amaze07 Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Can anyone give a synopsis as to what has gone on so far in Scars I-VI please if possible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 WoT has spoiled and reviewed each chapter every week, often in a single, very concise text, amaze. Look for his posts throughout the thread, it's an easy read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 On the idea that the Space Wolves are outshining the White Scars at the moment, I disagree. Space Wolves are a side show they are playing the necessary part in the story but nothing else, the White Scars however are being fully developed, their is an internal struggle about to break out. The character of the legion is being explained and explored, I wouldn't say the Space Wolves are eclipsing the White Scars. If I've been following the story well: The Terran-born White Scar (who wanted to be a Son of Horus) is about to have some deep second thoughts about his allegiance, right? Where is he now, by the way? Away from home? Well, not that I like the 'Alpha Legion did it' trope being abused, but it's entirely possible for a smart person or group (nevermind two Primarchs) to come up with a clever backup plan that allows for a great comeback just in case things go to hell. It's just that many of us regular folks don't usually have such a plan. Sometimes (if not many) the current conditions destroy those plans as far as mortals go at the least. The AL is presented as broken merely because reality (unreally, but it's a finctional world still) hasn't presented them, as far as I know of at the least, conditions under which the backup doesn't fanction, as it happened to many other Legions and real world armies. Once that is shown, that their plan can malfunction, I think we will stop thinking they are OP as a concept. What they do happens every day in many armies through the world. When it gets down to theoritically, you do have back up plans in many situations and execute the most difficult scenarios usually. But when theory becomes practise those plans go wrong sometimes, which hasn't happened for the AL as far as I'm aware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 They're just really good. And out-of-the-box strategists who manage to address several facets of a plan and prepare for a few mishaps do tend to win. I'm describing the perfect strategist, but that's what the Alphas are (were) supposed to stand for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 They're just really good. And out-of-the-box strategists who manage to address several facets of a plan and prepare for a few mishaps do tend to win. I'm describing the perfect strategist, but that's what the Alphas are (were) supposed to stand for. Something that would "level" them a bit in my opinion would be the scenario where when Roboute Guilliman attacked them in a manner they never saw coming from him thus were strategically behind due to underestimating him, to go on and simply lose. That would "even the scales" in my eyes at the very least. It would reveal them as winnable and give them the Primarch trait most have of some kind of defeat... They are really good, but not all of them should bhe presented as perfect, which is something many people see them now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaze07 Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Oh cool, thanks greyall was glancing through! cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 They're just really good. And out-of-the-box strategists who manage to address several facets of a plan and prepare for a few mishaps do tend to win. I'm describing the perfect strategist, but that's what the Alphas are (were) supposed to stand for.I rather dislike the new depiction of the Alpha Legion forth by the Heresy novels, and later 40k stories by Rob Sanders. They went from a bunch of unconventional overachievers to these unknowable CIA Astartes who can seemingly infiltrate anywhere while remaining unknowable themselves. It started to get rather ridiculous when the machinations of a single Alpha Marine took out an entire Chapter of Ultramarine Sucessors, but that's 40k not 30k. That, and less said about the whole Cabal thing, the better. I really dislike the Cabal fluff for Alpharius joining Horus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 The descriptions of the way the operated in Legion were spot on for a small elite force that uses insurgency and disruption to cover for precision attacks by heavily armored and highly trained super soldiers. But the minute they got away from Dan Abnett it all went down hill. Gav has a tendency to do that. He's just not creative enough to keep up the standard set by Abnett and A D-B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Can't speak for the Cabal thing, I haven't been following the Alpha Legion stories since the Legion isn't really my cup of tea - though it seems I'm losing some pretty cool novels, like 'Legion'. Yes, they do walk a fine line, some of the stuff they pull out, like impersonating other Legion's marines, is a bit radical. I guess the inner turmoil that's brewing inside the Legion will eventually undo them. Like Marshall GR said, so long as they don't remain all-knowing and invincible, it should remain acceptable. @Marshall GR: The scenario you're describing with Guilliman is exactly what happened when the Ultramarines fought the Alphas during the Scouring. The Alphas were ambushing the Ultras everywhere, so Guilliman went all Horus, teleported directly into the Alpha Legion's main base - strange that they knew the location of the main structure of a secretive organization, but Roboute's a clever guy - and unleashed havoc, culminating in Guilliman taking out Alpharius. Of course, no one really knows whether that was indeed Alpharius, even the Ultras are suspicious and don't claim to have killed a Primarch. Unfortunately, the Alphas didn't reel from the loss of the supposed Primarch and went back to delivering hot bolt rounds to the Ultramarine's doorstep mouths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 I wouldn't be surprise if Guilliman didn't just kill Ingo Pech, the first Captain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 I'd like for Guilliman to kill one of the twins. With both AL Primarchs fighting between them, the death of one of them would explain why the Alphas are still working in some harmony - or are they...? Also, it would be a testament to the Alphas if they made the death of a Primarch seem like an small achievement (and even then, doubtful) to the point that the Ultramarines don't count it as a victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 The original fluff of trying to overthrow the Imperium because they wanted a challenge (or to prove how good they were, whatever) was pretty bad too. You want a challenge? Climb a mountain. Upending civilization and causing trillions of deaths needs a better motive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelPaladin Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 On the idea that the Space Wolves are