Scars

[Kol Saresk]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231249-space-wolves-night-lords-and-world-eaters/page-4?p=2788188&do=findComment&comment=2788188

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?

 

The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."

 

-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

And tactically speaking, the Night Lords are relative sane. Maximum gain for minimum effort. Want a world brought to compliance? Take the capital city so fast that the Imperial Forces watching it like a hawk don't even know a battle happened until they break through the wall and find the bodies. Is that mainland continent giving you heavy resistance? Nuke the other continent.

 

Now, granted I would never call a Night Lord psychologically sane.

[Scribe]

Thing is if Empeor had sent any tacticaly sane primarch to hunt Angy they would have done it like Russ did probably....

 

Perurabo would dig a hole, Magnus would ward him or something, and UM would have done it even better than the wolves..

 

Also scribe of khorne don't acuse people about bias because you are heavy biased yourself , no offense...

 

 

Illustrate my bias. Show where I am not acknowledging fault, and failure in both Angron, and the World Eaters. Provide quotes that support me being biased either from Betrayer, or this thread.

 

Dont worry, I can wait.

[High MarshalGR]

The Wolf biased are missing what everyone else is saying.

 

We accept the Space Wolves had Angron at their mercy at the end. We do. 100%, there is not a SINGLE World Eater fan who denies it.

 

The tears of the Wolves (and the couple of fanboys here) are over the fact (FACT).

 

1. Russ came at Angron due to verbal provocation.

2. Russ crawled away after being beaten back.

3. Space Wolves where being killed by World Eaters. 

 

We know the lesson Russ tried to teach.

We know Angron failed to heed that lesson.

We know Lorgar drove the point home and Angron started to see the point.

 

At the scene however, what Wolf fans cant seem to acknowledge is that Angron has a perspective that is unique to himself.

 

He doesnt even want to be a Primarch, he doesnt want to lead a Legion, and if he could find someone who would individually have the power to end him, he would likely cherish the fact. This is a Primarch who much like Cruze, doesnt want to live at times.

 

Did the Wolves have Angron 'by the balls'? YES.

Did the Wolves out think the World Eaters? YES.

 

Did RUSS LOSE THE SPARING SESSION?! YES.

 

Did the Wolves win? Sure would have. Did Russ lose? Better believe it.

 

Honestly Peter, I can't call this biased. I can say this is the consetrated form of many posts over the issue and I find it pretty objective. I myself like SW just like I like the War Hounds or the loyalists of WE. But one thing I won't do is call forth the fighting potential of Angron. In fact, many of us who are disgussing the issue here haven't done that. Russ himself didn't focus on the fact he lost the duel.

 

Another thing: I don't think myself any legion would have done the same vs the WE. Their fighting potential was pretty good as a Legion overally, and I personally respect that. Many of their customs and traditions focused on the importance they gave to war in it's own accord regardless of purpose (for example the chaining of their weapons onto themselves). 

[Peter the Hermit]

@SoK you started accusing -

 

Quote :

The Wolf biased are missing what everyone else is saying.

The tears of the Wolves (and the couple of fanboys here) ......

 

 

Now point me where SW fans said anything fanboyish other then @DMarko praising the WG ? Also they rubbed you nicely on warseer  :-)

Please let's leave this, it makes me sick...Lol and I'm not a SW fan (check my sig), i like them that's all.....

[Scribe]

Heh not sure what 'rubbed' is supposed to me, trolled I assume? Yes the fanboys certainly had me going in that thread (pick one, I troll constantly...)

As for accusing, you bet I did. That doesnt make me biased though. As the good High Marshal says, I have tried to remain very objective (in this thread )

EDIT: Its cool I hold no grudge, I just didnt say anything biased that is not supported by the texts and wanted to know what you thought was biased.

[Peter the Hermit]

Again you are not on warseer - we have more civil debates here more than in any 40k forum...

 

You are not objective if you are accusing others for fanboism (which never happened here)....Get it in your head, and be civil....

[Scribe]

Fair point, I'll leave the flame thrower at home next time. ;)

[Peter the Hermit]

*Putting back my blade in holster*

 

All cool dude...

[Peter the Hermit]

What ? Dude I play BT...Start trashing Dorn and see my rage....

