Scars

[Wade Garrett]

I'm a few pages behind, but I want to clarify what I said about Angron.

 

To me, Angron losing one on one is like Magnus being outpsykered, Perturabo getting outsieged, or someone somehow being even more FAAAABULOUS than Fulgrim.

 

That's his thing, fighting mano e mano and face to face. That's his ONLY thing, Perturabo may be unfairly stigmatized as the trench digger guy, whose other skills are overlooked. Angron, though...he's no general. No leader. Not an orator, a builder, a philosopher, spy, sorceror...his value is literally defined by the reach of the blades in his hand. He has nothing else.

 

Thus, for him to lose in that situation is, and should be treated as, a really big freaking deal.

 

Am I making myself a bit clearer?

[depthcharge12]

I would most agree with you wade.

 

To take that away from angron would be to make him like Ferrus manus...lame

[Scribe]

Thankfully, ADB did not. So we are all cool. :p

[depthcharge12]

Thankfully, ADB did not. So we are all cool.

Yeah his work induces templars everywhere to shave aquilias off their marines, bromances to evolve, and awesome quotes to be spouted like commandments XD

[lilMAC25]

From the BL facebook page:

 

$36.00 US for a 12 chapter eBook?

[b1soul]

@ Wade Garrett

 

Yes, I totally agree. In the real world, there is a thing called probability. When two fighters go at it, the superior fighter has superior odds of winning, not an absolute certainty of winning. Angron is supposed to be the best one on one fighter among the primarchs. It's not impossible for him to lose a duel. The underdog always has a slim chance of winning...but it would be odd for a BL authour to have him lose just for the heck of it. It would make much more sense for an authour to highlight his strengths rather than undermine them.

 

 

Well two points, The Khan is considered the best swordsman, even more so than Fulgrim.

 

I remember that Fulgrim and the Khan are mentioned as equal swordsmen. The best swordsmen among the primarchs should be Fulgrim, the Khan, and the Lion. Fulgrim because he's such a perfectionist technician, the Khan because...he's Asian, and the Lion because he comes from a knightly background emphasising mastery of the sword

 

 

No Legion is savage nor is any primarch.

 

I agree that Russ and the Khan are not savages, but Angron and his World Eaters are savage with the Butcher's nails

[Conn Eremon]

Wade, I don't disagree with that. It should be a major deal for Angron to lose in a duel. But I don't believe it should never happen, or that it would detract from him in any way if it did happen. It's like any boxing or fighting match. You can have one guy who is a cut above his peers. A complete monster, utterly unstoppable. But he can lose and it will happen. When it does, it is a major deal. The giant has fallen. The audience roars with enthusiastic disbelief. But it doesn't change who he is. He will still be the giant, the guy everyone bets on.

[b1soul]

Wade, I don't disagree with that. It should be a major deal for Angron to lose in a duel. But I don't believe it should never happen, or that it would detract from him in any way if it did happen. It's like any boxing or fighting match. You can have one guy who is a cut above his peers. A complete monster, utterly unstoppable. But he can lose and it will happen. When it does, it is a major deal. The giant has fallen. The audience roars with enthusiastic disbelief. But it doesn't change who he is. He will still be the giant, the guy everyone bets on.

 

Yes...but in the HH series, authours have mainly highlighted the strengths of each primarch, there's really no point in having Angron lose at something he is very dominant at simply to show that the unlikely can still ahppen

[High MarshalGR]

I'm a few pages behind, but I want to clarify what I said about Angron.

 

To me, Angron losing one on one is like Magnus being outpsykered, Perturabo getting outsieged, or someone somehow being even more FAAAABULOUS than Fulgrim.

 

That's his thing, fighting mano e mano and face to face. That's his ONLY thing, Perturabo may be unfairly stigmatized as the trench digger guy, whose other skills are overlooked. Angron, though...he's no general. No leader. Not an orator, a builder, a philosopher, spy, sorceror...his value is literally defined by the reach of the blades in his hand. He has nothing else.

 

Thus, for him to lose in that situation is, and should be treated as, a really big freaking deal.

 

Am I making myself a bit clearer?

 

Sounds pretty on-spot. That's what I and Greyall were defending in the previous pages... Duels are his best thing. He might have lost the war after he merely won the battle, but he still won the duel vs Russ who is not to triffle with too. The fact that Russ won by outsmarting him shows their differences even more.

