Skyfire problems and dealing with FMCs with CSMs

[Dallas Drake]

Hey guys,

 

I played a 3 FMCs list (amongst others) last night & to be honest I got battered.  I had a quad gun aegis but I was simply unable to ground any of his FMCs (Flygrants with w/twin-devourers).  I tried using bolters/autoguns/autocannons to force grounding tests, I tried everything.  What the hell are CSM supposed to do against this?  There is pretty much nothing in the codex to cope with this.  I also really suffer against dual Valk lists or anything with flyers to be honest, but against vehicles I find Heldrakes are a solid option - I run 2 and I find that they're much better against flyers & ground troops...  It's FMCs that are killing me (not to mention the Doom of Cheese, that is just silly OP).  Anyway, the way I feel about CSM right now is pretty glum, anyone know how to deal with FMCs (even 2 would pwn me).

 

 

My list

Lord, MoS, Brand, PW, SoC

Sorcerer, ML+2, Spell Familiar, SoC

 

Noise Marines w/Doom Siren & 2x Blastmasters

Noise Marines w/Doom Siren & 2x Blastmasters

 

15 Cultsts w/flamer

15 Cultsts w/flamer

 

Baledrake

Baledrake

 

Havocs w/Autocannon x 4 + 3 bodies

Havocs w/Autocannon x 4 + 3 bodies

 

Obliterators w/MoN x 3

 

Aegis w/Quad

 

2000 pts

 

 

 

 

Help appreciated!

 

Dallas

[nurglez]

was it not possible to vector strike them with your heldrakes? My tyranid opponent hates my heldrake as it usually kills his flyrant in 1 turn (2-4 wounds, then a grounding test as its been hit, then a flyrant shaped hole in the ground).

[Dallas Drake]

was it not possible to vector strike them with your heldrakes? My tyranid opponent hates my heldrake as it usually kills his flyrant in 1 turn (2-4 wounds, then a grounding test as its been hit, then a flyrant shaped hole in the ground).

 

Yeah, I did try that with the 1 Heldrake I had, it caused a wound & he passed his grounding test.  Problem with that though is he runs 3 all with Biomancy, lucky bugger got 2 with Iron Arm so they're running around with T7-9.  It is a solid tactic though, is it worth dropping the quad gun in order to get comms so my Heldrakes get on the table turn 2?  FMCs move so fast that getting the Heldrakes on turn 2 would really help, by turn 3 he was no longer swooping and glided so he could charge my Noise Marines, which can't hold up to a Hive Tyrant :'(

 

Dallas

[jocke01]

Well if he got 2 iron arm then I can see that you got battered but that happens very rarely, even by statistics he only get's 1 iron arm if he plays 3 flyrants at 260p each.

 

I play tyranids myself and I've seen my flyrants go down to lasguns, auto guns and anything with a S3 or higher.

 

Helldrakes that vector strike should be able to kill a tyrant per turn if the both go at the same one or at least put them down to 1 wound and you just need to spam every shot you have at them (combi bolters on rhinos heavy stubbers anything) since they have to take a grounding test for each time they get one or more hits on them. 

 

If they get iron arm thought that's really hard to face but they should only get 1 per match if he plays 3 of them.

[Sception]

What's the initiative on a Tyrant? 5? 6? You might trying playing the FMC game yourself, with a mace prince or allied bloodthirster. Both should splat a tyrant in melee. Allied slaaneshi daemons can also generally drag them down with rending attacks.

[Excessus]

Allied LoC, will whup the enemy MC/flier with melee/vector strikes/magic and buffs a unit with prescience as well!

[Dallas Drake]

What's the initiative on a Tyrant? 5? 6? You might trying playing the FMC game yourself, with a mace prince or allied bloodthirster. Both should splat a tyrant in melee. Allied slaaneshi daemons can also generally drag them down with rending attacks.

 

I think it's I5.  I could take a Mace Prince or a Bloodthirster, I have a Bloodthirster model but what would I use for the troop selection!? Meh, I have 20 Bloodletters painted but they strike me as being a bit lack lustre, a shame really because they would make a great allied detachment.  

 

I'm looking at the LoC that Excessus mentioned, though I'm not so sure about the LoC as he only has a 5++.

 

If I go with a FMC I need to make my army more attacking, one DP or BT will get isolated and dealt with, I might look at getting some more assault in there... Good options though, and I really need to get my units more MSU to force grounding tests. Thinking of 5 man NM squads & 10 man Cultists.

 

Dallas 

[EricBasser]

I don't believe vector strikes cause grounding tests. I believe the wording on grounding tests and vector strike being a movement phase attack.

[Phytoon]

I'd say drop the cultists. This seems to be a fairly high point list, and if you're looking to defeat a tyrant, they just can't quite manage it. On second thought, maybe if you clump them together they could manage. 30 Cultists with 3 heavy stubbers would be mean to say the least. If nothing else, don't run 10-man squads of cultists, they will not last.

 

As for skyfire options, we only really have one, and it's for the havocs. Just take the missile launchers with flakk missiles and BOOM - krak missiles with skyfire. It's not something I'd suggest for an all-comers list, but if you're that worried about flyers, it's worth taking.

