Scars

[Wade Garrett]

Well, Dorn makes mention of wishing the two Lost Primarchs were around as he's hanging around Terra waiting for Horus. I hardly can't really see that being the case if they'd both screwed up so badly the Emperor threw them to the Wolves.

 

As for Wolf fans getting a shiny toy and having it taken away...when "Savage Weapons" came out my VIII Legion loving self was a happy panda, happily performing the "My daddy can beat up your daddy" dance in front of many a I Legion fan in many a thread. And then...."Prince of Crows".

 

No sympathy for the space puppies will be forthcoming from this quarter.

[b1soul]

Regarding the Warhounds vs. the World Eaters. I'm pretty sure that even without the Butcher's Nails, Angron would've been a highly aggressive primarch...just like how the Warhounds are highly aggressive and bloodthirsty pre-Nails

 

 

To me Russ going down (after 20 years of hobby and all those sagas about him) really screwed him up...

 

I always considered him as a no.1 beast

 

Why? The only talent Angron with the Butcher's Nails is close combat. Russ is charismatic, an excellent general, cunning enough to counter the TSon's attempt to infiltrate the Wolves...he's much more well-rounded. If Russ were also better at close combat, that'd leave Angron with nothing

 

Russ might have lost the duel, but he won the war.

 

Yes, that's why both legions claimed to have won but secretly feared they had lost. Angron could claim that he won the duel. Russ could claim his legion won a tactical vitory...although Angron did claim, quetionably, that there were more SW bodies on the field

 

[Kol Saresk]

Does it really count as losing when you let someone win though?

[Apothecary Vaddon]

That depends on whether you believe Anderson Silva lost.

I'm on the fence.

[Scribe]

That depends on whether you believe Anderson Silva lost.

I'm on the fence.

 

Epic post.

[Wade Garrett]

That depends on whether you believe Anderson Silva lost.

I'm on the fence.

Put me in the "Flat on your back with little cartoon birds and stars swirling around your head means YOU LOST" camp.

 

Whether we're talking about the Wolf King or the Spider.

[Peter the Hermit]

Well, Dorn makes mention of wishing the two Lost Primarchs were around as he's hanging around Terra waiting for Horus. I hardly can't really see that being the case if they'd both screwed up so badly the Emperor threw them to the Wolves.

 

As for Wolf fans getting a shiny toy and having it taken away...when "Savage Weapons" came out my VIII Legion loving self was a happy panda, happily performing the "My daddy can beat up your daddy" dance in front of many a I Legion fan in many a thread. And then...."Prince of Crows".

 

No sympathy for the space puppies will be forthcoming from this quarter.

Yep just like 200 UM vs 600 WB and not one Bobby junior dead, no sympathy there also...

 

Also you have a very deep understanding of the story lol....one primarch is on his back (with birds and gak) and the other one has shootaz  pointed at his one-brow :-) and you count a guy on his back as a loser ?

 

But Wade is a typical 40k fan so no pun intended....

 

What did I tell you @Kol,  how will this be interprerted ?

[Wade Garrett]

No, the interpretation is simple. ADB very helpfully had Lorgar spell it out for us using short sentences and words with few syllables.

 

Angron won the fight but lost the battle. Russ won the battle but lost the fight.

 

This is because Russ is superior to Angron in many areas. Strategy. Tactics. Stringing more than four words togather without getting overwhelmed by his own bloodlust. But when it comes to the narrow, highly specific area of Applied Personal Facebreaking, Angron is better. Because while Russ may be a close combat monster, Angron is a close combat monster with machines in his brain making him even more combative and also bugnuts insane. Like a pro boxer vs a pro boxer dosed with PCP.

 

This is not a difficult concept to grasp, unless you have some kind of irrational personal investment in the idea of Leman Russ as the BESTEST PRIMARCH EVAR11!! who, had he been at Terra, would have singlehandedly smote Horus's horde with fire from his eyes and lightning from his arse.

