Scars

[High MarshalGR]

I think that he didn't examine the victor b1soul. He merely said Russ might have held back, because the reason he did what he did was really different than Angron's, so Russ might have held back to bring the battlefield to the condition he wished. That's not to say that if Russ gave his all he would have won, it says he didn't have the same killing potential Angron illustrated all Great Crusade along and after that. That's what I think Stonerhino meant, and I think it is really hard to examine Russ's mind. He may have held back, he may have not. He is well versed after all, so he might have created such a plan.

[DarthMarko]

b1 -Nobody is denying that Russ was beaten 1 on 1 fair and square but consider what one howl (like High MarshalGR nicely put it) would have done to that situation.....Angron is superman, and Russ is batman with kryptonite ring in his pocket...I would go that 10/10 Angron wins against any primarch in Arena, but on the battlefield he has no chance against Russ when safety is off  - and this is only because of nails buzzing in his head which are also making him a melee beast - IMHO....

 

Also if Russ (read : his legion) had killed Angron, well Empy wouldn't be to happy I presume, and Russ would be the third missing primarch :-)

[Kais Klip]

Once more into the breach I see. The Russ Vs Angron fight was never a fight to the death. You might point at the atrocious blood being shed either side of them but these are primarchs and to Angron he is loosing skittles while Russ is loosing furry pets. It had all the chances of resolving fataly, yes, but never a fight which is as equal as it is between two primarchs. Think Lion vs Curze, Perturabo vs Fulgrim, Fulgrim vs Manus, all examplars of an even fight put up, all with a loser that is held at the mercy of the over. This wasn't bloody post heresy, this was a pre-heresy, fraternal brother bitch-slap contest over who is right and who is not. Live weapons, airborne teeth and slain sons mean nothing unusual to primarchs. 

 

Russ' point was a demonstration, meaning Angron had zero chance of getting killed because the winner was always going to stand over the other and gloat. Now this is the fine point; if this whole thing wasn't a demonstration, wasn't a slap fight, but was a "real" battle, sure, Russ, or rather Russ' men, would have killed Angron. However however however, the demonstration was reliant on the whole fact that this was a demonstration, that there would be a moment where one would say "stop, look at this", and such a moment would be absent if this was not a demonstration, and Angron was Siege of Terraing for his "brother". 

 

This in turn brings us to the point of; we can't fairly measure up what if's and what if not's, meaning we cant fairly say who would have lived and who died if this was a real battle. The best thing we can say, is through assuming that the progress of this demonstrative fight was somewhat indicative of a real fight, meaning no variables, short of Angron staying his hand, would change. This means Angron cuts down Russ in combat, and Russ' men, Russ' legion, thus Russ himself cuts down Angron in reply. 

 

Now come on lads, there is no shame for either side, so lets leave it at that. 

 

"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning."

[A D-B]

b1 -Nobody is denying that Russ was beaten 1 on 1 fair and square but consider what one howl (like High MarshalGR nicely put it) would have done to that situation.....Angron is superman, and Russ is batman with kryptonite ring in his pocket...I would go that 10/10 Angron wins against any primarch in Arena, but on the battlefield he has no chance against Russ when safety is off  - and this is only because of nails buzzing in his head which are also making him a melee beast - IMHO....

 

That's supposition, not fact. You can say the magic howl would've won the fight. Someone else can say that Angron had a trick of his own. Resistance to it, somehow. Or maybe he'd have stepped up to 11, instead of fighting at 10.

 

There's no evidence to say Angron is better in the arena and Russ is better on the battlefield. In fact, before Betrayer, the only evidence for anything related to this was Corax saying Angron was the one primarch that would whomp all the others in a fight. You can assume Russ would win (though, why assume that? What evidence is there?) just as you can assume Angron would win. Both are assumptions. 

 

it's important to have perspective on this. To realise that not every opinion is a direct counter or an insult - too many threads are ruined by the same 2 or 3 Space Wolf die-hards refusing all reasonable debate. It's been mostly avoided here, thankfully, but that post declaring X is true and Y is false is starting to tread close to unreasonable bias. It's difficult to debate something assumed as absolute fact, with no evidence.

