*Furyou Miko Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 Mith, those variations make no sense. Why would the Immolator be an assault vehicle? How the heck do you justify Seraphim, who are rarer than Pariahs being fielded as Troops? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3400542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mith Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Mith, those variations make no sense. Why would the Immolator be an assault vehicle? How the heck do you justify Seraphim, who are rarer than Pariahs being fielded as Troops? Point 1: The rationale is no stranger than the inconsistency in Rhino-chassis armour values across multiple units. It'd simply be a balance solution for the Codex's lack of assault transport combined with lack of survivable melee infantry. An alternative would be the Codex-legalisation of Repressors, with the Stormlord-esque addition that a Repressor 'is treated as open-topped for the purposes of passengers embarking and disembarking'. Point 2: Everyone and their uncle's dog is now a Gunslinger. Seriously. Practically everyone with two hands is able to do what Seraphim do. And while I agree, entirely, that it wouldn't be the fluffiest way of dealing with the fact we're the only army which only has one scoring unit type, it's certainly no worse than Commander Dante miraculously making 30% of a Company into golden-clad super-soldiers. I should point out that my observations were in terms of things that would correct shortcomings in the Codex's balance issues without requiring the release of new miniatures, and that I agree they would be far from ideal. Naturally, my preference would be for a complete overhaul of the Codex, complete with new models and unit types - a sentiment that I think would be fairly ubiquitous among folks who collect Sisters. But given the fact we're going on ten years without a new model from Games Workshop, and that the White Dwarf Codex actually reduced the number of units in the army (as well as removing our second Ecclesiarchy-related Troops choice, Zealot units), I'd be willing to accept an unfluffy balance update as an interim solution. Additionally, your point about the Seraphim got me thinking about the upcoming Apocalypse release. I wonder what formations, if any, will be included for Sisters of Battle (peripherally related to thread topic, since Super-Heavies only really come into play in Apoc). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3400700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigrid Of Asgaror Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 It would be nice for Seraphim to get some more special rules. Just something to set them out from the rest. I know it isn't amazingly fluffy, but they are meant to be elite and rare. Celestians could have a better stat line and maybe monster hunter or tank hunter. In my opinion they need the biggest overhaul. Maybe with the new Apocalypse release we might get something to do with more faith points and maybe an army wide act of faith. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3400703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 ... I wonder what formations, if any, will be included for Sisters of Battle (peripherally related to thread topic, since Super-Heavies only really come into play in Apoc). Since we've got a WD codex and nothing new for an age I think we'll get the same treatment as such armies got the first time. Which is to say almost nothing, at best. Maybe we can get a new book and models before the "Reload" expansion and that can have some for us? Or maybe GW will remember that you can download stuff from websites too and put some formations up on the site? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3400717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Good one warriorfish, maybe they will remember how to do that as well as fixin the White Dwarf as a "week early catalogue" of what's coming out and actually print useful info like they used too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3400726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted June 25, 2013 Author Share Posted June 25, 2013 There were two apocalypse formations released for Sisters in white dwarf. The Repressor is codex-legal. Making it open-topped for assaulting makes little sense, too - it's blatantly not. Seraphim's specialness isn't because of Seraphim Pistols, it's because of Angelic Visage turning them into mini-saints. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3400750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mith Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 There were two apocalypse formations released for Sisters in white dwarf. The Repressor is codex-legal. Making it open-topped for assaulting makes little sense, too - it's blatantly not. Seraphim's specialness isn't because of Seraphim Pistols, it's because of Angelic Visage turning them into mini-saints. I have said White Dwarf - I wondered if there'd be any additions/changes based on the (as yet unknown) ruleset. I recommend you look at the Stormlord model - and I did point out that it was simply a case of corrections sans new models. And I pretty much agreed with you regarding the Seraphim, and pointed out that it was a mechanical concern and not 'good fluff' - methinks you're just looking for an argument, so I'll bow out gracefully. Peace. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3400767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanska Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 With a new model the repressor would make a good assault transport. It's used to get arbites/sisters trough walls so rapid disembarking of the "strike squad" would make sense. @Mith, Miko isn't looking for an argument. She's a puritan and is extra sensitive to avarage-janeing the seraphim Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3400776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 The question becomes I suppose... whos using the assault transport? Repentia? How do people feel about reincluding arbites in the codex? Or Frateris Militia as troops? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3400779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 How do people feel about reincluding arbites in the codex? Or Frateris Militia as troops? I look forward to it. Maybe this'll be the basis of the supplement? Or maybe GW will remember that you can download stuff from websites too and put some formations up on the site? If buy 'the site' you mean 'itunes', then yeah, I bet you'll be able to download datasheets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3400897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Arbites would be cool, I'd convert one to be Dredd. Not that it would require much modding :P I'd rather eat my munitorum issue head wear than pay for a datasheet that took an unpaid intern half an hour to knock together in photoshop... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3400934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted June 25, 2013 Author Share Posted June 25, 2013 Frateris Militia, yes, but Arbites deserve their own mini-dex or inclusion in the Inquisition list, rather than the Sororitas one. Mith... I'm not looking for a fight, sorry if I'm coming over a little harshly. It's not my intention. My emotions are running pretty high at the moment, that's all. I'm familiar with the Stormlord. It's got a massive open fighting platform on the back for people to stand on shooting stuff. It effectively IS open-topped, but it's so massive and armoured that it makes no difference to its defensive capabilities - whereas the Repressor is basically an armoured transit van. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3401127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mith Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Well, my rationale with the Stormlord example was more one of economies of scale: the platform at the back is big enough for four models (ish), and it is considered an assault transport for 20 troops - so I figured since the Repressor's hatch is big enough for two heavy-bolter-toting Sisters, it'd be no sillier than a lot of stuff to give it the same treatment for 10. Either way, it was more an extension of the Codex-shortcomings discussion a few posts ago, rather than a declaration that a few tweaks to the rules would negate the growing need for a real army update - and none of the proposed changes were particularly 'fluffy' (Faith can't be quantified, so it can't really be made to 'scale'; Rhino-chassis vehicles are never given Assault Vehicle/Open-Topped, although the relegation of the Immolator to a glorified Razorback stings; Seraphim are, I feel, too rare to get sixty in one place, even with a Living Saint at the head of a War of Faith, unless you're talking about an operation on the scale of a Great Crusade, and even then they'd be spread too thinly). As to Frateris Militia, I would LOVE to see them in a new Sisters Codex - though if Zealots were also to be included, it'd need some thought as to what role the Militia served (if Zealots are an expendable infantry blob, and Battle Sisters are elite mid-range troops, what niche do the rarer-and-better-than-Zealots-but-more-numerous-and-less-capable-than-sisters-Militiamen slot into?). I admit that I'm probably more attached to Zealots as a unit than most Sisters players, but I just feel they are so gloriously fluffy. Hordes of expendable hivers and pilgrims and penitents, swamping the foes of the God Emperor, drowning the forces of the archenemy in a sea of mortified flesh. I figure mine will spend a bit of time as counts-as Guardsmen - possibly led by my current conversion project (inspired by the Canoness-Errant Setheno - and if any Black Library Sisters character ever deserved some stats, it's her). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3401150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Frateris militia or "initiates" would make the most sense for a 2nd scoring unit for us.Actually probably Initiates, preferably. They're basically the SoB equivalent of SM Scouts, anyway. Not yet full on Sisters, but they'd still fit the decree passive and the fluff of an all female fighting force. Maybe something like BS4 with an armor save of like 4 or 5+, roll em 15-20 deep with a regular sister as the unit leading character (a supervisor/aspiring superior) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3401602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted June 26, 2013 Author Share Posted June 26, 2013 More likely to be BS3 with 3+ saves - we don't have to wait for our initiates to grow into their armour, we have armour for 14-year-olds on standby. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3401680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RookBartly Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 I have been seriously thinking of sitting down and actually doing a solid complete re-write of a codex for the sisters of battle with fluff, painting samples like in our older dex, and other things in it. I wanted to do something like this... HQ: -Keep the same for all the characters/units -Cannoness a few more options including a jump pack again. Elites: -Sisters Repentia: Same as current + access to a transport -Celestian Squad: Add option for unit to upgrade to close combat weapons & pistols. Make them Init 4 -Make Penitent Engines Elite Options Troops: -Battle Sister Squad: Same as current -'Scout' type sisters. Same as basic Battle Sisters but 5~10 sisters, 'Scout', No 'Heavy Weapons' -Zealots: Cheap mob with nothing more then laz-pistols & improvised weapons, 10~30 Fast Attack: -Dominion Squads: Same as current -Seraphim Squad: Same as current Heavy Support: -Exorcist: Same as current -Retributor Squad: Same as current -Exorcist Variant: Same as Exorcist + Skyfire Transports: -Rhino: Same as current -Repressor: Add to dex. AV12, 6 fire points, 1 special weapon fire point, Heavy Flamer, storm bolter -Assault 'Truck': 11F,11S, 10R, Opentop Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3401716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 More likely to be BS3 with 3+ saves - we don't have to wait for our initiates to grow into their armour, we have armour for 14-year-olds on standby. I don't know if its just me, but that sounds awefully anime-esque. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3401783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted June 26, 2013 Author Share Posted June 26, 2013 That's because anime tends to use protagonists in the 10-16 age range or the 25-40 age range, depending on the target audience. It's from a Cain book, so the actual inspiration is anybody's guess, but I'd favour the idea that 14 is squiring age. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3401801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 It's from a Cain book, so the actual inspiration is anybody's guess, but I'd favour the idea that 14 is squiring age. I think I recall that passage. Wern't they defending a schola and they specifically had those suits as training equipment? I'm not sure the Cadets would get the full meal deal in terms of protective capability, it was more intended to teach them how to react to being servo-assisted done in small group excercises from a limited number of said suits. I'm not sure I want units of pubescent girls hard coded into the fluff. Pubescent super-soldiers (marines) are bad enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3401819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 If those scout type sisters become a thing, they need to be pricier by a decent bit or theyll just become the default troop choice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3401953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted June 27, 2013 Author Share Posted June 27, 2013 No, I'm thinking of the convent on that world that was half-Tau and infested with Genestealers. It was a convent, not a schola, and it just mentioned that one of the Sisters hurrying past to prepare the defences (in full armour) looked 'no older than fourteen'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3402018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retaliation Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 No, I'm thinking of the convent on that world that was half-Tau and infested with Genestealers. It was a convent, not a schola, and it just mentioned that one of the Sisters hurrying past to prepare the defences (in full armour) looked 'no older than fourteen'. I think you might be getting the books mixed up miko :S. It sounds like you're describing the first book which had no defensive sections, and no mention of sisters little or big (har) that I can recall. 