depthcharge12 Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 The alphas could've destroyed the Ultras sent after them, then assimilated into the ultramarines And bobby sitting on his throne...its actually one of the twins waiting for the 'ultras' to free him to finish off the rest of the ultramarines... it would've been funny if the ultras that came back from that engagement when asked what happened replied "I cant say..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 The alphas could've destroyed the Ultras sent after them, then assimilated into the ultramarines No. One Deliverance Lost was enough thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I think someone mentioned that current 40K Alphas should all be untainted by Chaos. I completely disagree. After 10,000 years of pretending to turn traitor, hanging out around the eye, a sizeable fraction of AL should be corrupted. AL marines aren't Chaos-immune, even if it started out as an act.   With the right BL work they will be fine. As they are now, they are the sh1t.  Actually I think Dan Abnett's treatment of them in Legion is very good. I never felt that the AL would make other legions stupid. I simply got the sense that they have a very subtle, devious style. War is deception, and the AL take this principle to the extreme, I see no reason why other legions couldn't inteliigently counter them...well, maybe not the World Eaters. Take Bobby for exmaple. I think Alph/Omeg would definitely be able to frustrate him with misdirection and misinformation, but I don't think they'd be able to run circles around Bobby and make him look like a fool.  Anyway, I don't think they're overpowered in Legion. I think sh*t only got silly with stuff like The Long Games of Carcharias.and Deliverance Lost.  I'm describing the perfect strategist, but that's what the Alphas are (were) supposed to stand for.  They shouldn't be the "perfect" strategists. That would imply infallibility. They should just be excellent devious plotters.  They have a tendency to choose indirect over direct. They should be weaker in direct confrontations (if they're forced to engage in one). Sort of like how the TSons are weaker than the Space Wolves in non-psychic combat. The AL focus so much of their energy and training on the covert that they should be weaker at overt operations.  The AL would be OP if they choose indirect manipution over direct confrontation, but still excel at the latter when they engage in it...or if their style of manipulation always trumps the styles of other legions.  EDIT: The Serpent Beneath only has Alphas fu**ing up against other Alphas...I think what most people want to see if the Alphas having trouble with another legion, not with other Alphas. Otherwise, the conclusion is that only other Alphas can give the Alphas a challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 The alphas could've destroyed the Ultras sent after them, then assimilated into the ultramarines No. One Deliverance Lost was enough thank you very much. As a fan of the Raven Guard, I am sad that our first book was marred by such a stupid premise. as a fan of the Horus Heresy, I a sad that one of the novels were marred by such a stupid premise. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013   As a fan of the Raven Guard, I am sad that our first book was marred by such a stupid premise.  as a fan of the Horus Heresy, I a sad that one of the novels were marred by such a stupid premise.  I think the most stupid part was how the Raptors were actually viable and the Emperor never used them... I find the old fluff much more compelling: Corax ventures into forbidden territory attempting to speed up the SM creation process. He appears to find some success but then his new marines start to mutate into monsters. He puts them down himself and consumed with failure and guilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Yeah, one of the worst retcon's (or additions, maybe Corax tries again and the fluff is saved). Right up there with Sangy beating the Bloodthirster within the same novel. Â 2 very senseless 'additions'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I thought the Raptors were only put down after the Heresy in the original? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 One apocryphal tale is told by the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves, the so-called 'Saga of the Weregeld', which tells of ferocious monsters, drooling and almost insane with bloodlust, herded into combat by the battle brothers of the Raven Guard. Perhaps the Space Wolves' experiences with the curse of the Wulfen made them more sympathetic to the Raven Guard's plight as there is no record of them reporting the use of such forbidden technology. Barely one in ten of these abominations could even hold a bolt gun and yet amongst these there might be one in a hundred whose genetic structure was stable enough to develop into a fully-fledged Space Marine. Â ---- Â Obviously not the picture we got out of Deliverance Lost. Â ---- Â The Raven Guard simply hadn't the troops to operate in large-scale actions and it was nearly a century after the Heresy had ended before the Legion was able to deploy in meaningful numbers of full battle brothers. Corax