 

The entire point of the Night of the Wolf is explained in Kais Klip's post, quoted below. And in Betrayer itself.

 

If you want the whole, unashamed, absolute truth, it's simple. One day, Angron would win. On another, Russ would win. It all comes down to circumstances and context, just like every fight between equals and near-equals. If that's not clear from the Heresy series so far, I'll weep into my coffee.

 

 

Once more into the breach I see. The Russ Vs Angron fight was never a fight to the death. You might point at the atrocious blood being shed either side of them but these are primarchs and to Angron he is loosing skittles while Russ is loosing furry pets. It had all the chances of resolving fataly, yes, but never a fight which is as equal as it is between two primarchs. Think Lion vs Curze, Perturabo vs Fulgrim, Fulgrim vs Manus, all examplars of an even fight put up, all with a loser that is held at the mercy of the over. This wasn't bloody post heresy, this was a pre-heresy, fraternal brother bitch-slap contest over who is right and who is not. Live weapons, airborne teeth and slain sons mean nothing unusual to primarchs. 

 

Russ' point was a demonstration, meaning Angron had zero chance of getting killed because the winner was always going to stand over the other and gloat. Now this is the fine point; if this whole thing wasn't a demonstration, wasn't a slap fight, but was a "real" battle, sure, Russ, or rather Russ' men, would have killed Angron. However however however, the demonstration was reliant on the whole fact that this was a demonstration, that there would be a moment where one would say "stop, look at this", and such a moment would be absent if this was not a demonstration, and Angron was Siege of Terraing for his "brother". 

 

This in turn brings us to the point of; we can't fairly measure up what if's and what if not's, meaning we cant fairly say who would have lived and who died if this was a real battle. The best thing we can say, is through assuming that the progress of this demonstrative fight was somewhat indicative of a real fight, meaning no variables, short of Angron staying his hand, would change. This means Angron cuts down Russ in combat, Russ' men cut down Angron. 

 

Now come on lads, there is no shame for either side, so lets leave it at that. 

 

"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning."

 

Awesome. Awesome. Thank you.

 

Y'see how deep and interesting and nuanced the 40K setting can be once the "MY GUYS ARE THE BEST" idiocy is dispensed with? 

[Conn Eremon]

Man, A D-B, you have a way with words. Have you thought about seeking a career with them?

 

Now that the Night of the Wolf's very author has weighed in on the matter, perhaps this off-topic train of discussion can be dropped and we can go back to discussing some White Scars?

 

Anyone reading the serialized e-book got something new to share?

[A D-B]

Man, A D-B, you have a way with words. Have you thought about seeking a career with them?

 

Now that the Night of the Wolf's very author has weighed in on the matter, perhaps this off-topic train of discussion can be dropped and we can go back to discussing some White Scars?

 

Bah. I've weighed in a dozen times, as have countless people that understand the scene, using quotes, layered explanations, and God knows what else. Joking aside, some people don't want to buy into the truth. They want their version of things to be true. So "they" can "win" and don't "look worse" than the people that collect different colour toy soldiers.

 

This profits no one. Back to Scars, with ye.

[Kais Klip]

Follow me to thread glory! Khan's "niche" is beautiful fighting. Angron butchers, Horus maims, Fulgrim skillfully kills, but when Khan cuts you down, he cuts you down fabulously. 

 

I never saw it coming, I think we will all be intrigued by this new direction they are taking for the V legion. 

 

Edit: Well not really beautiful fighting, but fighting and leading with a carefree soul.

[Conn Eremon]

Can you give more of a description? You make it sound like he fights like an Asian martial arts fantasy movie. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Khan?

 

Just caught the edit. Not sure I can imagine what carefree fighting is like.

[Kais Klip]

Well the whole legion mentality has been revealed as the type that yearns to feel their hair blow in the wind. The word escapes me. Spiritually and culturally keen, and they regard warfare as an art more so than any other legion. So far the examples of this is the poetry, and other "Noble Pursuits" they create after campaigns. As for Khan, the beautiful remark is an epiphany one legionnaire has when he is musing as to why his primarch has been out of the public spotlight, with Guilliman having hsi own empire and Horus turning warmaster. He comes to the conclusion that no one else has seen him, and that "killing is nothing without beauty, and it may only be beautiful if it is necessary. When the Khan kills, it is beautiful."

