Scars Episode XI Updated 16/10 (Spoilers)

[Wade Garrett]

You He is saying that because of their beliefs and refusal to learn, it's no wonder the Space Wolves became hypocrites(assuming they were included in the Edict of Nikea), because in their eyes, they aren't.

I keep reading the Emperor's Edict in A Thousand Sons, and I can't seem to find the part that goes "Everybody stop fooling around with the Warp. Except for the Space Wolves, because they're my Executioner Legion and totally awesomer than the rest of you guys." Perhaps my copy contains some printing errors?

 

Do the Wolves think Nikea doesn't apply to them?

Si.

 

Are they demonstrably WRONG in universe, since Nikea's entire point was "Everybody stop fiddling around with the Warp" and Rune Priest powers work by fiddling around in the Warp?

 

Si.

 

Does the fact that they never figured out their powers run on the Warp like everyone else's, even when they can observe things like the Rune Powers getting blocked by the Sisters of Silence just like a Librarian's make them look as LEAST as misguided as the Word Bearers not getting the memo on that whole "Atheism rah rah rah!" thing?

 

Si, si, SI!

 

Sanguinius even states "The Emperor is assembling a carnival of monsters for his amusement, although I doubt whoever he unleashes them upon will see the jest".

Speaking of hypocrites.....

Let the Primarch whose gene sons don't flip out and drink the blood of their enemies and allies alike cast the first stone.

[Emperor's Furor]

To be fair the White Scars took the same approach, although they seemed to keep it a better secret than the Space Wolves did.

[Greyall]

 

As for the warriors of Cthonia and Nostromo being gangs being based on marauding and producing nothing of value to society, this is different from the Fenrisian Sea Reavers jumping off their long boats to pillage each other how?

It's different because the Fenrisian tribes war for a land to settle on for the year (or years, if they're lucky). They don't kill each other for practice or riches, they do it for land. You'll have exceptions, perhaps. Cthonian and Nostraman gangs, on the other hand, are based on killing and other crimes. The Cthonian gangs were said to have raided others just to keep practice.

 

And again, I'm not forgiving the Wolves, I'm saying we have an answer to that previous debate on whether they were disrespecting the Edict because they really believed their psykers drew from a purer well or because they saw themselves as executioners. It's the first one.

 

Edit: There's another matter I'd like to see discussed: do you agree with Khan when he says Fulgrim treats everything as a game? I find Pre-Heresy Fulgrim to be extremely professional, regardless of his and his sons' vanity. This seems to be a case of the Khan making a somewhat shallow analysis.

[High MarshalGR]

 

 

As for the warriors of Cthonia and Nostromo being gangs being based on marauding and producing nothing of value to society, this is different from the Fenrisian Sea Reavers jumping off their long boats to pillage each other how?

It's different because the Fenrisian tribes war for a land to settle on for the year (or years, if they're lucky). They don't kill each other for practice or riches, they do it for land. You'll have exceptions, perhaps. Cthonian and Nostraman gangs, on the other hand, are based on killing and other crimes. The Cthonian gangs were said to have raided others just to keep practice.

 

And again, I'm not forgiving the Wolves, I'm saying we have an answer to that previous debate on whether they were disrespecting the Edict because they really believed their psykers drew from a purer well or because they saw themselves as executioners. It's the first one.

 

Edit: There's another matter I'd like to see discussed: do you agree with Khan when he says Fulgrim treats everything as a game? I find Pre-Heresy Fulgrim to be extremely professional, regardless of his and his sons' vanity. This seems to be a case of the Khan making a somewhat shallow analysis.

 

I don't agree with him when he says that about Fulgrim Pre Heresy and to be more accurate, before he heard the whispers of the Laeran blade. That's not what his attitude back then implied at the very least.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, yes I do agree. We have a very limited view of Fulgrim before he found the Laeran blade. But the differences between him Pre- and Post-Laer is an exaggeration of traits that were already there. Fulgrim went to war the same way some people go to chess, an rts or even a tabletop game. He obeyed certain rules and tactics but ultimately, it was a game to him. The funnest game he ever played.

[Greyall]

Hmm...well, the Emperor's Children tend to measure their perfection levels mid-battle, that's true...but still, Fulgrim is still incredibly driven, even if he sees battles as games, that doesn't mean his compulsion towards victory and perfection doesn't make him sweat as much as the most serious man around.

[Kol Saresk]

Hmm...well, the Emperor's Children tend to measure their perfection levels mid-battle, that's true...but still, Fulgrim is still incredibly driven, even if he sees battles as games, that doesn't mean his compulsion towards victory and perfection doesn't make him sweat as much as the most serious man around.

Most definitely true. Just because he doesn't treat it as seriously as Angron or Mortarion, it doesn't mean that he doesn't care. He is a Primarch after all. Winning is in his blood.

 

But look at the dialogue between him and the others at Ullanor. He rates himself as a superb swordsman. But everyone else pretty much goes "No, you really aren't." And it actually strikes a match.

