The Sons of Cruor - a Blood Angel successor.

[Malthe]

Yellow and red would be awsome!

It's hell to paint, but damn does it look nice. Just look at the Howling Griffons.

 

I really like that inverted Flesh Tearers scheme too, though. Might steal it for my Foe Eaters if I ever get around to redo them :)

 

Thumps up on crafting a nasty BA successor, there are - oddly enough - too few of them.

 

  Quote

 

Three: The training Cadre sends word that they are going to return to the Flesh Tearers. Instead, they are told that under no circumstances are they to return. Reluctantly, they heed this decree, and impart their own Chapters' fate. I'm thinking that if I go with this, that the visions should start either around the same time or not long after.

 

I thought this idea was interesting.

The Flesh Tearers might be problematic as a training cadre, but that could probably be explained or worked around.

Going with this option opens up a lot of routes for internal conflict - which seem to be the A&O of your concept - as well as some delicious mystery.

Why are they forbidden to return - do their old brothers in the Flesh Tearers distrust them, despise them for leaving during the chapter's time of need, or is it simply because Seth have decided to go out with a bang? That's a lot of room for doubt, which can be a great motor.

 

Now if they start having strange vision around the same time that's even better. Is Sanguinius trying to save them, or is some malignant entity trying to corrupt them?

You don't even have to decide - just hint at both options and let your readers wonder.

[Mogsam]

I think that a chapter where a couple of marines have gone through the curse and stalled would be quite a nice quirk. Rather than have them froth at the mouth and re-live only Sangs last moments they instead live a few months earlier when he isn't so close to death and carry on their normal lives but convinced they exist in the wrong time. 

 

It would make a different play on the same theme and also remove the need to have them be maniacs.

[Aqui]

  On 5/28/2013 at 3:20 AM, Octavulg said:

Nice. Though yellow and black or yellow and red would seem more unique.

I'm not doing yellow and black! Otherwise, I'd have to do a Chapter called the [insert adjective] bees or some such

However:

I still prefer the red/black to be honest as the above reminds me of the aforementioned Howling Griffons.

I'm still working on the direction I want to take them. Hopefully, I'll have something to post soon.

[Conn Eremon]

Blood Bees! For the Emperor-Bee! They communicate through interpretive dance! I don't know anything else about bees to joke about!

 

I agree, it looks too much like the Howling Griffins. I'd go with the Red/Black as well. We need one anyway to break up the long line of DIYs that never use red/black. Like ever.

[Aqui]

I've come up with a little story to try to set the overall "theme" or feel for the Chapter. Not sure if I've succeeded, but it was quite fun to come up with anyway

Edit: Original version of the short:

  Reveal hidden contents

The screaming carried down the corridor, so much so, that the Great Door was ordered shut. High Sanguinary Priest [insert name] was in no mood to be trifled with, the noise of those screams were as the sharpest of nails to a blackboard. Heretics were known to crumble in the face of His judgement, but the cries for help were in no way made by such a vile creature. His surprise was evident when he realised what the source of those screams were.

The Marine had no distinguishing record, although he was as diligent and dedicated to the Chapter as any other. Lying there in the reinforced cot, he was shackled down, his body racked with spasmodic motion, unable to remain in repose. The unfortunate had been raving for hours, the Chaplains monitoring every word to ensure that no Heresy was spoken in that hallowed hall. Whilst the Marine had not blasphemed, his words had brought other things to the fore. Things that had been on the minds of every one of them for years, in some cases longer. No one had dared say aloud what they dreamt, for it seemed heretical to do so. But the longer this solitary Son screamed and raved, the more everyone who heard those words wanted to join him.

It was both a release from obligation and a darker, heavier burden simultaneously.

The High Priest's ire was raised when he saw the Marine now. The cot shuddered violently, the structure groaning under the prolonged assault. The Marine looked in his direction now, his eyes were balls of obsidian, his teeth bared, long and sharp as a canine. His skin was pallid, slick with sweat and his expression was vacant, those rough lips lolling. Before his very eyes, the look upon those features were changing, from the psychotic, snarling man beast to something that would chill even the Chapter Master himself.

The Chaplains were wary, and stood back from the cot, their hooded robes preventing onlookers from seeing more. Suddenly, the Marine stopped, his eyes closed, the roaring of an angry deity silenced. The quiet was deafening, everyone able to hear their own pulse in their ears.