outshining the White Scars at the moment, I disagree. Space Wolves are a side show they are playing the necessary part in the story but nothing else, the White Scars however are being fully developed, their is an internal struggle about to break out. The character of the legion is being explained and explored, I wouldn't say the Space Wolves are eclipsing the White Scars. If I've been following the story well: The Terran-born White Scar (who wanted to be a Son of Horus) is about to have some deep second thoughts about his allegiance, right? Where is he now, by the way? Away from home? Well, not that I like the 'Alpha Legion did it' trope being abused, but it's entirely possible for a smart person or group (nevermind two Primarchs) to come up with a clever backup plan that allows for a great comeback just in case things go to hell. It's just that many of us regular folks don't usually have such a plan. Sometimes (if not many) the current conditions destroy those plans as far as mortals go at the least. The AL is presented as broken merely because reality (unreally, but it's a finctional world still) hasn't presented them, as far as I know of at the least, conditions under which the backup doesn't fanction, as it happened to many other Legions and real world armies. Once that is shown, that their plan can malfunction, I think we will stop thinking they are OP as a concept. What they do happens every day in many armies through the world. When it gets down to theoritically, you do have back up plans in many situations and execute the most difficult scenarios usually. But when theory becomes practise those plans go wrong sometimes, which hasn't happened for the AL as far as I'm aware. Read The Serpent Beneath. Things do not go exactly as planned... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 I'd like for Guilliman to kill one of the twins. With both AL Primarchs fighting between them, the death of one of them would explain why the Alphas are still working in some harmony - or are they...? Also, it would be a testament to the Alphas if they made the death of a Primarch seem like an small achievement (and even then, doubtful) to the point that the Ultramarines don't count it as a victory. I'm actually hoping that we, as readers, have been misinformed, and that battle takes place between the traitor and loyalist elements of the Alpha Legion. The Winner's mind cracks after his twins death, and thus begins 10,000 years of covert war with no focus or objective. Finger's crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 That's some gross disinformation, but hey, the Ultras don't seem to want to talk about that battle, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 It was "information" supplied by an Inquisitor who's loyalty is questionable (and who disappeared after delivering it), and is denied by the Ultramarines. Lies and misdirection. Of course the Alpha Legion would make it look like the Ultras did it; better than admitting that they suffered a loss of half their Legion TO half their Legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Guilliman recieved the information of the HQ of the Alpha Legion primarch by the Alpha Legion primarch nº 2, Guilliman takes advantage and kills one of the twins. That's my theory. And the possibilites are: -Omegon as suppodsely loyal to the Emperor, gave the information to RG to decapitate the Alpha Legion (more or less), and stop their influence in the Imperium in favor of chaos, scattering them across the galaxy. Or -Alpharius as suppodsely traitor/lsearching for the destruction of mankind to save the galaxy, gave the information to RG to kill his loyalist twin because he discovered Omegon's game, and ironically felt betrayed by his brother. Those are my thoughts about Eskrador for now, until a novel reveals the true loyalty of both primarchs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Although since the Ultramarines are kind of "Yeah, we do not recollect the events of which you speak", it is entirely possible the Ultramarines have no involvement and someone just recorded the green-blue Alpha Legion fighting straight-blue Marines, so they assumed they were Ultramarines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Although since the Ultramarines are kind of "Yeah, we do not recollect the events of which you speak", it is entirely possible the Ultramarines have no involvement and someone just recorded the green-blue Alpha Legion fighting straight-blue Marines, so they assumed they were Ultramarines. But if the Ultras weren't involved, wouldn't they deny that fact? Edit: I meant deny all possible participation in that, not just the "we do not recollect the events..." that sounds more like an excuse, or hiding something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 Could be they messed up majorly someway and instead of acknowledging the success of the event, they decided to deny it entirely so what ever failure that occurred didn't come out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Although since the Ultramarines are kind of "Yeah, we do not recollect the events of which you speak", it is entirely possible the Ultramarines have no involvement and someone just recorded the green-blue Alpha Legion fighting straight-blue Marines, so they assumed they were Ultramarines. But if the Ultras weren't involved, wouldn't they deny that fact? Edit: I meant deny all possible participation in that, not just the "we do not recollect the events..." that sounds more like an excuse, or hiding something. Not necessarily. It could be there's a blank in their history, so they just don't know if they participated or not. So the "We don't recall" isn't necessarily a "We weren't there" just a "We have no record of being there". They can't prove they were there, but at the same time they can't prove they weren't there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Well, they did mess up, Guilliman seems to have made a hotheaded decision to decapitate the hydra (eh) after they consistently beat the Blues. The Alphas have apparently made the cool-headed Guilliman lose his temper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Wouldn't be the first time he lost his cool :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 The death of a 'traitor' primarch, forgotten? Even if the Ultramarines did get their butts handed to them afterwards, the death of Alpharius or Omegon would be inscribed all over macragge. I find it more likely that it's a lie, within a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 The death of a 'traitor' primarch, forgotten? Even if the Ultramarines did get their butts handed to them afterwards, the death of Alpharius or Omegon would be inscribed all over macragge. I find it more likely that it's a lie, within a lie. Not necessarily forgotten, just never written down. EDIT: That's why even if it is a lie, the Ultramarines can't say "We weren't there because they don't even know if they participated or not. Its like the perfect crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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