[hornywingythingy]

If you want to ground fmc, you need multiple units firing, and to plan your shooting phase, first off try with your useless units (cultists, bolters on transports, squads that have been reduced in effectiveness) then, when they hit the deck, and they will, hit them with your oblits and stuff to polish them off. Remember you don't need to wound to cause a grounding check, just to hit.

 

Sounds like you were unlucky, mostly, at 2k you should be able to cope with tyranid fmc.

[Dallas Drake]

 

 

I don't believe vector strikes cause grounding tests. I believe the wording on grounding tests and vector strike being a movement phase attack.

 

Oh right. Good spot, so that hurts a bit.

 

I'd say drop the cultists. This seems to be a fairly high point list, and if you're looking to defeat a tyrant, they just can't quite manage it. On second thought, maybe if you clump them together they could manage. 30 Cultists with 3 heavy stubbers would be mean to say the least. If nothing else, don't run 10-man squads of cultists, they will not last.

 

As for skyfire options, we only really have one, and it's for the havocs. Just take the missile launchers with flakk missiles and BOOM - krak missiles with skyfire. It's not something I'd suggest for an all-comers list, but if you're that worried about flyers, it's worth taking.

 

 

Idea behind splitting the Cultists up is to get 3 grounding tests (3x10) rather than 1 (1x30).  Cultists die like flies whether there's 10 or 30 of them.

 

Not sure you what you're on about here. You can have flakk missiles but flakk are not krak, flakk pretty expensive & meh too, AP4 & that.  I could add one missile launcher to the autocannon squads to improve my chances of getting a hit & forcing a grounding test but flakk's don't grab me as much of a solution.  The real danger is this though, if I focus everything on his 3 Flygrants then the rest of the army gets untouched, 30 Gargoyles & 75 Hormagaunts etc can't be left untouched to hit my lines turn 3.  

 

I'm seriously looking at the Walls of Martyrs Firestorm Redoubt to be honest, it can not only force grounding tests but also ignore 3+, sure it's BS2 & has to shoot the closest flyer but quad-lascannons with skyfire & interceptor sounds like an interesting option for CSMs.

 

Dallas

[minigun762]

 

 

I'm seriously looking at the Walls of Martyrs Firestorm Redoubt to be honest, it can not only force grounding tests but also ignore 3+, sure it's BS2 & has to shoot the closest flyer but quad-lascannons with skyfire & interceptor sounds like an interesting option for CSMs.

 

Dallas

Firestorm is a pretty solid choice for pure AA, plus you can't target its guns to be destroyed. That said, the firing last thing is an issue to consider.

 

The other option is to start taking HadesDrakes instead. you'll average 2 hits that wound on 2's.

[Tenebris]

Actually the Hades Drake is a great unit to fight enemy fliers. The Hades has a 360 ark and this means that you fly in, vector strike the enemy flier and if it did not work you are in position to shoot at the rear armor of the enemy flier. Or so I have played it since the FAQ. The problem with the Helldrake as a dedicated anti flier unit is that you struggle to have a solid Vector Strike turn on the enemy flier and that the Baleflamer benefits the entire army, yet once you fly by you are in position to shoot at the rear of most vehicles and fliers with a strong gun. 

[nurglez]

But that means you are taking the hades cannon over the baleflamer, which is iffy. I'd take a hades on my second heldrake, but thats because I think 2 baleflamers is mean :D

 

I've grounded quite a few MC's with the combi bolters from my rhino, and my hades fiend likes to shoot them up too, but I don't know how I'd cope with 3 of them.

[Phytoon]

 

 

I'd say drop the cultists. This seems to be a fairly high point list, and if you're looking to defeat a tyrant, they just can't quite manage it. On second thought, maybe if you clump them together they could manage. 30 Cultists with 3 heavy stubbers would be mean to say the least. If nothing else, don't run 10-man squads of cultists, they will not last.

 

As for skyfire options, we only really have one, and it's for the havocs. Just take the missile launchers with flakk missiles and BOOM - krak missiles with skyfire. It's not something I'd suggest for an all-comers list, but if you're that worried about flyers, it's worth taking.

 

 

Idea behind splitting the Cultists up is to get 3 grounding tests (3x10) rather than 1 (1x30).  Cultists die like flies whether there's 10 or 30 of them.

 

Not sure you what you're on about here. You can have flakk missiles but flakk are not krak, flakk pretty expensive & meh too, AP4 & that.  I could add one missile launcher to the autocannon squads to improve my chances of getting a hit & forcing a grounding test but flakk's don't grab me as much of a solution.  The real danger is this though, if I focus everything on his 3 Flygrants then the rest of the army gets untouched, 30 Gargoyles & 75 Hormagaunts etc can't be left untouched to hit my lines turn 3.  

Well it appears that I misread my codex, sorry about that. It appears flakks aren't the best option afterall. 

 

I see your point with the three squads of cultists, but my main concern there is all the kill points you're practically handing him. But I'm having trouble thinking of a better option, so you do what you think is best.