 

Fulgrim is that guy who walks into a room and everyone goes "Thou does see fit to grace us with thy presence."

[godking]

 

 

As for the warriors of Cthonia and Nostromo being gangs being based on marauding and producing nothing of value to society, this is different from the Fenrisian Sea Reavers jumping off their long boats to pillage each other how?

It's different because the Fenrisian tribes war for a land to settle on for the year (or years, if they're lucky). They don't kill each other for practice or riches, they do it for land. You'll have exceptions, perhaps. Cthonian and Nostraman gangs, on the other hand, are based on killing and other crimes. The Cthonian gangs were said to have raided others just to keep practice.

 

And again, I'm not forgiving the Wolves, I'm saying we have an answer to that previous debate on whether they were disrespecting the Edict because they really believed their psykers drew from a purer well or because they saw themselves as executioners. It's the first one.

 

Edit: There's another matter I'd like to see discussed: do you agree with Khan when he says Fulgrim treats everything as a game? I find Pre-Heresy Fulgrim to be extremely professional, regardless of his and his sons' vanity. This seems to be a case of the Khan making a somewhat shallow analysis.

The Khan was right about Fulgrim as driven as Fulgrim is he does see everything as a game and tends to be somewhat narrow in his thinking because of it. Hence Jagathai correctly viewing Fulgrim as stupid sometimes. Not because Fulgrim is lacking in intelligence but because his vain and somewhat shallow outlook prevents him at times from seeing the obvious.

[Augustus]

My mistake, Greayall.

 

Many hypocrites don't think think they are being hypocritical, however.  They think for whatever, reasons the rules don't apply to them as they apply to someone else.  I agree with you that the Wolves think something is inherently different about their Rune Priests which makes Nikea inapplicable to them. If we maintain this to be true, that they are not inherently different, and that they don't know this it CAN make them still hypocritical. (Pot calling the kettle black...maybe the pot doesn't know its black?) or if we are treating them more kindly it makes them mistaken.

 

Not saying your wrong with your views, just that I see it differently. (Or  I could still be misreading your analysis)

[DuskRaider]

Honestly, even a Fulgrim / Khan duel could happen on Terra. The Emperor's Children were there, but weren't very focused and were just kind of running about, so there's a chance the Khan could hunt Fulgrim down and make good on his word.

[DarthMarko]

"People" have blown ignorance attribute to much on the SW much like executioners theory..."People" not books....

 

+ Like Kol said - BL is just adding the oil on the fire, and not repairing anything - only making it worse....

 

So basically "Magnus the "thereAreNoGodsImSmarterthenEverybody " is not ignorant (in the end ) and the RP who think the main difference between them and TS is in self control"

 

are igonorant... Bravo....SW bashing is so popular these days....

 

 

 

Do the Wolves think Nikea doesn't apply to them?
Si.

Prove it - I wanna see the quote

 

Are
they demonstrably WRONG in universe, since Nikea's entire point was
"Everybody stop fiddling around with the Warp" and Rune Priest powers
work by fiddling around in the Warp?

Si.

Yep

 

 

Does the fact
that they never figured out their powers run on the Warp like everyone
else's, even when they can observe things like the Rune Powers getting
blocked by the Sisters of Silence just like a Librarian's make them look
as LEAST as misguided as the Word Bearers not getting the memo on that
whole "Atheism rah rah rah!" thing?

Si, si, SI!

Prove it

 

 

What I especially admire,’ said the
Thousand Sons Equerry, ‘is your hypocrisy. You hound us and harass us over our
so-called sorcery, yet you do not shrink from using it, shaman.’

‘There is a vast gulf between what I employ
for the good of the Rout and what you practise, warlock,’ Helwintr replied, ‘and the chief part of that gulf is
control. Only the naive would think that mankind could survive in the cosmos
without some measure of craft and cunning to protect him, but there is a limit.
A limit. We must know what we can master and what we cannot, and we must never
allow ourselves to step beyond that line. Tell me, how many steps have you
taken? One? Three? A dozen? A thousand?’

 

 

 

[Wade Garrett]

I would like everyone who plays Ultramarines to join me in playing a sad song on the world's tiniest fiddle for the poor picked on Space Puppies.

 

Pointing out that the Wolves are not the super special Legion isn't bashing them.

 

Pointing out that when they went up against the World Eaters Pre Heresy they wound up running away, and that Russ's Legion mysteriously delayed their arrival at Terra until the Fists, Scars, Ultramarines, Dark Angels and Blood Angels had dealt with the scary Legion of homicidal butchers, on the other hand...

[Scribe]

DarthMarko, the quote your looking for is in A Thousand Sons. It's with the Rune Priest calling out Ahriman and friends, while claiming his power comes from Fenris.

[DarthMarko]

@Wade So basically Russ's "demonstation" agains WE (which cost them blood btw) is running away ?

 

I will invoke Lorgar's words when I find "the Betrayer".....

 

There is much hate in you young one...

 

Edit :

 

Aaaah here they are : "His men, Angron. His legion could have killed you. Whether the Emperor ordered it or not, Russ spared your life. He didn't retreat in shame you arrogant...."