[Kais Klip]

The thing about Night of the Wolf, Lorgar's comment, Battle of Terra and other things Angron is that Angron's criteria for win/lose is different to that of any strategically competent figure; ie Lorgar, Russ and most of his non-WE opponents. This means that any discussion about absolute resolutes like "victory" or "defeat" is purely subjective, akin to two sides (ahem) both claiming they won when one was playing regicide and the other was just going for a K/D ratio with their pieces.

 

To that end, the outcome of Night of the Wolf and Angron's part in the Battle of Terra is as opinionated as it gets; absolutely reliant on your personal definition of victory. Thus, to Russ and Lorgar, night of the wolf was a victory for the wolves. But to Angron, he had won the fight, so he had won; he did not care about the war, because there was no war or battle, only a fight in the gladiatorial arena that is the galaxy. The only thing that concerned Angron in instances such as these is the outcome of each individual fight that he was placed in, as any gladiator would. Win the fight, win the next fight, and the next fight after that, and you carry the "war". 

 

This is defined in Betrayer when the World Eater strategy mentality is summed up; "Discipline won wars. Fury won fights. ... Win enough fights, and [WE] still carry the war."

 

Once again, because the two sides will continue to duke it out. Your argument of who won the Night of the Wolf is akin to the PDF of some backwater world suffering an eldar invasion, losing their general, and driving the eldar back. The PDF, tasked with the protection of the planet, succeeds. The PDF "won". But what if the whole reason for the eldar invasion is to kill the general? Who won then? The PDF's objective was never to protect the general, and the eldar objective was never to claim the planet, so what measure, what path of logic do you use to determine the 3rd party (you) ordained victor? 

 

Edit: to the mod that excised the hand references, we were talking about the Fist's reputation for self mutilation, ye muppets. 

 

So uh yeah, Scars is good... 

[DarkGuard]

If it isn't constructive then don't post it. Failure to comply will result in more posts getting removed and potentially thread closure.

[Scribe]

@Kais, agreed, thats a point often missed. Angron's frame of reference is nearly alien to the Primarchs/Legions who approach the crusade as Soldiers. He's not here for that, hes here like you say to kill one guy at a time....forever. :D

[b1soul]

Angron didn't want to finish Russ ??? He is a great guy, butcher nails are set to love ???

 

Stop twisting my words. What we do know is that when Russ starts talking, Angrons lowers his axe voluntarily. Bolters don't kill a primarch very quickly. If Angron had wanted to finish the job, he would've had a good chance before eventually being overwhelmed with bolter fire (something I find questionable, as primarchs seem to shrug off regular bolter fire).

 

If the Wolf Guard cut loose with Angron killing amounts of firepower while

he and Russ were blade to blade they'd have killed both Primarchs.

Bolters aren't exactly elegant weapons from a more civilized era.

 

Especially if the Wolves let loose with heavy weapons of the explosive variety. Regular bolters to primarchs are even weaker than lasguns to space marines.

 

 

Greyall

- that is not the point, point is that one man (astarte) can change the

tide of primarch battle (like Corswain did with Curze) - now imagine a

bulk of your legion behind you....

 

Russ even said - you would won this if we were in arena - but on the battlefield, no way Jose....

 

Then there's really no argument is there? We're saying Angron is generally superior to Russ in a straight-up 1 on 1 duel. Furthermore, in that situation with Wolves surrounding Angron and Russ at a distance, no Wolf is rushing to Russ's aid with a power sword a la Corswain. They're simply trying to keep their bolters trained on Angron. It's really debatable whether then can kill Angron with bolters before Angron can finish Russ. If the Wolves use heavier weapons, they'll risk harming/killing their own primarch.

 

 

It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ,

and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his

warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no

question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."

 

This is the post from "Aaron the dudemeister Bowden"  (from right here) on that matter - enough for me......

 

Yes "it was a balance, 50/50". Angron won the duel. Russ won a tactical victory on battlefield. No on is really arguing otherwise. What we're arguing against is that Russ purposefully threw the duel and allowed himself to be smashed in front of his legion. Some SW fans seem to be arguing that Russ let himself lose and his legion completely outmaneuvred Angron's. That wouldn't be a balance now would it?

