Scars

[Daemon2027]

According to collected visions, the Alpha Legion should win their battles against the Space Wolves, and if I remember the White Scars decide its not worth it and head for Terra. That may be changed of course.

 

I think calling the Alpha Legion a Mary Sue legion is a bit harsh. I admit they were a bit ridiculous in Deliverance Lost at times, but that was hardly the best of book with the Raven Guard acting ever so dumb for huge chunks of it. It would be nice to see the Alpha Legion shown fighting in a prope engagement.

 

Anyway I'm looking forward to this book.

[Excessus]

Yes Brannick, going into a sun and sacrificing yourself for the legion ideal kinda kills you...unfortunately... :(

[Cerbero666]

The Heresy era Ultramarines are Sues.

 

By what possible chain of logic do you start with "Your Primarch was broken by the Red Angel. Your homeworlds are ash. The people you rule are slaughtered by raging madmen. Your generals and heroes are skinned alive to exalt the True Pantheon" and arrive at "SUUUUEEEEE"?

 

Because even with that all they keep being the most awesome legion of them all. They aren't broken as the Raven Guard, The Salamanders, or the Iron Hands, even when their worlds are burning. Their primarch can stand a fight against Lorgar and Angron even when he was wounded not so long ago by a shard of the same weapon that almost get Horus killed (a wound to the neck), what I admit I found totally awesome (shut up Lorgar). Calth is in ashes but they can get rid off the Word Bearers without too much difficulty in the catacombs. They are good at long range, close range combat, masters tacticians, their legion is one of the two most larger in size. I'm not saying they're totally Mary Sues, obviously they got to be punched in the face and stabbed in the back, this is the Horus Heresy, but even in that moment they're awesome, and most of all flawless. All the legions have some flaw or another: The Space Wolves are fearsome warriors, but are too hot blooded and "lapdogs", the Imperial Fist are the last stand guys, but are some kind of emo, the Blood Angels got the Red Thirtst, the Dark Angels the "not too well hidden secret" and the proud of Lion as a flaw, the White Scars their isolation, and the list goes on. The only thing I don't like about the Ultras, and makes me laugh when I heard about other legions being Mary Sues, is that the Ultramarines are apparently flawless. Maybe their only flaw is their proud, but it even hasn't been stated as that. In the case of Lion the proud is a flaw, but if Guilliman is proud then it's so awesome...

 

But in the other hand I like the Ultramarines roman/greek style, the 500 worlds empire, the spartan imaginery, etc... But it pissed me off because I personally don't like a character, group, or legion in this particular matter, that is flawless. I hope the reunion in Ultramar in Unremembered Empire shows us the weakness of the Ultramarines, seriously I would love them if they got a really interesting flaw, the same way I love the other legions by their weakness not only their strong points. I can imagine a situation where Sang tells Guilliman: "You know brother you're perfect in all kind of stuff except one, you are too X" A merely recognition from a direct POV that the Ultras are Space Marines too, and they have their own failures. 

 

And please don't say I hate they Ultramarines because that isn't true, I only want them to be more than poster guys. 

[Kol Saresk]

Yes Brannick, going into a sun and sacrificing yourself for the legion ideal kinda kills you...unfortunately...

Sunburn, Super effective, Critical hit. Fatality!

[Brannick]

@ Shadow - I couldn't possibly divulge my source!

@ Excessus - have we actually seen Sheed Ranko and/or the planetoid hit the sun? (I haven't followed the audio dramas or novellas, so I don't know if the impact has ever been disclosed).

[Kol Saresk]

Well there was no way for them to get off and since the installation was confirmed destroyed, I think we can say the impact was confirmed.

[Excessus]

@ Shadow - I couldn't possibly divulge my source!

@ Excessus - have we actually seen Sheed Ranko and/or the planetoid hit the sun? (I haven't followed the audio dramas or novellas, so I don't know if the impact has ever been disclosed).

No, but he wouldn't allow any of them to be rescued (unless a freak accident made the sun suddenly disappear entirely...which is not going to happen), since it would compromise the secrecy of the mission. That's what the whole last part is about...what does the primarch ask of you? Everything!

The tenebrae mission must be kept secret at all costs, Omegon can't risk having Sheed Ranko unwittingly giving away something to Alpharius...since Omegon lies to Alpharius...

[fire magnet]

The white scar in the bottom left corner, is that an eye of Horus inside an eight pointed chaos star on his shoulder plate?

[Conn Eremon]

The emblem does have eight points but I don't see anything at all that resembles the Eye of Horus and its a very non-Chaosy eight-pointed emblem.

[fire magnet]

i couldnt really tell, (even with my nose to the screen) whether it was an oval with a slit, like an eye, in the middle or not.

[Wade Garrett]

Guilliman was wounded by Kor Phaeron's ATHAME.