The lead Chaplain approached the cot slowly, standing so that the unfortunate could see him clearly.

"Whom do we address?" The stricken remained silent.

"I repeat. Whom do we address?"

Those eyes snapped open, clear as spring water and deeper than oceans. They searched for the owner of the voice and found them.

"Whom do we address?"

"You are talking to someone who has quenched their thirst, and tempered their rage." The Marine said simply. "He showed me how to rise above our Curse."

"He?"

"Yes. Our Father, the origin of our gene-line. The beatific Angel. The Emperor's conscience.

"Sanguinius himself."

The High Priest closed his eyes. Another one. Another who has managed to quell the darkness in their hearts. Of the countless tens of thousands over ten Millenia only two have managed it, the only other known Son of Sanguinius to do so was Mephiston himself. It was both momentous and terrifying. What horrors have they both endured to do so? Is it truly possible?

If so, was it worth the risk to find out?

The revamped ( ) version:

  Reveal hidden contents

The screaming carried down the corridor, so much so, that the Great Door had been ordered shut. High Sanguinary Priest Placo was in no mood to be trifled with, the noise of those screams were as the sharpest of nails to a blackboard. Heretics were known to crumble in the face of His judgement, but the cries for help were in no way made by such a vile creature. His surprise was evident when he realised what the source of those screams were.

The Marine had no especially distinguishing record, although he was as diligent and dedicated to the Chapter as any other. Lying there in the reinforced cot, he was shackled down, his body wracked with spasmodic motion, unable to remain in repose. The unfortunate had been raving for hours, the Chaplains monitoring and recording every word to ensure that no Heresy was spoken in that hallowed hall. Whilst the Marine had not blasphemed, his words had brought other things to the fore. Things that had been on the minds of every one of them for years, in some cases longer. No one had dared say aloud what they dreamt, for it seemed heretical...a blasphemy, to do so. But the longer this solitary Son screamed and raved, the more everyone who heard his words wanted to join him, the urge was so great.

It was both a release from obligation, and a darker, heavier burden simultaneously.

The High Priest's ire was raised when he saw the Marine now. The cot shuddered violently, the structure groaning under the prolonged assault. The Marine looked in his direction now, his eyes were manic, both pleading for release and desperate for violence, his teeth bared, snapping open and shut trying to articulate a feeling that cannot be expressed. Before his very eyes, the look upon those features were changing, from the psychotic, snarling man beast to something that would chill the blood of even the Chapter Master himself.

The Chaplains were wary, and stood back from the cot, their hooded robes preventing onlookers from seeing more. Suddenly, the Marine stopped, his eyes closed, the roaring of an angry deity silenced. The quiet was deafening, everyone able to hear their own pulse in their ears.

The lead Chaplain approached the cot slowly, standing so that the unfortunate could see him clearly.

"Whom do we address?" The stricken remained silent.

"I repeat. Whom do we address?"

Those eyes snapped open, clear as spring water and deeper than oceans. They searched for the owner of the voice and found them.

"Whom do we address?"

"I survive! He..he saved me! The Angel! Oh, but to be carried away by him! Even now, he teaches! He...he.." the Marine falls silent, his strength sapped by the effort of trying to explain.

The High Priest closed his eyes. Another one? Is it possible? Only one has managed it. The only known Son of Sanguinius to do so was Mephiston himself. It was both a momentous occasion and terrifying. What horrors did the Lord of Death have to endure to do so? Is it truly possible? Or did the stricken Marine leave one kind of madness, only to fall victim to another?

Was it worth the risk to find out?

[Mogsam]

It's good. Though personally i'd change the ending and tone down the vampireish like physical qualities.

 

When he asks who the marine is I actually think it would be a stronger statement if he just repeats his name. The curse turns them into madmen and just the ability to rationally respond with his actual name - that's a strong statement. Similarly i'd have him be very, very relieved at the fact that he's come back as that would bring both amazement and power to his response. 

[Aqui]

  On 5/29/2013 at 5:18 PM, Mogsam said:

It's good. Though personally i'd change the ending and tone down the vampireish like physical qualities.