[Kol Saresk]

This is the part we start measuring with micrometers right?

[Peter the Hermit]

Again ??? Let me ask you b1soul...Why did Angron lowered his axe ??? Out of brotherly love or because Russ told him "Hey dude, where are your men to back you ?" ....Now here is where micrometer starts to show.....According to b1 Angron could have finsihed Russ, shrugged the bolter wounds and he could have killed the bulk of SW, and  the point of the story goes to sewers...Also what my battle brother said before , Russ didn't want to go 2 on 1 because little thing called honor and he didn't have permision to kill Angron (which Angron admited and challenged)...

 

Now this is what I was talking about before...

[DarthMarko]

Wow - I can't belive this...

People are ignoring the point of tactical victory completely...Can bolters bring down primarch, lol? Maybe not, but when primarchs fight all you need is one backstaber just to distract him or save him from the killing strike...Now imagine a center of your legion behind you.....
Now I'll use simple words - one is fully backed by his loyal sons who are willing to sacrifice themselves for him and the other one isn't... We all know who would get out of there alive...If Russ was there to kill him, he (or his legion) would have done it 1000000%...Which Lorgar comfirmed...

Now call me fanboy....please, but go back to the topic theme....

[Conn Eremon]

That isn't fair, Peter. You're taking what b1soul said and exaggerating it to an extreme nobody is going for. What he said was that Angron likely had the ability to off Russ before the bolters would have taken him down, while Russ was rather defenseless at that point. His argument was based on the fact that they were very close to each other, Angron still had axe in hand and Russ was on the ground, crawling (though honestly, I think it was meant that he had gotten up and turned around, otherwise it just sounds weird). Russ wasn't in a position to easily block an ANGRON SMASH, which would have been pretty quick, is what that means. Russ' Legion, however, had bolters trained and ready to go. But b1soul is making note of the fact that, elsewhere in the series, Primarchs can take bolter fire as easily as a tank takes handgun fire. Yes, he would have been mowed down. But not in the initial volley. If someone Corswain'd it, it might be quicker, but the book doesn't suggest there was anyone prepared to do that. Just circle and draw a bead. That is all b1soul stated in his last post. He didn't say anything about thinking Angron could have easily killed Russ and most of his Legion. Just that, at that point, Russ was still in danger. It is fine to disagree with each other but let's not degrade ourselves and this forum by putting words into each other's mouths.

[Scribe]

We should really just accept that I am right.

 

DarthMarko is also correct here, if the intent had been to kill Angron, it likely would have happened. There is no guarantee that Russ would have gotten away before being hacked down either but again, NEITHER of those points are...the point.

 

The story was included to prove a point. That point, was that what Angron had done (install the Nails) had ruined his Legion. Angron did not care, trolled Russ, they rolled around a bit, and went their separate ways. The intended lesson was not learned, but we as readers got some insights that have fueled WAAAAAAAY too many key strokes. :D

[DarthMarko]

^ Cool statement man...very cool....

[calgar101]

Scribe just summed it up nicely there. Angron is too ignorant to be taught any lessons and Russ got a bloody nose for trying to do so. If the clash between the two legions had continued I think both Primarchs would have ended up dead and the two legions would have torn each other to pieces.

[DarthMarko]

But story tells that only one legion is about to lose a primarch....That's the point of "going for the throat (read: Angron), and winning the war " analogy....

 

If both fell that day chapter has no purpose....Just read what Lorgar says....

[Peter the Hermit]

Cormac what Mark said if, Russ was sent to kill Angron he would do it with ease....

 

1 on 1 nope, no primarch is foolish enough to do it that way..... Outmaneuvering and taking him down by less honorable means - easily (because of nails)....

 

Russ was a fool for losing his temper, but even that foolish move is fully backed by his legion....

 

So two titans clash, one is fully backed by his sons other one isn't...I would put my money on the first - simple....Don't degrade this to techicalities about bolters because they have no meaning to the point of story. ....Killing Angron and retreating is analogy for winning the war - losing the battle (like Adb put nicely at the end of the book)...Also sorry b1soul I overreacted...