 

Horus was almost killed by ANATHAME. Note the extra letters. The latter is orders of magnitude more killier (Is too a word!) than the former.

 

I suppose it's possible said athame was one of the Shards of Erebus, but like Anathame, those require the wielder to speak the target's name to use the full deadly effects, which Kor did not do.

 

His decision to toy with Rob instead of finishing the fight led to the Seventeenth losing control of the defense grid and the battle. BAD Master of Faith. BAD!

 

Also, Rob did not fight Angron and Lorgar at the same time. He fought the Urizen, THEN the Eater of Worlds.

 

"The two primarchs fell into a seamless, roaring duel exactly where Lorgar and Guilliman had abandoned theirs. This high on the overlooking hill, the water was a dim and distant concern. Lorgar heard its serpent-hissing flow, but spared it no mind. It didn't matter. All that mattered was the song."

Betrayer, page 367

[b1soul]

Guys, I think they're most likely arguing about whether to help the Wolves or to abandon them.

 

 They get their asses handed to them repeatedly,

 

The few well-known characters they have is picked off one by one in every novel it seems, and all new characters introduced invariably dies.

 

The Alpha Legion kill each other. I've yet to see them get their asses handed to them by loyalists, who are usually portrayed as too dumb to counter the genius AL

[Kol Saresk]

Actually all the Alpha Legion who died In Deliverance Lost in the end would have been killed by the Raven Guard. A pyrrhic victory of sorts, but could be considered an "ass-kicking". Of course, like everything else in 40K fluff, it all depends on your point of view.

[Cerbero666]

Guilliman was wounded by Kor Phaeron's ATHAME.

 

Horus was almost killed by ANATHAME. Note the extra letters. The latter is orders of magnitude more killier (Is too a word!) than the former.

 

I suppose it's possible said athame was one of the Shards of Erebus, but like Anathame, those require the wielder to speak the target's name to use the full deadly effects, which Kor did not do.

 

His decision to toy with Rob instead of finishing the fight led to the Seventeenth losing control of the defense grid and the battle. BAD Master of Faith. BAD!

 

Also, Rob did not fight Angron and Lorgar at the same time. He fought the Urizen, THEN the Eater of Worlds.

 

"The two primarchs fell into a seamless, roaring duel exactly where Lorgar and Guilliman had abandoned theirs. This high on the overlooking hill, the water was a dim and distant concern. Lorgar heard its serpent-hissing flow, but spared it no mind. It didn't matter. All that mattered was the song."

Betrayer, page 367

The Athame to the neck plus the time he spent in the void caused him visible effects in his face, but even then he could fight against Lorgar AND Angron, I didn't say he fought at the same time with both of them, that would had been awesome even to Guilliman's standards. Besides I think A-D-B did it well making Angron kicks a little bit of Guilliman's ass at the end. The think I was saying is that after a brutal attack to his realm, and being wounded, he goes to a planet attacked by two legions (or one and a half) with his own legion crippled, and stand against two of his brother in fight, doesn't being killed in the process. C'mon, Ferrus couldn't endure against Fulgrim, Magnus was beaten by Russ, Curze almost killed Dorn, but Roboute fight against Lorgar post Pilgrimage, and with a just about to become Daemon Prince Angron and he doesn't die, Lucky Guilliman had to be called.

 

But you have been selective with the things I stated in my previous post, just taken the fight against his brothers. I would like to add one more thing: Why if Dorn, Ferrus or anyone else took a decision like go berserker and charge against the enemy (Retribution Fleet, Istvaan V) it sounds stupid and a mistake, but if Roboute does it is so brave and awesome? When Guilliman showed up in Nuceria I was like, man that's a bad decision, your legion is crippled, you are wounded, you just can't jump into the fight against two other legions (or one and a half) just because you are furious, that doesn't sounds like Guilliman, the master tactician Guilliman, it sounds like Russ, or Angron himself. But when he shows up saying "Lorgar bring here your ass, I want to kick it" its depicted as being so ubeatable, awesome and brave that it shocks you. I even said ok, that wasn't a mistake instead was epic, even when you got to runaway in the last moment because they were gonna kill you and the rest of your legion.

 

As I said if someone like Sang, or any other loyal primarch would say to him: "Bro, that was pretty stupid", I would be ok, perfect, someone realizing that even RG makes mistakes. But it would probably be represented as a glorious, brave and proudly moment to his legion, when the great Guilliman searched for revenge against his traitorous brothers (the same mistake that Dorn f'rex made in the Iron Cage, or Ferrus in Istvaan V, tactically unwise). So maybe they aren't the common type of Mary Sues, but it's like there's a sphere of awesomness surrounding the legion, and everything they do, even the wrong or stupid things, become a reason to praise them. I believe that A-D-B tried to show us that Guillliman makes things wrong too, in the moment of the fight, but he wrote the moment when the primarch shows up so well that it seems epic, and not an stupid act. I hope that's a first step for Roboute "humanization", because as some primarch said in other novel, they are all humans, and they have human flaws.