[Emperor's Furor]

Khan also has some sort of blinding aura like the Emperor has.

[Kais Klip]

Missed that, isn't that all the primarchs though to small willed humans? 

[Conn Eremon]

WoT, most authors have described Primarchs as such. It's an easy way to convey the awe such beings inspire.

 

Kais, that is interesting. Doesn't say anything of his style, but it says something about his personality. The Khan kills only when necessary, because otherwise it isn't beautiful.

[RapatoR]

Man I am really hyped for this. I really like Scars and I loved their depiction in BoS.

 

 

It will be really interesting to see Scars fighting far outside their confort zone and also tension between WS and SW (when they arrive). There is much to look forward to.

 

[Emperor's Furor]

Missed that, isn't that all the primarchs though to small willed humans? 

 

 

WoT, most authors have described Primarchs as such. It's an easy way to convey the awe such beings inspire.

 

Kais, that is interesting. Doesn't say anything of his style, but it says something about his personality. The Khan kills only when necessary, because otherwise it isn't beautiful.

I don't know, it didn't come across as the usual "stunned by seeing them" the Khan literally blinded the munitorium general when she first met him, I think this was contrasted with Horus as well at the time but he didn't blind her as far as I can recall.

[Kais Klip]

Man I am really hyped for this. I really like Scars and I loved their depiction in BoS.

 

 

It will be really interesting to see Scars fighting far outside their confort zone and also tension between WS and SW (when they arrive). There is much to look forward to.

 

 

I'm looking forward to that as well, although rather how the Scars try to distance themselves from the Wolves and their embrace of their "savages" label. Definitely needs a scornful "what a noble savage" line somewhere. Loving the detached outlook of Torghun, we will definitely get some good observations from him. 

 

Bah who am I fooling, I'm just looking forward to the alpha legion kicking some arse, YEAH! OMEGON PRIMARCH BEST PRIMARCH BABY!

[Kol Saresk]

Have you ever seen something so beautiful that you just stopped and watched? But afterwards couldn't even remember what it looked like? I think that's what the Primarchs are like.

[Conn Eremon]

Staring at a Primarch is like staring at a beautiful, complex painting framed by the sun. There's just so much detail, but the intensity overwhelms and forces you to avert your eyes, the memory of it pale in comparison.

[Kais Klip]

Nitpicking but not beautiful, even Fulgie wasn't handsome by mortal means, rather more like a gut deep awe-striking I believe, similar to what cats do to mice. 

 

Closest I can relate to is turning a corner in a foreign gym locker and face planting into the abs of an 8 or 9 foot "man". Now I am a somewhat short, 85kg stocky man but for the split second we held eye contact I was utterly transfixed in place, limbs frozen and unable to even mumble an apology. Now I am a cocky guy but deep inside I knew that I could not have done a single thing if the guy decided to murder me right there and then in that sweaty locker. I came home that night and ate my greens. 

 

Edit: the Emperor was beautiful, if he chose to be, and to that extent I think Magnus would be as well, but the primarchs were more like very striking statues of rock than attractive.

[Conn Eremon]

Aye, the Primarchs are meant to be awe-inspiring in the older sense of the word. Equal parts glorious and terrifying.

[Kol Saresk]

Kais, you what I do in situations? Aim for the weak spot and then run like Jerry.

[Kais Klip]

Kol there was no way my foot was reaching that high, and I fear a verve uppercut would only have pleased him. I was glad my subconscious took over and implemented a sound practical. I was pretty sure his vision relied on movement. And he wasn't even as wide as I imagine an Astartes to be, and as for a Primarch... well at that point you might as well scurry away into the undergrowth. 

 

What I am unsure about is the reason for the remarked discrimination towards non-east Asian inductees, at least before Khan and Chogoris rolled along. Was the affinity for mongol like warfare a product of this discrimination or was it the parent?  

