montegue Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 Ok. I was cruising along today at a local tournament until I came across this grade a cheese. Demon Lord, three demon princes, tons of special perks... ugh. Ran me off the Board completely by turn three. They were level 3 psykers, buffing themselves three times per turn. Turn one they hid behind his cover fora 2+ cover save due to MoN. By turn they were all in combat, and you can imagine how that went. Even my fully tuned thunderlord got owned. What in the hell are we supposed to do with crap like that? Concentrated bolter fire did nothing. Any wound I did was heals through IWND or lifeless. Las and missile fire barely made a scratch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Father Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 I played a team close to this today as well. He ended up wining the whole thing tournment. I was using Grey Knights and not knowing much about his army I got smashed. His team was the following: HQ - Bloodthirster and Kairos Fateweaver H - Daemon Prince x 3 T - Bloodletters of Khorne x 2 lvl 3 Psykers everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulf Vengis Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 Njal and rune priests perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khine Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 Yeah, our runic weapons make them more manageable. They aren't bad at all if they can't cast iron arm for example.Keep yourself in cover so when they do get in combat (which they will) you get to strike first. A runic weapons to the face of a Daemon prince with no eternal warrior is as good as a carcass. Hurray for always hit on 3+s and wounding daemons on 2+ with Ap 3. "Where is your T8 now huh cheesy?!"As much as you may want to focus fire, DON'T. Soften them do evenly so that one squad only has to deal with one wound while two other squads have to deal with full wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montegue Posted May 26, 2013 Author Share Posted May 26, 2013 They just fly behind cover. They strike at init 9, and murder an entire unit of Marines (including any rune priest you might have, which cannot take an Invul save) every turn. This list is absolutely beyond broken. Runic staff has to wound (S+2? Normal Str?) and you need the free warp charge to use it. Furthermore, all he needs to do is challenge, and your Rune Priest either dies in the challenge or can't fight. We have one option for skyfire, the Quad Gun on the ADL. So, while they are flying, you might get lucky with bolter fire and a crash test, and then you can open up with everything you have. If you are very, very lucky, you might kill one Demon prince. There are still two to go, plus the Greater Deamon, and any *one* of those models can completely wipe us off the map. So frustrating. I'm trying to find an all comers list that can take both this ridiculous cheese ball list and Tau, and I'm struggling. It needs to be able to ignore cover with a powerful shooting phase on turn one, if you're lucky enough to go first. Not sure what we have that can do it in our codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khine Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 They just fly behind cover. They strike at init 9, and murder an entire unit of Marines (including any rune priest you might have, which cannot take an Invul save) every turn. This list is absolutely beyond broken. Runic staff has to wound (S+2? Normal Str?) and you need the free warp charge to use it. Furthermore, all he needs to do is challenge, and your Rune Priest either dies in the challenge or can't fight. We have one option for skyfire, the Quad Gun on the ADL. So, while they are flying, you might get lucky with bolter fire and a crash test, and then you can open up with everything you have. If you are very, very lucky, you might kill one Demon prince. There are still two to go, plus the Greater Deamon, and any *one* of those models can completely wipe us off the map. So frustrating. I'm trying to find an all comers list that can take both this ridiculous cheese ball list and Tau, and I'm struggling. It needs to be able to ignore cover with a powerful shooting phase on turn one, if you're lucky enough to go first. Not sure what we have that can do it in our codex. Area terrain is your friend here Or having your defence line in an enclosed ring. Both will force him down to striking last. Rune staff will wound the Daemons on 2+, it doesn't matter what strength the runepriest is at. If you know he is going to be in charge range next turn, just don't cast a power, unless you have two charges. It's better to have the chance to one shot him than whatever else you could manage with that charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montegue Posted May 26, 2013 Author Share Posted May 26, 2013 Rune staff wounds on a 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khine Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 Rune staff wounds on a 2? Only on Daemons. All runic weapons do. Look at your rulebook on the runepriest page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montegue Posted May 26, 2013 Author Share Posted May 26, 2013 Huh. Good to know. Clearly I missed that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherCaptainArkhan Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 Space Wolves are hypothetically the bane of flying circus armies. I tabled a flying circus a month ago or so (about 1000 points I think) with a list that was roughly: Rune Priest 3 squads Grey Hunters 2 squads Long Fangs (one all-missile, the other 3 heavy bolters/2 lascannons) think I had a Vindicator as well... The Vindicator and Hunters ate the opposing force's troops choices relatively easily. With the LF squads, the weight of fire of the heavy bolters managed to ground a Daemon Prince on turn 1 which was then wounded by a lucky lascannon shot (and subsequently killed same turn by missile fire). The Rune Priest was deployed forward enough to make use of the 24" psychic power denial radius, and succeeded in denying most of the enemy's Iron Arm rolls. I was lucky to have cover on my side and some good rolls to hit, but the combination of Prescience/high volume of fire/denial of enemy psychic powers was enough to kill a Lord of Change on turn 2. In retrospect, I did have some very good rolls so maybe take this with a grain of salt, but a list with three squads of Long Fangs and at least two Rune Priests (maybe even add Njal) should be hell for a flying circus. An Aegis with quad-gun is not a terrible choice either, and the above is relatively strong against all comers (haven't played against Tau yet though). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schertenleib Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 As I understand it the 24" Psychic Power denial doesn't function on Daemons as they don't have to roll a Perils Test. If I'm wrong on this PLEASE let me know. This is how it was explained to me and I'm constantly being eaten by Chaos Daemons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Father Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 As I understand it the 24" Psychic Power denial doesn't function on Daemons as they don't have to roll a Perils Test. If I'm wrong on this PLEASE let me know. This is how it was explained to me and I'm constantly being eaten by Chaos Daemons. When I played two games the other day vs Daemons, both players rolled two sixes on pysic rolls and took a Perils Wound (though one used feel no pain to get out of it). I believe The Rune Preist Staff should effect them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 As I understand it the 24" Psychic Power denial doesn't function on Daemons as they don't have to roll a Perils Test. If I'm wrong on this PLEASE let me know. This is how it was explained to me and I'm constantly being eaten by Chaos Daemons. In the old codex that might have been true, but not with the new daemons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khine Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 As I understand it the 24" Psychic Power denial doesn't function on Daemons as they don't have to roll a Perils Test. If I'm wrong on this PLEASE let me know. This is how it was explained to me and I'm constantly being eaten by Chaos Daemons. In the old codex that might have been true, but not with the new daemons. I had to check this as well to be sir cause that seemed a little far fetched. Someone has been either not very good at learning their new codex .. or just decided they didn't like the new rule. Either way, moral victory for you Schertenleib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montegue Posted May 28, 2013 Author Share Posted May 28, 2013 Thinking about the Rune Priest - there's no way a single rune priest can kill a Demon prince. You need at least two. If the Demon Prince gets into combat, he challenges. If you refuse, the Rune Priest can't fight. If you accept, the Demon Prince kills you before you swing on initiative 9. Warp speed won't make you faster than them. There's literally no way to beat it. It will hit you 4-6 times, it wounds on 2s, you have no Invul, and it re rolls to wound. Rune Priest dies. Only way to do it is to have two Rune Priests in the same combat, hidden behind a wall of 10 Grey Hunters. He challenges, you refuse, he sends one of the two to the back of the bus. Hopefully, the other Rune Priest can hit, wound, and get past his Invul. You can have all the Instant Death and wounding on 2+ you want, but if you're paste on Init 9 you may as well be a tau with a plastic spoon fork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Not true montage You could could have your rune priest in combat but not able to accept the challenge due to not being engaged then move in at your I and cut him down this actually happened to me Also tda gives you an invulnerable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montegue Posted May 28, 2013 Author Share Posted May 28, 2013 Challenges don't pull you in from the back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Or as mentioned, you take the daemon assault while in cover thus killing his initiative. He can challenge if he wants, but will be cut down before he gets to strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 You can only issue and accept challenges if engaged (within 2" of model in b2b) But the pile in move is 3" So you can be out range when challenges occur but able to attack at your initiative especially as your opponent will pile in as well This is easier with units with large number of models or large bases where you position them to block the model you want out of range If you Plan it well you can single out the model you want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Deathwolf Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 I thought that with challenges you can move the models so that they are in contact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 You do jarl But you must be first engaged to issue or accept a challenge If you can't issue or accept the challenge. You can't be moved to b2b by the challenge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 Brb p64 characters which cannot fight or strike blows(including those not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges. Brb p64 characters which cannot fight or strike blows(including those not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 Good luck with that placement of models, with random charge range and all that ist hard to make sure your models are placed like that Receiving would be less hard but still isn't a guaranty, if he kills one model to many in shooting the plan goes up in smoke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 Still, its something to try atleast. I find its best to ground them, then pound them hard with missiles. Make sure youve got as much of a killing field in front of you as possible.... GHs to ground, LFs to kill, and if that isnt working out for you.... landspeeders to chase them down/be fast enough to avoid getting caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 It works surprising often mainly due to the distribution of results on a 2d6 being heavy biased towards the middle with your opponent piling in 3". And you piling in 3" It's is also very useful for wolf guard pack leaders and Twl wanting to avoid challenges yet still want to fight especially i1 models I find With twc/twl getting a reroll on the charge distance this can also be used to get a more productive result as well. For example I need a 6-9 result on the charge to allow the positioning I need and get a 5 on one dice I can reroll the second dice with assurance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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