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

Have you actually read Betrayer?

 

Because Guilliman didn't attack two entire Legions with the shattered remains of his one...it is REPEATEDLY stated that Lorgar and Angron are traveling with small portions of their forces after scattering the bulk of the Word Bearers and World Eaters throughout Ultramar to kill, maim and burn.

 

For that matter, the opposing forces were in the middle of razing the planet they were on, they hadn't had weeks to prepare and fortify the way Perturabo's boys did when Dorn tried to commit suicide by Iron Warrior.

 

So no, it wasn't like Isstvan V or the Iron Cage at all.

 

As for Guilliman being wounded, Lorgar was up and back in the fighting at Isstvan minutes after having Corax pull most of his entrails out. Angron went right back to carving his way through Armatura after having a skyscraper dropped on his head and a Warhound Titan try to stomp him to death.

 

But delicate Roboute is still incapacitated from a neck wound and some void exposure? C'mon.

[Cerbero666]

Have you actually read Betrayer?

 

Because Guilliman didn't attack two entire Legions with the shattered remains of his one...it is REPEATEDLY stated that Lorgar and Angron are traveling with small portions of their forces after scattering the bulk of the Word Bearers and World Eaters throughout Ultramar to kill, maim and burn.

 

For that matter, the opposing forces were in the middle of razing the planet they were on, they hadn't had weeks to prepare and fortify the way Perturabo's boys did when Dorn tried to commit suicide by Iron Warrior.

 

So no, it wasn't like Isstvan V or the Iron Cage at all.

 

As for Guilliman being wounded, Lorgar was up and back in the fighting at Isstvan minutes after having Corax pull most of his entrails out. Angron went right back to carving his way through Armatura after having a skyscraper dropped on his head and a Warhound Titan try to stomp him to death.

 

But delicate Roboute is still incapacitated from a neck wound and some void exposure? C'mon.

 

Have you actually read Betrayer?

 

Because Guilliman didn't attack two entire Legions with the shattered remains of his one...it is REPEATEDLY stated that Lorgar and Angron are traveling with small portions of their forces after scattering the bulk of the Word Bearers and World Eaters throughout Ultramar to kill, maim and burn.

 

For that matter, the opposing forces were in the middle of razing the planet they were on, they hadn't had weeks to prepare and fortify the way Perturabo's boys did when Dorn tried to commit suicide by Iron Warrior.

 

So no, it wasn't like Isstvan V or the Iron Cage at all.

 

As for Guilliman being wounded, Lorgar was up and back in the fighting at Isstvan minutes after having Corax pull most of his entrails out. Angron went right back to carving his way through Armatura after having a skyscraper dropped on his head and a Warhound Titan try to stomp him to death.

 

But delicate Roboute is still incapacitated from a neck wound and some void exposure? C'mon.

 

Yes, I read Betrayer. Guilliman comes, jump against two of his brothers (triying to kill them both?) and their forces, and then he run away because things go wrong (and not just because of the daemonic ascension, btw), but that's a victory to Guilliman of course and wasn't a mistake of his planning, because the Ultramarines always win, even when they lose. It wasn't like Istvaan V or the Iron Cage? I still see Lorgar and Angron both of them "alive", their warriors up to fight another day, and Guilliman withdrawing to survive, with more losses to his legion and a nice new face. What's the problem with accept that once in his live Roboute Guilliman made a mistake? He wasn't thinking clearly, he was surprised, in the novel it's stated that Lorgar see hatred in his eyes for the first time. Guilliman was angry, he didn't think twice and was a wrong decision, just that. Dorn isn't less awesome for the Iron Cage, or Ferrus for Istvaan V, or Lion for trusting Perturabo. Not even the Emperor always succeeds. You're corroborating my point, the Ultramarines and their primarch are armored against the flaws and criticism, and that in my opinion, is a mistake. 

 

I accept your point on the wound because we can't really know how much hurt can do an athame. But the point was that he aimed to kill two of his brothers. Just one to one is a hard fight, two consecutive primarchs against just one? or if the things had been worse, two against one at the same time? You don't have to be a tactical genius to realize that's a reaaally hard fight. 

 

And let's forget this, because we're eclipsing the post with our discussion. 

[Wade Garrett]

I don't mind criticizing Guilliman or his Legion...when it's justified.

 

But portraying the Battle of Nuceria as Rob charging headfirst at a force that outnumbers him with half his face painted blue screaming "FREEEEDOM!" isn't.

 

No, it wasn't a win for the Ultras, but it wasn't a one sided drubbing like the Night Lords got at Thramas, the loyalists in general took at Isstvan, or Dorn received at the Iron Cage.