 

 

@SofK :

-

DarthMarko is also correct here, if the intent had
been to kill Angron, it likely would have happened. There is no

guarantee that Russ would have gotten away before being hacked down
either but again, NEITHER of those points are...the point.

 

I salute you for this - let's leave this here...SW fans will say SW could have taken him down before he swung his axe, WE fans will say not before he hacked Russ :-) Which is all cool

[Stonerhino]

No, I cannot accept the 'Russ let him win' or 'Russ held back'. Angron, with WORDS, pushed Russ into attacking HIM. Yes thats right. The Gladiator with the Pain Engine stuck to his head, the only Primarch who was a slave, trolled the Wolf King, and laughed in his face while doing it.

 

Russ lost control. Angron points this out as well, and it cost him far more than it cost Angron, in losing face, and loss of Astartes who he (Russ) valued INFINITELY more than Angron did his Legion, and Russ (vs Angron) lost while Space Wolves (vs Angron) would have been a win. Its as plain as day.

Sorry. I came late and was expecting discussion on Scars.

 

Also sorry for going so far back to reply.  But your post contains why I hate Angron's version of the Night of the Wolf.  And that reason is because the whole thing only makes sence if Russ was holding back.  Maybe even planned the whole thing from the beginning.   

 

Consider this.  Russ wins the duel.  Then there is no leson to be taught.  The whole reason the Wolves are there is to convince Angron to stop with the nails.  And the only way besides convincing Angron to go back to terra.  Is to prove to Angron how he is breaking his legion.  All Russ winning would do is show Angron that Russ is better in every way.  And we all know that Angron would die before losing to Russ. 

 

Which brings me to the next parts of why Russ had to be holding back.  He either was unwilling or not allowed to kill Angron.  If you reference "And we all know that Angron would die before losing to Russ".  It just adds another reason why Russ could not win the duel. 

 

Now for the deployment issues with how the fighting took place.  If you want to beieve that Russ was giving it his all.  Then you have to accept that the SWs forced the World Eater's Elite back.  That's Lhorke, Khârn, the other Captains and the Devourers.  Not only forced them back but cut them off from Angron and held them back.  From what we have seen of how the World Eaters fight.  A SW spear  charging forward, encircling their Primarch and putting up the best fight along the front.  Would have attracted more World eaters.  Making the scene where Angron looks around and sees to few World Eaters to beak the SW line.  Just fall flat, especially when he looks out and sees his legion tearing through their cousins.

 

That's not to say that if Russ was giving it his all he would have won.  I'm just saying that in this case the scene only makes sence if Russ was not prepared/willing to kill Angron.  Because that is what would have happened if Russ had won.  Angron would never stop, he can't.  It is Russ' fault for engaging Angron if he was not or could not fight to his full potential.  Meaning he deserved every bit of the beating he took.

[High MarshalGR]

@Stonerhino: He indeed had those limitations. Just a howl, and Angron would be made of holes. Russ wasn't presented as a murderer, but as an honorable leader. He went there not to kill, but to "reveal" to Angron something he didn't comprehend. As far as "all-out" goes, we need to remember Russ wasn't braindead. He wanted to make the point you talked about above. 

[b1soul]

 

 

 

Consider this. Russ wins the duel. Then there is no leson to be taught. The whole reason the Wolves are there is to convince Angron to stop with the nails.

No...if Russ batters Angron into submission and has him at his mercy, of course there's a lesson to be taught: "I have you at my mercy now, my sons are even here to back me up. Your sons don't even try to save you when you need them the most"

Let me ask you b1soul...Why did Angron lowered his axe ??? Out of

brotherly love or because Russ told him "Hey dude, where are your men to

back you?

Do you really think that if Angron were 100% committed to killing Russ right then and there, he'd stop for let Russ speak? Angron probably lowered his axe because in his mind, he was already the victor. He won the duel, he beat Russ to a pulp and the other primarch had to crawl away. Angron probably thought he had proved himself the better warrior.

 

Aaron said the scene was balanced. How would it be balanced if the Wolves outmaneuvred the World Eaters and Angron smashed Russ only because Russ was letting him? There's no balance in that. That would mean the Wolves really won on the battlefield, but Angron's victory in the duel was illusory.