 

Also, some people here focus heavily on the "what if" scenario were the Nails were never implanted in Angron. There is a catch to this scenarion. If they weren't implanted in him, his reasoning skills might have been higher but his duel-fighting potential may have been lower (just reading what the Nails do to the individual they are installed on). But since we can merely speculate, it's really a tough one to accurately guess.

[GhostMalone]

I disagree look at the warhounds they were still a severely disciplined and aggressive legion.

 

I believe angron was always destined to be angry and as he is. All the nails do in my opinion are cloud his decision making and the ability to think clearly.

 

We've seen that when the nails are flat out he is a relaxed happy being in his mind and can make clear thoughts and decisions in that state

[Entei]

Something of interest that I noticed in Betrayer is that Angron actually experiences a state of serenity when the nails sing and he butchers people, unlike his legionnaires, who feel that it's there but can't reach it(from Khârn's POV). 

[Conn Eremon]

Yes...but in the HH series, authours have mainly highlighted the strengths of each primarch, there's really no point in having Angron lose at something he is very dominant at simply to show that the unlikely can still ahppen

Well, no, an author should not have Angron defeated just for the sake of showing that he can be. An author should determine which is most appropriate to the story and choose accordingly.

[Emperor's Furor]

In the FW book, Betrayal, the War Hounds without Angron still massacred people, even when they were broken up temporarily the largest (8k of them) still maintained this reputation, earning the nickname "the bloody 13th" (13th expedition fleet), it's said their victories only ended in either two ways victorious slaughter or simple slaughter. They were all already unpredictable, ill temperered and dangerous to anything that stood in their path, combatant or otherwise.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, according to the events at Cerberus(IIRC), they were exactly what the Emperor wanted. All he had to do was point. But when Angron came into the mix, that pointing became dangerous because they were just as likely to destroy everything in that direction rather than just the target. The pre-Angron War Horunds were not too different from the post-Russ Space Wolves.

[Emperor's Furor]

I'm just quoting from the book, it said even before Angron turned up they had a bad reputation.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, I know. But that reputation only got worse. Before, they were the Emperor's Executioners, or one of the closest things to it. After Angron, they went from crushing whatever point of resistance they were directed at to collateral damage on insane scales. It's like the transition from a Javelin missile to a dirty nuke.

[depthcharge12]

Yeah, I know. But that reputation only got worse. Before, they were the Emperor's Executioners, or one of the closest things to it. After Angron, they went from crushing whatever point of resistance they were directed at to collateral damage on insane scales. It's like the transition from a Javelin missile to a dirty nuke.

 

Yeah, great comparison. I would just like to add: a dirty nuke with chainaxes :)

 

The nuke thing is great because that is what envariably caused systems to come under compliance under just the whispers of the XIIth legion being deployed.

 

They kinda act as a deterrent in an unintentional way.

 

Its like when the US sent over B2 bombers to drop dummy nukes in South Korea when North Korea (hilariously) "escalated" against us. Hell we could send the National Gaurd or the Michigan militia to defeat them, but the threat of complete and utter annihilation puts some stops on their plans.

 

The world eaters dont just bomb them back to the stone age...they completely wipe your crap stain of a civilization off the face of the planet with nothing but a rememberence of the result.

 

Do we know if the WS like to destabilize govts/regimes? or is that counter productive to the great crusade?

[Emperor's Furor]

White Scars tend to cut the enemy a dozen times with lightning fast raids before retreating, once the enemy is weak enough they go for the heart.

[Scribe]

Something of interest that I noticed in Betrayer is that Angron actually experiences a state of serenity when the nails sing and he butchers people, unlike his legionnaires, who feel that it's there but can't reach it(from Khârn's POV). 

 

My opinion on that, is thats its the difference between Angron being Nails Lost (Serenity) and Legionnaires being Nails Lost (Rage Blackout). The intent is the same, you are one with rage, violence, and you enter a head space that is in union with that.