 

Are Hive Tyrants fearless? I imagine not, but one other thing that comes to my mind is using a Slaanesh DP with psychic mastery and taking the primaris power for the Assault 4/S4/AP4 attack with blind concussive and pinning. The thought here is if you can't get him to fail a grounded test, you can make him take a bunch of other tests as well, and if he gets blinded he may as well be grounded. I know you don't want to bring just one prince, though, which makes this a bit hard to recommend, but maybe if you have one along with the drakes, the other guy will have to make a pretty tough choice. 

[Sception]

A hive tyrant is most certainly fearless. It is a synapse creature, after all, and as such is inherently within synapse range as long as it lives.

[Dallas Drake]

Hive Tyrants are definitely fearless. I guess MSU just suffers in KP missions (there's only 1 KP mission right?). I dunno, I'm leaning towards adding a Nurgle Daemon Prince with Mace & switching the Noise Marines to CSMs with MoS/MoN so I don't need the useless Slaanesh Lord.

[daboarder]

see I've been thinking slaanesh lord might be the character to come out the best from the new BL supplement, that +I daemon weapon on top of their already awesome I value means tehy are straight up punking HQ after HQ in combat.

[Dallas Drake]

see I've been thinking slaanesh lord might be the character to come out the best from the new BL supplement, that +I daemon weapon on top of their already awesome I value means tehy are straight up punking HQ after HQ in combat.

 

In my list he was on foot, he did nothing really, just sat there & babysat the NMs.  I think I need him on a steed or a bike.  Probably go steed because I don't like the look of bikes.  Outflank also gives me a way to get into an enemies deployment zone too.  I think hornywingythingy was on the money when it comes to bringing down FMCs tbh, that & I seriously like the redoubt, just because it has Interceptor too so shooting last in your shooting phase isn't that bad if you've used Interceptor already.

 

D

[Sception]

Not Hive Tyrants, though. Even with 4+d6 attacks and AP3, since you'd need 6s to damage the beast you're not likely to cause more than a flesh wound, after which the tyrant will splat you like a bug.

 

Also, there's not all that much in the game where Init 7 is meaningfully better than the Init 6 that a slaaneshi lord already has, or that a non-slaaneshi lord with the Black Legion's spineshiver already has for that matter. I think I'd rather put it on a Tzeentch lord for the 3++ save, or a nurgle lord (or bike lord especially) for the instant death mitigation. That's just me, though, if you face a lot of Init 6 or 7 enemies, then maybe that's more meaningful for you.

 

 

Now if you're going black legion and need some help against tyrants, there's always the Hand of whatever it's called. Reduces you to one attack, but its one S8, AP1 attack at init with armorbane, fleshbane, and instant death. IIRC, Hive tyrants are init 5 and don't generally have invulnerable saves or instant death mitigation, so a slaaneshi handlord, even with only one attack, has a good chance of slapping one down without a fight. Alternatively, there's still the nurgle bike version for avoiding instant death if your one attack misses. And you can still carry a power weapon or lightning claw for when your attacking normal enemies instead of monstrous creatures.

[minigun762]

I wonder if a squad of Autogun Cultists would be worth it to force grounding checks.

60 points for an average of 1.6 or 3.3 hits depending on range isn't horrible.

[Redtoof]

 

IIRC, Hive tyrants are init 5 and don't generally have invulnerable saves or instant death mitigation,

 

It's worth noting that hive tyrants don't have invulnerable saves or eternal warrior, but Iron Arm grants eternal warrior, so in the game in question they would be immune to instant death, as long as they kept passing psychic tests.

[Sception]

Never mind, then.

[Dallas Drake]

 

 

IIRC, Hive tyrants are init 5 and don't generally have invulnerable saves or instant death mitigation,

 

It's worth noting that hive tyrants don't have invulnerable saves or eternal warrior, but Iron Arm grants eternal warrior, so in the game in question they would be immune to instant death, as long as they kept passing psychic tests.

 

Jeez, I just checked my rulebook & you are spot on!  As if Iron Arm wasn't insanely good already!?  You know, the more I look at my Lords the more they're looking like Sorcerers to me, the ability to flip between Telepathy & Biomancy (or mix & match) is quite tempting.  I guess there's just that issue of missing Fearless & the lack of cult as troops but my Lords are probably getting punked in CC anyway, at least with Sorcerers I can do scary things like Invisibility, Psychic Scream, Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Warp Speed & Terrify.

 

I wonder if a squad of Autogun Cultists would be worth it to force grounding checks.

60 points for an average of 1.6 or 3.3 hits depending on range isn't horrible.

 

Yeah, I agree.  Get as many MSU units in there that can 'have a pop'.  I see this as the best, most point efficient way to force grounding tests, shelling out hundreds of points on dedicated AA makes me sad & kinda forces me to want to play gun line.

[hornywingythingy]

yeah, cultists, rhinos if you don't mind the risk of first blood, basically the msu build works brilliantly, especially anything cheap and twinlinked. Believe me, I run a flying circus (4 fmc at 1650) I know how easy they are to take down.