I thought I'd avoided the "Vampire" motive Oh well, I'll have another run through and try to weed it out

  Quote

When he asks who the marine is I actually think it would be a stronger statement if he just repeats his name. The curse turns them into madmen and just the ability to rationally respond with his actual name - that's a strong statement. Similarly i'd have him be very, very relieved at the fact that he's come back as that would bring both amazement and power to his response.

I thought that as well, but as I don't have a name just yet, it loses it's punch. I want to find a theme for the Chapter (for example - Imperial Fists are "Prussian", Ultras are Grecco-Roman et al et al), and have the names of major characters within the Chapter tie in with it.

Those points aside, does the short put the point I'm trying to make across? If it doesn't, which parts fail?

Thanks for the input in any case

[Conn Eremon]

Sounds like you are going for a purified Blood Angels successor, even if we're only catching it in progress. Personally, I'd like it if you upped the darker side to this. Like a description of their savior that is subtly different from Sanguinius. "Dark of hair and black of eye he came to me, whispering."

 

There is a webcomic out there depicting soldiers fighting a meaningless war in a city they can't escape. One soldier yells to the others that he has found a way out of the city. As everyone else gets excited over the proclamation, the soldier flips around his rifle and shoots himself in the head. That soldier is how I saw the original ideas for this Chapter. Hey, fellow sons of Sanguinius, I've found a way to be free of our curse! By giving in to it. Though not suicidal, it is nonetheless an extremely risky and dark endeavor.

 

Could be I just misinterpreted what you meant, but damn I thought that was awesome.

[Aqui]

  On 5/29/2013 at 5:33 PM, Cormac Airt said:

Sounds like you are going for a purified Blood Angels successor, even if we're only catching it in progress. Personally, I'd like it if you upped the darker side to this. Like a description of their savior that is subtly different from Sanguinius. "Dark of hair and black of eye he came to me, whispering."

There is a webcomic out there depicting soldiers fighting a meaningless war in a city they can't escape. One soldier yells to the others that he has found a way out of the city. As everyone else gets excited over the proclamation, the soldier flips around his rifle and shoots himself in the head. That soldier is how I saw the original ideas for this Chapter. Hey, fellow sons of Sanguinius, I've found a way to be free of our curse! By giving in to it. Though not suicidal, it is nonetheless an extremely risky and dark endeavor.

Could be I just misinterpreted what you meant, but damn I thought that was awesome.

I think I've confused a few people by what I've posted You are right, that is kinda how I wanted to do it. But it seems I've confused matters and wanted to have a Chapter who feels that they have been given a sign by Sanguinius "Don't hold it back. Embrace it and punch through the rage and thirst back to sanity." But the short I posted above might have caused some misunderstanding (which will be more my fault for failing to clarify). The short is a quick snippet of the moments when the one Marine who goes through the Rage and Thirst and survives in any sane state comes to be. He then goes on to tell everyone else. The Chapter as a whole is unsure by the whole thing - after all, if it was that easy (and when I say easy, actually not that much, but easier than say storming the Imperial Palace with nothing more than a cocktail stick), then every Tom, dick and Harry would be doing it. This causes a massive split within the Chapter - those who embrace the teachings and those who think it's a load of bunkum.

I'm still trying to work out how to present this. I'm also trying to work out how to present how it is that if the Chapter is "more or less) agreed that it IS the way to go, that they haven't just gone ahead and done it? Why hasn't the Chapter deliberately induced the Rage/Thirst colectively and gone for it?

It seemed easy enough to start off with, but now (as usual) I'm over thinking things and put a massive downer on everything.

Feth I think I may need to wipe everything and start again.

[Conn Eremon]

I don't think you've deviated very far from my original interpretation, just seemed enough for me to take notice. If you darken that piece up a bit, throw some more doubt on what we are seeing happen, I think it can still work. Make us believe it's not true but hope that it may be. But reading your last post, I'm sure that my original take on your ideas was valid. I am rather interested to see where you take this.

[Aqui]

I've edited the post with the short in, and have included both the original and the new one in spoilers tags to reduce the size of the post.

Hopefully, the new version will be better

[Mogsam]

I think the trouble is that you have to write around the main tenant of the Blood Angels story - that they're flawed tragically. If someone survives the curse then the entire chapter would risk everything to find out why. It's basically solving their biggest problem! By having them survive it makes it hard to move any further really since they have nothing to aspire to. 