[Kol Saresk]

It could also be seen as that Russ was so intent making a point that he intentionally let Angron "beat him" in order to prove the point that while Angron and his Legion may all be gladiators, they are not a cohesive Legion. Still serves the same purpose as what Wade described, but does make Russ come out better.

 

But since Angron was able to organize an armor regiment that gained the approval of Ferrus Manus, it is fair to say that while he may not have a cohesive Legion, both he and his Legion recognize that if you put enough force on a single point, the line will break.

 

Regardless of how you look at it, Russ did teach Angron that the World Eaters might be superior fighters, they are not superior soldiers. The strength offered by the Nails comes at a fatal cost. And it was a lesson Angron did not learn until Lorgar, the only brother who even attempted to show him kindness, pointed out.

[GhostMalone]

Also the only way you can slaughter innocents is to bring the wall down!

[Scribe]

No, I cannot accept the 'Russ let him win' or 'Russ held back'. Angron, with WORDS, pushed Russ into attacking HIM. Yes thats right. The Gladiator with the Pain Engine stuck to his head, the only Primarch who was a slave, trolled the Wolf King, and laughed in his face while doing it.

 

Russ lost control. Angron points this out as well, and it cost him far more than it cost Angron, in losing face, and loss of Astartes who he (Russ) valued INFINITELY more than Angron did his Legion, and Russ (vs Angron) lost while Space Wolves (vs Angron) would have been a win. Its as plain as day.

 

Again Kol is right, Russ proved a point in this scene, but it was a point Angron did not acknowledge the value of at all. He did not want Soldiers, hell if you dig even remotely under the surface, he didnt want to be there alive at all only his inability to accept giving in to anything prevented him from offing himself.

 

EDIT: I really didnt want to get into this, as I had to put up with pages of it on Warseer. At the end I can accept the MANY limitations of Angron, and the World Eaters. I can accept that he could lose a fight (It would end only in his death though, just think about it) and that the Legion itself is BROKEN.

 

But he didnt lose a FIGHT, in Betrayer. Not against Russ, and not against Rob, and not against a Warhounds Foot.

[GhostMalone]

Heck yes!!! You speak the truth

[Wade Garrett]

"Look at your Legion. Now look at mine. Now back at yours. Where are your gene sons? They're in some room doing useless crap like praying or planning. But they could already be on the battlefield if you gave them BUTCHER'S NAILS! BUTCHER'S NAILS! They give you energy! Energy for kicking butt! Kicking so much butt you wear out the servomotors in your greaves and kneepads and need to get new ones! BUTCHER'S NAILS! They're like riding a pony! A pony that's a hundred feet tall and made out of skulls, fire, and chainsaws! THE BEST PONY EVER! BUTCHER'S NAILS! Your Legion will be blood thirsty, blood shedding, blood drinking BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD if you just call our Apocetharies today and implant them with BUTCHER'S NAILS! I'm Angron, and these are the World Eaters, the Legion your Legion could kill like."

[b1soul]

Kol_Saresk, on 16 Aug 2013 - 09:45, said:

Does it really count as losing when you let someone win though?

Kol_Saresk, on 16 Aug 2013 - 14:04, said:

It could also be seen as that Russ was so intent making a point that he intentionally let Angron "beat him

I highly doubt Russ wanted to be beaten to a pulp in front of his legion. Being thrashed by Angron wasn't necessary to making his point. In fact, Russ's point would've been driven home more heavily if Angron had lost the duel. In that case, Angron would've been in greater need of his men.

 

Russ could've said "I have you at my mercy. Look around, not a single World Eater is here to defend you. Even if I had fallen to your blade, my legion would've finished you. See how loyal and disciplined they are compared to your frothing lunatics."

 

Also notice how Russ is the one who loses his temper, charging Angron...and how Angron doesn't try to finish off Russ as he's crawling away on all fours. You could easily argue that Angron wasn't committed to killing his brother.

[Peter the Hermit]

^ Pretty lame - Angron reached for his axe when Russ pointed timeout  IIRC and big red was shocked about how he is being surrounded..Stop making Angron more like Russ, I don't like that....

Only one was sparred that day and it wasn't Russ....Lorgar even says he sparred your life - don't twist the story please....