 

Leaving aside the good tactical sense of attacking enemy commanders when they're seperated from the bulk of their armies, it's mentioned that Guilliman's astropaths could sense Lorgar's warpsong, and while it's unlikely they knew specifics they could tell Lorgar was up to something bad...Rob should just sit on his duff and wait for the Ruinstorm to break over his head?

 

Not to mention that the Ultras managed to withdraw with their Primarch, leaving Lorgar's flagship destroyed and Angron's dead in space...to quote Lotarra Sarrin "It's a good thing they're running, then."

[Kol Saresk]

The only thing that really saved the Traitors at Nurceria wasn't Angron's ascension, but the presence of the Trisagion. Most of the Ultramarine ships that weren't trying to land troops ended up breaking upon it like a wave on a cliff while the Conqueror and the Fidelitas Lex dealt with the landers. If it was just the two flagships, they would have been overrun and destroyed and a lot more Ultramarines than what originally landed would have attacked the ground forces. And the battle might have gone another way.

 

Remember Butcher's Nails the audiodrama? Even in that story, a much larger joint XII/XVII Legions fleet was worried about running into the Ultramarines. And that was Pre-Calth/Concurrent-to-beginning-of-Calth. When the only response forces would have been those that weren't involved in the mustering at Calth. Nurceria was post-Calth. That was every ship Guilliman could get his hands on. The two biggest things that killed him weren't "tactical blunders"(although flying blind can easily be considered a tactical blunder), but the aforementioned presence of the Trisagion and the fact that he couldn't transport the entire fleet in simultaneously, like the Lion did in the Thramas Crusade. Guilliman had to send his fleet in by waves and that was what effectively kicked his butt back to Macragge with whatever remnants he had left from that fiasco. To be honest, the only way he would have "come out on top" is that he survived.

 

But, to keep this topic from getting melta'd can we please get back on topic and just avoid any discussions regarding the words "Mary Sue" or anything that even remotely goes down that dark road?

[b1soul]

 it wasn't a one sided drubbing like the Night Lords got at Thramas

 

Hey at least Curze didn't have to be saved by one of his marines while another primarch chokes him out in the dirt...

[Lord Ragnarok]

According to collected visions, the Alpha Legion should win their battles against the Space Wolves, and if I remember the White Scars decide its not worth it and head for Terra. That may be changed of course.

 

I think calling the Alpha Legion a Mary Sue legion is a bit harsh. I admit they were a bit ridiculous in Deliverance Lost at times, but that was hardly the best of book with the Raven Guard acting ever so dumb for huge chunks of it. It would be nice to see the Alpha Legion shown fighting in a prope engagement.

 

Anyway I'm looking forward to this book.

My recollection from collected visions was that they were winning but the SW's escaped with the "aid of an unexpected quarter". My assumption at this point is that Omegon may be behind that. 

[facmanpob]

it wasn't a one sided drubbing like the Night Lords got at Thramas

Hey at least Curze didn't have to be saved by one of his marines while another primarch chokes him out in the dirt...

.....errr....is this sarcasm?

If not, you need to read the first few pages of Prince of Crows by ADB .......

[Kol Saresk]

The first few pages of Prince of Crows had Curze's throat slashed. B1soul is referring to Savage Weapons when Curze was to kill the Lion and Corswain went all Brad Pitt in Troy, jumped off a rock and shoved a sword through Curze's spine, which saved his Primarch from death by strangulation.

[GrandMagnus]

I just want to add that the Ultramarines do have a flaw: "Disobeying the codex, even for a noble cause, is simply the first step towards the belief that the ends justify the means, and from the to total anarchy"  Now tell me how thinking that way is not a flaw. The Imperial Fists if I recall train their marines to be able to think for themselves if a dificult situation develops and sadly the Ultramarines kind of lack this. "If its not in the codex we dont do it".

 

But on the topic: Its good to see that the WS get some atention although I was a bit confused with the artwork at first, them fighting amoungst eachother.

[Wade Garrett]

The Imperial Fists if I recall train their marines to be able to think for themselves if a dificult situation develops and sadly the Ultramarines kind of lack this. "If its not in the codex we dont do it".

 

You recall wrong. Specifically, you recall wrong about the Fists. The Raven Guard might value independence and iniative, but sons of Dorn do their duty and obey orders to the letter. Always. End of story.

 

Look at the Retribution Fleet, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory thanks to the Praetorian's recall order.

[Kol Saresk]

If you had a five minute that might never come again to get out of a system that you are trapped in by warp storms, would you win the battle to possibly never participate in the war again or would you make strategic retreat so that you can lose the battle in order to potentially win the war?

 

Just look at the Word Bearers. Lorgar tells a good portion of them to go to Calth to die. They don't know they're supposed to die but many of them were happy to do it.