 

It might be worth having them not completely pass through to give them that sense of uncertainty and desperation back.

[Aqui]

  On 5/29/2013 at 9:23 PM, Mogsam said:

I think the trouble is that you have to write around the main tenant of the Blood Angels story - that they're flawed tragically. If someone survives the curse then the entire chapter would risk everything to find out why. It's basically solving their biggest problem! By having them survive it makes it hard to move any further really since they have nothing to aspire to.

It might be worth having them not completely pass through to give them that sense of uncertainty and desperation back.

In the last edit, I did try to imply that the Marine might have swapped one type of madness for another. He might not be baying for blood or wanting to tear another to pieces, but the madness might/is/maybe still there. Perhaps the Chapter feels that after this event, it's worth the attempt, but that Marine might be a fluke and when the massed attempt is made...well, who knows what might actually happen

Seems that I still have a way to travel after all...

[deathspectersgt7]

Well brother to tell you the truth I liked the first better.

[Conn Eremon]

I on the other like the new edit. Bit more character.

[Malthe]

I'd suggest to lessen the emphasis on the who and how of the first marine whom this happened to. Wow, ugly sentence... you catch my drift.

 

Two reasons:

1. It saves you from having to detail the exact events of how this cure/curse happened, which will be quite hard to do.

 

2. It allows your readers to engage the problem form the same perspective your chapter is engaging it, mid-decision. This in turn means that you are free to focus on the consequences, which are all together more interesting that the reason. In medias res ftw!

 

Throw together a grim story of the High Priest giving his blessing (or whatever) to the 117th battle brother who've given in to his rage. That will have given him some time to reflect on the issue, maybe form a few theories and be really desperate for the chapter council to reach a decision. That's alot more fun to hear about than his initial shock.

 

Also it sharpens the issue. What to do with one marine who've given into his curse and come through to the other side is, after all, not that big a deal. It's shocking, but you'll have plenty of time to consider your options. What to do with a hundred - and more comming - is an entirely different beast!

[Lysimachus]

It's definitely a cool idea, but it does pose some problems.

Firstly, this is for the 27th Founding, yes? Which as I understand it is happening now in the 40k timeline? Surely any Chapter is literally in the early stages of building up, recruiting, etc? They seem more established at the moment, when are you setting this? Could be a few centuries even further on?

I can see the idea working though, especially if it happens after Mephiston's transformation. You could have it that it's happened to one battle brother and he's survived, then several more brave/impulsive brethren have copied him and tried and died horribly, broken by the Black Rage. Now the Chapter doesn't know what to do; it seems to have worked for brother A, but not brothers B, C, and D. Not good odds, but if they can make it work....

Then hint at brother A being not quite right and bring in the idea of even if it works it's just another kind of nuts.

On the scheme, yellow and red could work but I think you need a really dark red to make the contrast work. Actually, really dark red halved with gold would be very nice.

[Aqui]

  On 5/29/2013 at 11:13 PM, Malthe said:

I'd suggest to lessen the emphasis on the who and how of the first marine whom this happened to. Wow, ugly sentence... you catch my drift.

Two reasons:

1. It saves you from having to detail the exact events of how this cure/curse happened, which will be quite hard to do.

2. It allows your readers to engage the problem form the same perspective your chapter is engaging it, mid-decision. This in turn means that you are free to focus on the consequences, which are all together more interesting that the reason. In medias res ftw!

Throw together a grim story of the High Priest giving his blessing (or whatever) to the 117th battle brother who've given in to his rage. That will have given him some time to reflect on the issue, maybe form a few theories and be really desperate for the chapter council to reach a decision. That's alot more fun to hear about than his initial shock.

Also it sharpens the issue. What to do with one marine who've given into his curse and come through to the other side is, after all, not that big a deal. It's shocking, but you'll have plenty of time to consider your options. What to do with a hundred - and more comming - is an entirely different beast!

  On 5/30/2013 at 6:43 AM, Strike Captain Lysimachus said:

It's definitely a cool idea, but it does pose some problems.

Firstly, this is for the 27th Founding, yes? Which as I understand it is happening now in the 40k timeline? Surely any Chapter is literally in the early stages of building up, recruiting, etc? They seem more established at the moment, when are you setting this? Could be a few centuries even further on?

