an than unload a ton of Inferno Bolts on the sweet contents that came out from the crater. 

 

I think that the Thousand Sons armies thus should include a very strong following of daemons, perhaps a Lord of Change with the Portal, to keep a steady stream of daemons to bolster our numbers and a strong unit of Screamers to deal with our nemesis, the enemy armour. 

 

All in all I think that a squad of 20 Thousand Sons with Ahriman in there is a good building block for every Tzeentch army. Supported by cheap cultists to cap our objectives, all integrated with MSU Chosen with Plasma Guns to benefit even more from Ahriman's warlord trait. Add the mandatory Helldrake and load with daemons and it should work...I hope.