 

Angron said your man are dying and Russ replied "and one legion is about to lose a primarch" ... God - and read the author comments please....

 

One legion goes for the throat (read pack goes on Angron while others take the pummeling) and the other one is bezerking....

[b1soul]

^ Pretty lame - Angron reached for his axe when Russ pointed timeout  IIRC and big red was shocked...Stop making Angron more like Russ, I don't like that....Only one was sparred that day and it wasn't Russ....Lorgar even says he sparred your life - don't twist the story please....

 

In Betrayer, Russ crawls away. Angron follows as Russ staggers to his feet. Russ turns around and says "Do you see? Look, damn you. Look around you. Do you see what you've dont to your sons?" Angron lowers his axe. 

 

If Angron had really wanted to end Russ, he would've caved in Russ's head as he attempted to speak, and then the Wolves might've been able to gun down Angron with mass fire. I say "might've" because Angron is one tough b*stard and primarchs don't go down that quickly to bolter fire.

 

...and why would Russ let Angron humiliate him in front of his legion? To make a point? His point would've been conveyed just as clearly by beating Angron and then pointing out that Angron's legion is nowhere near to help him.

[DarthMarko]

Also you know how long was wolf guard targeting Angron ? Do you know that Corswain saved Lions life by backstabing Curze ? Now imagine a ton of elite wolfguard who didn't flinch even after Magnus removed the chaos veil on prospero...One wrong move from Angy's axe and bang,bang...

C'mon everybody let do the twist....

 

Angron didn't want to finish Russ ??? He is a great guy, butcher nails are set to love ???

 

Point of the chapter is moot, tactical victory makes no sense, and Angron is Sanguinius...I can't belive what I'm reading......

[RapatoR]

Ok so I gotta ask: Did somebody red second chapter of Scars?

[Peter the Hermit]

 

^ Pretty lame - Angron reached for his axe when Russ pointed timeout  IIRC and big red was shocked...Stop making Angron more like Russ, I don't like that....Only one was sparred that day and it wasn't Russ....Lorgar even says he sparred your life - don't twist the story please....

 

If Angron had really wanted to end Russ, he would've caved in Russ's head as he attempted to speak, and then the Wolves might've been able to gun down Angron with mass fire. I say "might've" because Angron is one tough b*stard and primarchs don't go down that quickly to bolter fire.

And if Russ wanted to end Angron WG could have opened fire or backstab Angon while they were dueling...You do understand that ? Russ was always with his pack, if he fails there is somebody else to do the job....And Corswain is a nice example how loyality can prevail or save primarch...

[Wade Garrett]

If the Wolf Guard cut loose with Angron killing amounts of firepower while he and Russ were blade to blade they'd have killed both Primarchs. Bolters aren't exactly elegant weapons from a more civilized era.

[Greyall]

Now imagine a ton of elite wolfguard who didn't flinch even after Magnus removed the chaos veil on prospero...One wrong move from Angy's axe and bang,bang...

 

I'm having a hard time imagining it, since A Thousand Sons specifically mentions lots and lots of Wolves going insane when Magnus starts making eyes appear in the sky. You're going down the biased route, mate.

 

Betrayer actually made my appreciation of Angron lower, even though it offered a deeper insight of him, the problem is he's more than the Nails, he's deliberately bitter, distanced and annoying. He takes killing as a job because he doesn't want his job to be following the Big E's orders. The Night of the Wolf is a victory for neither. Both Angron and Russ claim victory on the right grounds (duel and battle, respectively), but both fail to a point because the other finds no value whatsoever in their loss. Whether Russ was holding back or not is pretty irrelevant, his goal was to teach a larger lesson to his brother - who wasn't the least interested in learning it.

 

As for the being a good guy, Angron lowering his axe means he did not want to kill his brother there and then, regardless of the explanation. More likely he didn't care enough to do it.

 

Back to the Scars: someone spoil it a little more, please, or at least offer us two or three major points of the Second Part.