5 and 6 both had sisters as pretty significant players, and both had parts where the sisters were defending, so maybe you're thinking of 5? Otherwise you would have been thinking of the passage Eddie was describing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3402082 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted June 27, 2013 Author Share Posted June 27, 2013 I would go look it up, but it's in the bottom of a box at the new bungalow (hopefully) by now. It was certainly in the first omnibus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3402159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RookBartly Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 This is what I was thinking of for 'scouts'. Extern Squad……………………………………………… 70 points WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv OPTIONS: Extern 3 4 3 3 1 3 1 8 3+ - May include up to five additional Externs: Extern Superior 3 4 3 3 1 3 2 9 3+ …………………………………………………………………………. 13 pts - For every five models in squad, up to two Externs may Composition: Wargear: replace their boltgun with one of the following: * 4 Externs * Power Armor * Storm bolter………………………………………………… 3 pts * 1 Extern Superior * Bolter * Flamer…………………...……………………………………. 5 pts * Bolt Pistol * Meltagun…….………………………...………………………. 10 pts Unit Type: * Frag Grenades - Any Extern may replace their bolter with a condemnor * Infantry * Krak Grenades boltgun:………………………………………………………………… 15 pts - One Extern can take a simulacrum imperialis Special Rules: …………………………………………………………………………. 20 pts * Shield of Faith - The Extern Superior may replace her bolter and/or bolt * Scout pistol with: * Act of Faith * Chainsword..………………………………………………… Free - Guidance of the Faithful * Storm Bolter………………………………………………….. 3 pts (Gains 'Sniper' Special Rule) * Power Weapon………………………………………………. 10 pts * Combi-Flamer, combi-melta, or combi-plasma Dedicated Transport: …………………………………………………………………………. 10 pts * The squad can select any * Condemnor boltgun or plasma pistol……………….. 15 pts dedicated transport - The Extern Superior may take melta bombs………….5 pts (see transport section). Extern Squad……………………………………………… 70 points WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv OPTIONS: Extern 3 4 3 3 1 3 1 8 3+ - May include up to five additional Externs: Extern Superior 3 4 3 3 1 3 2 9 3+ …………………………………………………………………………. 13 pts - For every five models in squad, up to two Externs may Composition: Wargear: replace their boltgun with one of the following: * 4 Externs * Power Armor * Storm bolter………………………………………………… 3 pts * 1 Extern Superior * Bolter * Flamer…………………...……………………………………. 5 pts * Bolt Pistol * Meltagun…….………………………...………………………. 10 pts Unit Type: * Frag Grenades - Any Extern may replace their bolter with a condemnor * Infantry * Krak Grenades boltgun:………………………………………………………………… 15 pts - One Extern can take a simulacrum imperialis Special Rules: …………………………………………………………………………. 20 pts * Shield of Faith - The Extern Superior may replace her bolter and/or bolt * Scout pistol with: * Act of Faith * Chainsword..………………………………………………… Free - Guidance of the Faithful * Storm Bolter………………………………………………….. 3 pts (Gains 'Sniper' Special Rule) * Power Weapon………………………………………………. 10 pts * Combi-Flamer, combi-melta, or combi-plasma Dedicated Transport: …………………………………………………………………………. 10 pts * The squad can select any * Condemnor boltgun or plasma pistol……………….. 15 pts dedicated transport - The Extern Superior may take melta bombs………….5 pts (see transport section). Extern Squad……………………………………………… 70 points WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv OPTIONS: Extern 3 4 3 3 1 3 1 8 3+ - May include up to five additional Externs: Extern Superior 3 4 3 3 1 3 2 9 3+ …………………………………………………………………………. 13 pts - For every five models in squad, up to two Externs may Composition: Wargear: replace their boltgun with one of the following: * 4 Externs * Power Armor * Storm bolter………………………………………………… 3 pts * 1 Extern Superior * Bolter * Flamer…………………...……………………………………. 5 pts * Bolt Pistol * Meltagun…….………………………...………………………. 10 pts Unit Type: * Frag Grenades - Any Extern may replace their bolter with a condemnor * Infantry * Krak Grenades boltgun:………………………………………………………………… 15 pts - One Extern can take a simulacrum imperialis Special Rules: …………………………………………………………………………. 20 pts * Shield of Faith - The Extern Superior may replace her bolter and/or bolt * Scout pistol with: * Act of Faith * Chainsword..………………………………………………… Free - Guidance of the Faithful * Storm Bolter………………………………………………….. 3 pts (Gains 'Sniper' Special Rule) * Power Weapon………………………………………………. 10 pts * Combi-Flamer, combi-melta, or combi-plasma Dedicated Transport: …………………………………………………………………………. 10 pts * The squad can select any * Condemnor boltgun or plasma pistol……………….. 15 pts dedicated transport - The Extern Superior may take melta bombs………….5 pts (see transport section). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3402410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Ouch, the formatting gods weren't pleased with that post, Rook. You might want to edit your post to make it a bit more readable. The idea itself is ok, but it might be a bit too similar to normal Sister squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276770-our-super-unit-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3402427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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