I can see the idea working though, especially if it happens after Mephiston's transformation. You could have it that it's happened to one battle brother and he's survived, then several more brave/impulsive brethren have copied him and tried and died horribly, broken by the Black Rage. Now the Chapter doesn't know what to do; it seems to have worked for brother A, but not brothers B, C, and D. Not good odds, but if they can make it work....

Then hint at brother A being not quite right and bring in the idea of even if it works it's just another kind of nuts.

On the scheme, yellow and red could work but I think you need a really dark red to make the contrast work. Actually, really dark red halved with gold would be very nice.

Some really good points and ideas here. I've been thinking about the fact that the Chapter is part of the (Fictional within the fiction) 27th Founding, and to have the Chapter as being "well established" is silly and illogical. The points about making the whole story about the one Marine who seems to get through the Rage unscathed are also good ones.

The colour scheme offered is also very cool, but despite the fact that I love yellow Marines, I hate painting yellow and part of the Challenge is to show at least one Marine painted in said colours. I may have to practice on spare bitz and see what if I can get better at it.

I'll do another brainstorming session over the next few days and see what I can come up with. I think my main problem is that I'm concentrating on the whole concept too much. I tend to do better when I'm doing something else and then *BAM!* I find what I'm looking for.

That said, I might actually take this out of the Twenty-seventh Founding altogether and put it in an older one so I'm not so constrained. If I do this, hopefully it'll be easier to click the ideas floating around into something that makes sense.

Thanks again to everyone who has commented or had a look. Greatly appreciated!

[Ravenfeld]

A lot of work getting through all the comments to here, I glazed over the last few just because I wanted to get to my own response, so if it seems repetitive I apologize in advance.

 

My initial impression was that you wanted to make a Chapter of Mephistons, which is terrifying and would be difficult to convey on the table top, haha! I mean it is one of the distinguishing factors that make the character unique. That being said, if he can do it... why can't the rest of Sanguinius' children? So in principle I actually really like this idea and think it is a fresh and unique angle to attack a BA successor.

 

In terms of colouration:

 

• I think that red and yellow strikes me as too Howling Griffons
• I think that red and black is over done
• I think flat red is over done
• I think that black and yellow can look sharp as all hell if done right, but not for these guys.
• Blue, however, is an interesting prospect. Blue and Red even more so. Think about it, both colours represent the the blood in the human body.. red from the heart, blue returning to the heart. I think it would make perfect sense, a deep dark red with a deep dark blue. Kind of akin to the crimson fists just with a lot more red. Could even use the heart motif in your chapter badge... more realistic and less animated heart though.. with valves and stuff... yeah.

I really like the ideas you have rolling but I agree with Cormac in terms of it being more dark. I like darkness and the 40k universe is rife with it. Forget hope, hope if overrated! Moar, Moar darkness!

[Aqui]

  On 5/31/2013 at 6:15 PM, Ravenfeld said:

A lot of work getting through all the comments to here, I glazed over the last few just because I wanted to get to my own response, so if it seems repetitive I apologize in advance.

My initial impression was that you wanted to make a Chapter of Mephistons, which is terrifying and would be difficult to convey on the table top, haha! I mean it is one of the distinguishing factors that make the character unique. That being said, if he can do it... why can't the rest of Sanguinius' children? So in principle I actually really like this idea and think it is a fresh and unique angle to attack a BA successor.

In terms of colouration:

• I think that red and yellow strikes me as too Howling Griffons
• I think that red and black is over done
• I think flat red is over done
• I think that black and yellow can look sharp as all hell if done right, but not for these guys.
• Blue, however, is an interesting prospect. Blue and Red even more so. Think about it, both colours represent the the blood in the human body.. red from the heart, blue returning to the heart. I think it would make perfect sense, a deep dark red with a deep dark blue. Kind of akin to the crimson fists just with a lot more red. Could even use the heart motif in your chapter badge... more realistic and less animated heart though.. with valves and stuff... yeah.

I really like the ideas you have rolling but I agree with Cormac in terms of it being more dark. I like darkness and the 40k universe is rife with it. Forget hope, hope if overrated! Moar, Moar darkness!

Thanks for the response!