had rebuilt his Legion, but at a cost. The dungeons below the Ravenspire echoed with the howls of the Apothecaries' creations, bestial monstrosities who hungered for battle, and Corax agonized as to what should be done with them. He decreed that none should discover the terrible price his Legion had paid in order to survive and his final solution was to personally administer the Emperor's Peace to each and every one, praying for their, and his own, souls as he did so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Well I mean we have a great knight shmoe writing his name in a primarchs heart, then Sanguinius should be able to spank bloodthirsters daily, even if said bloodthirster gave sangy a run for his money at terra and screws over his chapter any chance he gets. None of this over 9000 power level sillyness that we have in the old canon (wait did i just say that? i meant old disregarded fluff) 100 grey knights plus a bunch of space wolves (the executioners!!!! no less) to take down angron. But hey it might be retconned that some fat old ecclesiarchy priest with a shovel smacks angron upside the head like a crack hoe, then makes him wear t shirts that say I love the emperor. God I wish for ADB and Lord Abnett to go back and rewrite the other books for our sanity. And wait a second was that an AL dread that bjorn came across? interesting considering hiding and cloaking one of those in that legion must be a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Rob Sanders did a decent job with The Serpent Beneath. I'd feel comfortable letting him join in on that list. Although I'm basing my inference off just that one story. Â I hear good things about Chris Wraight, but I don't think I'm able to judge for myself. Â And I'd love to see Andy Chambers do some Heresy work too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I'd get behind Chambers on some HH stuff, I love his work with the Dark Eldar so far, the 2nd novel especially. Â Sanders, I enjoy greatly, and Wraight destroyed my soul with Wrath of Iron, I will read anything he puts out. Â Regardless, I agree with the sentiment. I would have a tough time seeing how either DL or Fear to Tread 'stuck to the canon' as ADB always fights to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Regardless, I agree with the sentiment. I would have a tough time seeing how either DL or Fear to Tread 'stuck to the canon' as ADB always fights to. Â There's nothing wrong with changing old fluff if you actually fu**ing improve it. However, some of new stuff we're getting is worse than the old stuff. That's what's bothering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 'Fear to Tread' is bad because Sanguinius kills a daemon...even though the whole sentiment from the previous fluff is kept - as in, the Angel is still deeply troubled by his Legion's display of bloodlust, which was the whole point of the Signus Prime arc. Add to that the vision of the 'Red Angel' and you have a twofold angst which was pretty well portrayed. Â Guys...all this rage against the fluff is turning silly. Not to say it's all dandelions and rainbows, but this is becoming an artillery barrage where no one chooses his targets - with the added benefit of turning up in every. Freaking. Thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I think someone mentioned that current 40K Alphas should all be untainted by Chaos. I completely disagree. After 10,000 years of pretending to turn traitor, hanging out around the eye, a sizeable fraction of AL should be corrupted. AL marines aren't Chaos-immune, even if it started out as an act.   With the right BL work they will be fine. As they are now, they are the sh1t.   Actually I think Dan Abnett's treatment of them in Legion is very good. I never felt that the AL would make other legions stupid. I simply got the sense that they have a very subtle, devious style. War is deception, and the AL take this principle to the extreme, I see no reason why other legions couldn't inteliigently counter them...well, maybe not the World Eaters. Take Bobby for exmaple. I think Alph/Omeg would definitely be able to frustrate him with misdirection and misinformation, but I don't think they'd be able to run circles around Bobby and make him look like a fool.  Anyway, I don't think they're overpowered in Legion. I think sh*t only got silly with stuff like The Long Games of Carcharias.and Deliverance Lost.  Ι do agree Alphas should be devious plotters myself. But for me, if you want to present balance in the fluff, devious plotters should be able to be defeated (and win, but in a balanced proportion) by the strong points and under the right conditions by other brilliant minds on warfare (Guilliman, Perturabo, Dorn, Lion, Russ, Karn just to name a few).  Alphas so far: "Alphas don't do what Alphas do for themselves. Alphas do what they do because they are Alphas"  Also, I think myself Alphas should be presented as corrupted to a point. 40K Chaos is presented as too awesome to avoid being corrupted even to a small extent. As long as you don't have anti-Chaos genes it is hard to say they will be 100% Loyal, even if a percentage of them is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddywarcrimes Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Â I like the idea of the Terran White Scar who wanted to be a Luna Wolf, since it reminds me of the traitor White Scars from the Garro audiobok"Sword of Truth". Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozeryk_Sleipnijr Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 As as the Alpha Legion goes I use the 40k depictions of what they look like today. They have gribblley bedmates in their ranks, their actions at Vrax show whats wrong with them. They are utterly corrupt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Lets please keep this thread on topic. Although the last couple are ok there has been an epidemic of off topic ones previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazleuk Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Sounds awesome. Really looking forward to getting this next year. Was it february or may it was released?  I have a question about the wolves in the book. Does Wraight take up where Abnett left them. I mean are they described/viewed in the same light as in Prospero Burns? Or does he start throwing around words like "grey hunters" and "blood claws" ?  in case this hasnt been mentioned he's the author of "battle of the fang". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Ι do agree Alphas should be devious plotters myself. But for me, if you want to present balance in the fluff, devious plotters should be able to be defeated (and win, but in a balanced proportion) by the strong points and under the right conditions by other brilliant minds on warfare (Guilliman, Perturabo, Dorn, Lion, Russ, Karn just to name a few).  Alphas so far: "Alphas don't do what Alphas do for themselves. Alphas do what they do because they are Alphas"  Also, I think myself Alphas should be presented as corrupted to a point. 40K Chaos is presented as too awesome to avoid being corrupted even to a small extent. As long as you don't have anti-Chaos genes it is hard to say they will be 100% Loyal, even if a percentage of them is.  Well, we pretty much agree on all points   'Fear to Tread' is bad because Sanguinius kills a daemon...   Actually no...Fear to Tread is bad because the writing is crap (IMO of course)    Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 It wasnt 'bad' or at least not the worst of the series. I didnt struggle with reading it, it didnt put me off, and actually a lot of it I enjoyed. The first Xeno's they encounter, the Chaos planet that tries to kill them, the description of Chaos and all that was all good. And hey, any book that has 'Executioners' die, gets at least a nod of approval. Â The thing is...its got an uplifting effect. Its got a 'yeah you beat me once, but I'll get you back' and he does. Sangy overcomes what was supposed to be a major hook in his character and a central facet of the Heresy fluff of old. We knew Sangy was supposed to lose, and we knew he was eventually to overcome, having it happen in the same novel detracts from things. Â The best thread of the book, perhaps the only redeeming part, is Amit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 It wasnt 'bad' or at least not the worst of the series. I didnt struggle with reading it, it didnt put me off, and actually a lot of it I enjoyed. The first Xeno's they encounter, the Chaos planet that tries to kill them, the description of Chaos and all that was all good. And hey, any book that has 'Executioners' die, gets at least a nod of approval. Â The thing is...its got an uplifting effect. Its got a 'yeah you beat me once, but I'll get you back' and he does. Sangy overcomes what was supposed to be a major hook in his character and a central facet of the Heresy fluff of old. We knew Sangy was supposed to lose, and we knew he was eventually to overcome, having it happen in the same novel detracts from things. Â The best thread of the book, perhaps the only redeeming part, is Amit. Â You know why I keep him around Raldoron...?:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Angel Scout Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Â I like the idea of the Terran White Scar who wanted to be a Luna Wolf, since it reminds me of the traitor White Scars from the Garro audiobok"Sword of Truth". Â They're mentioned in latest Scars chapter.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozeryk_Sleipnijr Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 What does the Kahn think of Russ and vice versa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grand_master85 Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Hmm, I think Jaghatai Khan thinks Russ is a bit savage, and quite happy to revel in that image, whilst the White Scars are not particualrly fond of being grouped into that category. Leman Russ, it seems, thinks that the Khan and his Scars are flighty and unreliable at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 I find it slightly ironic and immensely fun that Russ is the one in the right there. The Khan isn't totally wrong, but he doesn't seem to fully realize that he comes across as a bit selfish, close-minded and detached - to everyone but Horus, who always knew how to manipulate each of his brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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