[Kol Saresk]

Well actually, from what we can tell, other than the Nails forcing them to feel rage-joy, it leaves the rest of their cognitive functions alone. It simply makes them hyper-aggressive and hardwires their pleasure centers so that is all they truly enjoy. But they can still sleep, dream, rest and have periods of peace where the Nails aren't driving them batty. Angron is different to extremes. There is enough of a difference between the physiology of his brain and that of a normal human, that the Nails are actually tearing his mind apart. He is never not hyper-aggressive except for a few, rare, fleeting moments. They don't make him feel rage, they actually cause him pain and he is just lashing out in rage. When they reach the crescendo where he is at his peak and fighting and killing and fulfilling their ultimate purpose, he actually blacks out. And when he blacks out, it is the closest he will ever come to experiencing peace, sleep and dreams. It isn't serenity as in enjoyment, it serenity in that for once in his life, he is no longer experiencing pain.

 

And to be honest, forcing Angron to become a daemon prince, was problem one of the better things anyone has done for him. Killing him might have been the best, but we'll never know. But because before daemonhood, we see him twitching and bleeding from his nose and just wanting to break everything in sight. But the portrayal of him after the ascension, Angron is truly at peace. He might still incorporate the Nails into his physical appearance, but they no longer hurt him. He is truly free of pain. He's still a mass murderer, but it was only after his ascension that he actually started to truly enjoy killing because before, it was a means to an end.

 

At least, that's what I got from it.

[Wade Garrett]

Again, not trying to say Angron should never lose...I honestly hope ABD gets to deliver on the hints in Betrayer that Sanguinus will face Daemon Angron at the Eternity Gate, which we know Sang will win, but as long as Angron's fall is like the fall of mountains, I'm okay with that.

[Peter the Hermit]

Wade I'm not ok with that...To me Russ going down (after 20 years of hobby and all those sagas about him) really screwed him up...

 

I always considered him as a no.1 beast and imagine my pain when I've read "the Betrayer"...Fandom (fanboys & haters) responded by totally ignoring the point of the story and were

 

gloating like maniacs over that.... "Russ lost, Angron sparred him (yes you heard it), Russ is deluded fool who had it coming etc)....

 

.....Now this is me and my obesrvation which is probably biased, but hey - I can voice my opinion....

[Kol Saresk]

A lot of the fandom were gloating and rubbing it everyone's faces that the Wolves were supposedly made to kill other Legions right after Prospero Burns was released. Everyone, everything has its ups and downs. It is a fact of life and is a fact of decent literature. A perfect creation is perfect. But once something is perfect, it becomes..... stagnant. Unchanging. Never growing. Never becoming better. If it changes, it can only go downhill. Perfection isn't just a pinnacle of existence, it is the pinnacle of existence. Once you reach it, you might as well end yourself because you will never do anything greater. And perfect characters are also pretty boring. No one can win them all. Not unless they die before they lose.

[High MarshalGR]

Wade I'm not ok with that...To me Russ going down (after 20 years of hobby and all those sagas about him) really screwed him up...

 

I always considered him as a no.1 beast and imagine my pain when I've read "the Betrayer"...Fandom (fanboys & haters) responded by totally ignoring the point of the story and were

 

gloating like maniacs over that.... "Russ lost, Angron sparred him (yes you heard it), Russ is deluded fool who had it coming etc)....

 

.....Now this is me and my obesrvation which is probably biased, but hey - I can voice my opinion....

 

Russ might have lost the duel, but he won the war. For me he wanted to reveal to Angron that there exists a bigger picture. Anyone can lose under the proper circumstances. Primarchs aren't perfect beings, as Kol stated above. He was a winner in his own way. 

[Scribe]

Sure fair points. I agree Kol, that Angron's 'peace' is really just a near out of body experience. Its the only time he isnt feeling the Nails rip his mind apart.

I do feel that the marines when Nails lost are blacked out though, there certainly isnt much of a description (that I recall) from their perspective while Lost. Its just "I was fighting here.....now I am alone, what happened."

As for Russ, he did lose (the fight) did teach a lesson (that fell on deaf ears) failed to hear a lesson (Angron's position of Freedom) and could likely have ended Angron at the cost of both Legions.

Both 'won', both 'lost', and thats why ADB rules. I, and I am sure others, took extra pleasure in the scene (and I bet it likely was written because of!) the backlash from Prospero Burns, another reason ADB rules.

Yes, I will have this fight again, and again, and again.

EDIT: Also, not sure the Angel fights Angron. I thought it was more a stare down, but since the arc with the bloodthirster was ruined by him already BEATING the Bloodthirster...maybe they retcon it to be against Angron?