[Peter the Hermit]

Greyall - that is not the point, point is that one man (astarte) can change the tide of primarch battle (like Corswain did with Curze) - now imagine a bulk of your legion behind you....

Russ even said - you would won this if we were in arena - but on the battlefield, no way Jose....Also nobody even mentioned that Russ didn't want to kill Angron, if he wanted wolfguard would jumped on him without pausing to say "Hey dude you are done",damn even Angron admited that Russ wasn't permited to kill him....Imagine the emperor's face when Russ shows up with the head of one of his sons....

 

Fact is if Russ wanted him dead he probably could have done it through pack tactics, he isn't stupid to go man to man with gladiator king...

[Peter the Hermit]

If the Wolf Guard cut loose with Angron killing amounts of firepower while he and Russ were blade to blade they'd have killed both Primarchs. Bolters aren't exactly elegant weapons from a more civilized era.

Khm ever heard of blades ?

[High MarshalGR]

Regarding the Warhounds vs. the World Eaters. I'm pretty sure that even without the Butcher's Nails, Angron would've been a highly aggressive primarch...just like how the Warhounds are highly aggressive and bloodthirsty pre-Nails

 

 

To me Russ going down (after 20 years of hobby and all those sagas about him) really screwed him up...

 

I always considered him as a no.1 beast

 

 

Why? The only talent Angron with the Butcher's Nails is close combat. Russ is charismatic, an excellent general, cunning enough to counter the TSon's attempt to infiltrate the Wolves...he's much more well-rounded. If Russ were also better at close combat, that'd leave Angron with nothing

 

>

Russ might have lost the duel, but he won the war.

 

Yes, that's why both legions claimed to have won but secretly feared they had lost. Angron could claim that he won the duel. Russ could claim his legion won a tactical vitory...although Angron did claim, quetionably, that there were more SW bodies on the field

 

 

 

Great post overally.

 

Please stop comparing Angron and Russ, they are REALLY different fluff-wise. Don't put them in the same glass. They have the same base, they are Primarchs, but that's all. Russ makes battle plans, he uses his head, he is well-rounded. Russ created discipline, and his Legion was a "wolf pack", more than human "brothers". Russ had enough honor not to 2 vs 1 anyone or sh1t on his oath. Angron was the better duelist. Angron wasn't presented as a tactician, a planner. Angron enjoyed bloodshed for itself (we keep forgeting Khorne).

 

I agree Greyall, let's move the subject to the Scars: 

 

 

The White Scars share the beliefs of their Primarch, venerating the Emperor as the Ultimate Uniter of Mankind, but not as a God and so they do not hold the Imperial Creed as their faith and have little regard for the Ecclesiarchy. It is the White Scars' belief that it is their duty to destroy the enemies of the Emperor in preparation for the day when he will rise from the Golden Throne to begin a new Great Crusade to unify the galaxy. On that day, Jaghatai Khan will return from the void to lead the Chapter once more.

To the White Scars, the lightning bolt that serves as their Chapter badge is a potent and important symbol, representing both their style of warfare and echoing the warrior Honour Scars that they bear on their faces. It also represents the powers of the Storm Seers. The Chapter believes that as long as the elemental, animistic powers of air and land heed the call of the Storm Seers the White Scars will never falter on the field of battle. All White Scars bear the long, ritual facial scar that is called an Honour Scar and is the mark they receive when they are fully accepted into the Chapter as Neophytes.

As noted above, the White Scars refuse to deploy Dreadnoughts within their ranks as the thought of being entombed within the mighty cybernetic construction is anathema to the White Scars' beliefs that when a warrior dies, his soul should be free to travel to the afterlife and not be confined where it cannot freely roam the plains of the netherworld.

 

Pretty good. They are indeed awesome!

[DarthMarko]

I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness
at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was
broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one
primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care
if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the
heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar
makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were
massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the
lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're
talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general
through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of
defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ,
and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his
warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no
question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."

 

This is the post from "Aaron the dudemeister Bowden"  (from right here) on that matter - enough for me...... 

 

On topic - how do you guys really feel about episodal reading and paying 2.99 every week ?