To clarify, the idea around this Chapter is that they collectively aspire to accomplish what Mephiston has done - to beat the Black Rage and Red Thirst. As you said "If he can do it...", but, if one was to skip ahead to the "future" of the Chapter, it won't happen. Many will have tried, most, if not all will have failed, and end their existence on the battlefield screaming at the enemy, reliving the last moments of Sanguinius (if they're lucky - I'm toying with something that is an even worse fate, but I'm still at an early stage with it). Besides the first Marine (who I'm considering to have portrayed as a Chapter myth), I'm of an opinion that no others should do it. That Marines specific fate is uncertain at present, but although he seemed as cogent as he was before his affliction, I want to put something in his character traits that indicated (subtly or otherwise) that he also failed. Not sure how that will turn out yet.

I'm also tinkering with the idea that, like many BA successors, they are greatly reduced in numbers due to the fact that many have given themselves wholly to the idea of accepting the curse, in the unbendable belief that they will free themselves of it. It's embrace and subsequent devastating effects mean that they will most likely never reach full Chapter status.

The Chapter heraldry idea - Whoa! Very novel idea I'll have to do a few practice runs to see if I can paint it in such a way that I can paint them en-masse. Either that or I could paint one similar to the Lamenters but have it blue and use a different shade of blue for the armour (see below).

The Chapter colours, yeah red and black are over used, yellow and yellow/black is hard to do well without them looking like a bumblebee I did consider blue from the start, but as I wanted a Librarian or two, I rejected it. However, if I can find the right shade, then it might work out quite well. Perhaps a shade of blue one turns if they are cold, or have a heart condition. I'll have to have a go on the painter tomorrow.

Again, thanks to everyone who's posted. Much appreciated!

[Conn Eremon]

What if the mythical Marine was old? Not BA old, just a "holy hell, he's been in the death company how long?"

 

So the Chapter thinks that maybe, just maybe, they have to push through it. Survive the Black Rage and burst through. But surviving it is hard. You can't detain them, you can't control them. You can't protect them. You can only hope. So far, none have survived long enough. Or maybe they have, nobody remembers much detail of how long that Marine had endured. They shift and change according to the telling. So maybe they are survived long enough, longer than this Marine, and the hope is a false one.

 

Just a thought.

[Aqui]

  On 5/31/2013 at 9:16 PM, Cormac Airt said:

What if the mythical Marine was old? Not BA old, just a "holy hell, he's been in the death company how long?"

So the Chapter thinks that maybe, just maybe, they have to push through it. Survive the Black Rage and burst through. But surviving it is hard. You can't detain them, you can't control them. You can't protect them. You can only hope. So far, none have survived long enough. Or maybe they have, nobody remembers much detail of how long that Marine had endured. They shift and change according to the telling. So maybe they are survived long enough, longer than this Marine, and the hope is a false one.

Just a thought.

And an excellent one at that! That would tie the myth of getting to the other side of the curse and give that one Marine a quirk that marks him out from the others. As well as not knowing how long he's survived the Death Company, his name has been lost as well. Model wise, I could make him stand out a little from the others. Or I could have him take the position of the Chaplain that accompanies them.

Brilliant!

[Aqui]

I've spent all night adding to the first post, as I had somewhat of an epiphany and wanted to get as much down as possible. It's crude and I dare say there is more than a little that makes no sense, needs reorganising or moving, but for the most part, it's something that I can work with. I haven't put any decent formatting in yet, as I'm wary of BBCode at the moment, but I'll get re-acquainted with it eventually and add it in.

Hopefully I'm on the right track.

Comments etc most welcome!

[Aqui]

Have been thinking about the Chapters' symbol. I've been thinking along the lines of a red heart, with a white "+", perhaps in a white circle. I've seen a few examples of it online. It's simple enough for me to be able to paint, or even have a go at greenstuff with.

I've also had another mess around with the Painter, this time with Blue armour:

The first one I like, but reminds me to much of the Ultramarines. The second is one I'm inclined to at the moment I;ve added red eyes as a nod to their progenitor Chapter, and a gold eagle as a nod to Sanguinius' armour.

I haven't had much time to add more or edit the first post, but hopefully will be able to soon.

C+C welcome

[Ravenfeld]

Ironically I think the second one reminds me more of the Ultramarines! Why not do half n' half armor? It isn't too difficult to pull off, or so I hear.