 

 

 

I have the paper version so I really don't wanna type the whole chapter...

[DarthMarko]

DarthMarko, the quote your looking for is in A Thousand Sons. It's with the Rune Priest calling out Ahriman and friends, while claiming his power comes from Fenris.

That was Russ verbaly attacking Magnus for comparing his warlocks with his sons of the storm and snow and butterflies (or some gak like that)....that doesn't mean he believes that (playing the dumb barbarian card perhaps ??? )

[Scribe]

No I dont think so, but its been awhile since I read it. I am thinking of a scene at Nikea, and perhaps even in the attack on Prospero.

[Wade Garrett]

@Wade So basically Russ's "demonstation" agains WE (which cost them blood btw) is running away

When all your troops skedaddle to their Thunderhawks while the other guys chase after them, that is indeed what is commonly known as "running away."

 

Russ's demonstration? Oh yes, let's talk about how Russ looked at the seething bundle of muscles and half suppressed violence depopulating entire planets with its axes and said to himself "I bet if I just sit down and talk with him he'll be swayed by my well reasoned debating skills. Or I could lose my temper, try to stab him , and get a whole bunch of my Astartes killed. Whatever."

 

The Night of the Wolf Resulted In:

 

One badly beaten Viking Primarch.

 

One gladiator Primarch saying "Whoo hoo! A winner is me! Lesson? What lesson?"

 

Some World Eaters dead. Given that they kill each other in the arena all the time and Angron has more concern for the teeth of his chainblades than his sons = meh.

 

Some dead Wolves for Russ and their living brothers to cry and get drunk over. Because they CARE.

 

Good job Leman! I can't imagine why Guilliman and Alpharius are considered the best planners of the Primarchs when the Wolf King is hatching brilliant schemes like this.

[GhostMalone]

Come in guys I don't want another thread closed.

 

ADB stated that the night of the wolf was to give perspective on the difference of the legions.

 

Angron would have died being surrounded just as the wolves would have been mauled by higher losses.

 

Lets drop this now.

 

 

It has nothing to do with the scars Novell and we know that the space wolves don't follow the edict but so many times we've had a thread closed or go around in circles so no more space wolf bashing and no more stubborn wolves are amazing comments

[grand_master85]

I am starting to despair of any book that contains Space Wolves, or World Eaters. The topic seems to have involved less about the Scars and more about the Wolves. Who have been discussed to death on a thousand other pages.

[DarthMarko]

 

@Wade So basically Russ's "demonstation" agains WE (which cost them blood btw) is running away

When all your troops skedaddle to their Thunderhawks while the other guys chase after them, that is indeed what is commonly known as "running away."

 

Russ's demonstration? Oh yes, let's talk about how Russ looked at the seething bundle of muscles and half suppressed violence depopulating entire planets with its axes and said to himself "I bet if I just sit down and talk with him he'll be swayed by my well reasoned debating skills. Or I could lose my temper, try to stab him , and get a whole bunch of my Astartes killed. Whatever."

 

The Night of the Wolf Resulted In:

 

One badly beaten Viking Primarch.

 

One gladiator Primarch saying "Whoo hoo! A winner is me! Lesson? What lesson?"

 

Some World Eaters dead. Given that they kill each other in the arena all the time and Angron has more concern for the teeth of his chainblades than his sons = meh.

 

Some dead Wolves for Russ and their living brothers to cry and get drunk over. Because they CARE.

 

Good job Leman! I can't imagine why Guilliman and Alpharius are considered the best planners of the Primarchs when the Wolf King is hatching brilliant schemes like this.

You need to read the book, again....dude...With the pink, star shaped, gloating glasess off...:-)

 

Come in guys I don't want another thread closed.

 

ADB stated that the night of the wolf was to give perspective on the difference of the legions.

 

Angron would have died being surrounded just as the wolves would have been mauled by higher losses.

 

Lets drop this now.

 

 

It has nothing to do with the scars Novell and we know that the space wolves don't follow the edict but so many times we've had a thread closed or go around in circles so no more space wolf bashing and no more stubborn wolves are amazing comments

Nah - it just Wade man...I know he has Russ's picture in his wallet.....

[SteelPaladin]

It is very entertaining how each side(WE fans and SW fans) cling to their biases for the Night of the Wolf. And both are entirely missing the point of the scene...

[Marshal Rohr]

The special snowflake defense coalition has arrived.

[GhostMalone]

Hey come on I accept the entire scene brothers I'm not that stubborn

[DuskRaider]

Both lost, the end.

[Wade Garrett]

All I'm saying is that many people (rightly) point out that Angron winning the duel was irrelevant once you pull back and look at the overall tactical picture, because beating Angron in a fist fight was immaterial to what Leman wanted to accomplish.

 

BUT if you pull back even farther, Russ outmanuvering the World Eaters is also irrelevant, because it failed to teach the Red Angel anything, and because his own death and that of his Astartes are immaterial to Angron.

 

So neither of them had anything to brag about.