[High MarshalGR]

Well the whole legion mentality has been revealed as the type that yearns to feel their hair blow in the wind. The word escapes me. Spiritually and culturally keen, and they regard warfare as an art more so than any other legion. So far the examples of this is the poetry, and other "Noble Pursuits" they create after campaigns. As for Khan, the beautiful remark is an epiphany one legionnaire has when he is musing as to why his primarch has been out of the public spotlight, with Guilliman having hsi own empire and Horus turning warmaster. He comes to the conclusion that no one else has seen him, and that "killing is nothing without beauty, and it may only be beautiful if it is necessary. When the Khan kills, it is beautiful."

 

This is what I find so awesome about them Scars. The reason they do what they do is not so far away from SW, but it's still different and their own. Their organization and various titles reveal how they approach war. Master of the Hunt and the Stormseekers really fascinates me as a concept.

[gogmagog]

We, any more titbits from the Scars book?

[Kol Saresk]

Kol there was no way my foot was reaching that high, and I fear a verve uppercut would only have pleased him. I was glad my subconscious took over and implemented a sound practical. I was pretty sure his vision relied on movement. And he wasn't even as wide as I imagine an Astartes to be, and as for a Primarch... well at that point you might as well scurry away into the undergrowth.

 

What I am unsure about is the reason for the remarked discrimination towards non-east Asian inductees, at least before Khan and Chogoris rolled along. Was the affinity for mongol like warfare a product of this discrimination or was it the parent?

lol on the man-giant.

 

Wait, there was discrimination against non-east Asians?

[b1soul]

I think it is really hard to examine Russ's mind. He may have held back,

he may have not. He is well versed after all, so he might have created

such a plan.

 

Very true. Although I think it would be very risky to hold back against a primarch as dangerous and volatile as Angron.

 

b1 -Nobody is denying that Russ was beaten 1 on 1 fair and square

 

 

There are people saying Russ lets Angron beat him to make a point. There are also people saying Russ is not fighting to kill whereas Angron is.

 

I have two counterpoints to make...

 

if Angron had been hell-bent on killing Russ, he wouldn't have stopped to let Russ speak. One of the following scenarios (not in the book) would've likely happened:

1. Angron tries to finish Russ, but is gunned down by the surrounding SW before he can do it

2. Angron finishes Russ and is gunned down down shortly thereafter by the surrounding SW

3. Angron finishes Russ, carves his way through some of the surrounding SW but is eventually worn down and killed by massed fire.

 

My second point is that Russ could've made his point just as convincingly by beating Angron (without killing him) and then pointing out that none of the World Eaters are trying to help their primarch in his time of greatest peril.

 

 

 

It will be really interesting to see Scars fighting far outside their

confort zone and also tension between WS and SW (when they arrive).

There is much to look forward to.

 

 

Yes, the relationship between the WS and SW, the two "barbarian" legions,

has so much potential to be intriguing. Collected Visions describes the

two primarchs as the closest of brothers but I think Brotherhood of the

Storm retcons that. Apparently, the Khan is only close to Horus.

 

Well the whole legion mentality has been revealed as the type that yearns to

feel their hair blow in the wind. The word escapes me. Spiritually and

culturally keen, and they regard warfare as an art more so than any

other legion.

 

It almost seems like they view war as an expression of the soul. Of the combatant's true nature. The White Scars fight with savagery, swiftness, exuberance, and almost a wild, devil-may-care spirit sometimes. The SW "pretend" to be barbarians, but the Scars seem to be more honest in the sense that what you see is what you get. War is almost like an artform they enjoy. Whereas most other legions approach war more as a science. Even the Space Wolves are very practical and efficient. The Scars seem to be more concerned about fighting in the way they enjoy.

 

 

What I am unsure about is the reason for the remarked discrimination towards

non-east Asian inductees, at least before Khan and Chogoris rolled

along. Was the affinity for mongol like warfare a product of this

discrimination or was it the parent?

 

Most likely, the Scars have a tribal/clannish mentality. They just want to induct people who look like them. Since the original colonists of Chogoris were of East Asian descent, they pick Terrans from hive cities with mostly East Asian inhabitants