If wishes were fishes... Night Lords Codex Supplement

[Kol Saresk]

 

Couple of questions. Why the Raptors as Troops? As far as we know, only Zso Sahaal's command company had a majority of Raptor units. And the IA article and 3.5 says that it will be common to find Raptors and Night Lords near each other, but not that most of the warband will be made of Raptors. That's why they were only a FA unit, not a Troop replacement. If this was a Raptor Cult supplement, I wouldn't have a problem with that bit.

I have 2 points to counter it:

 

1. Why not? If any of the Chaos Legions deserves to have Raptors as troops - it will be Night Lords.

 

2. Forge World Horus Heresy has assault squads as Troops, so any company could have as many Raptors as they wanted.

No offense, but I can run circles with this.

 

Three Reasons why the Black Legion should have Raptors as Troops.

 

1.) The Black Legion has everything in abundance, even Raptors. Everything. In abundance.

 

2.) Back in the Heresy era, Forgeworld allowed all eighteen Legions to have Assault Marines as Troops. That means you can put together a Catulan Reaver Assault Company! Just like the one mentioned in the rulebook Betrayal!

 

3.) The Catulan Reavers Assault Marines even have their own Captain, just like Zso Sahaal's Company!

 

See what I mean?

[AekoldHelbrass]

No offense, but I can run circles with this.

 

Three Reasons why the Black Legion should have Raptors as Troops.

 

1.) The Black Legion has everything in abundance, even Raptors. Everything. In abundance.

 

2.) Back in the Heresy era, Forgeworld allowed all eighteen Legions to have Assault Marines as Troops. That means you can put together a Catulan Reaver Assault Company! Just like the one mentioned in the rulebook Betrayal!

 

3.) The Catulan Reavers Assault Marines even have their own Captain, just like Zso Sahaal's Company!

 

See what I mean?

You'll be surprised - I'm agree with every word you wrote! I do agree that assault CSM should have been troops since forever, and any CSM player should have been able to make full assault-oriented army. The only thing Night Lords would be different in this case - having Raptors cult, similar to assault CSM + VotLW + WS5 + pairs of LC similarly to Warp Talons.

 

But since Raptors were downgraded from cult to jumpy CSM in Fast Attack - Night Lords should at least get them as troops (opened by jumpy lord)

[plasmaspam]

 

 

Couple of questions. Why the Raptors as Troops? As far as we know, only Zso Sahaal's command company had a majority of Raptor units. And the IA article and 3.5 says that it will be common to find Raptors and Night Lords near each other, but not that most of the warband will be made of Raptors. That's why they were only a FA unit, not a Troop replacement. If this was a Raptor Cult supplement, I wouldn't have a problem with that bit.

I have 2 points to counter it:

 

1. Why not? If any of the Chaos Legions deserves to have Raptors as troops - it will be Night Lords.

 

2. Forge World Horus Heresy has assault squads as Troops, so any company could have as many Raptors as they wanted.

No offense, but I can run circles with this.

 

Three Reasons why the Black Legion should have Raptors as Troops.

 

1.) The Black Legion has everything in abundance, even Raptors. Everything. In abundance.

 

2.) Back in the Heresy era, Forgeworld allowed all eighteen Legions to have Assault Marines as Troops. That means you can put together a Catulan Reaver Assault Company! Just like the one mentioned in the rulebook Betrayal!

 

3.) The Catulan Reavers Assault Marines even have their own Captain, just like Zso Sahaal's Company!

 

See what I mean?

 

@Kol_Saresk - allow me to be devils advocate.  What do you believe Night Lords are then, as opposed to what they aren't?  

 

Not trying to be funny, it's clear you're a big NL fan.  I'm not clear though on what you think should be in.

[Kol Saresk]

Like I said earlier, I'm not against the Night Lords giving the Raptors bonuses, I just don't feel that bonus should be to make them Troops. And saying that they can have access to an abundance of Raptors as justification for that is....... Well it can be hijacked or more than a few Legions when put into the proper light.

 

I actually agree with most of the things said here. I just don't see the reasoning behind Night Lords having to make Raptors Troops and to be honest, I don't I've ever really seen good justification for it. However, I do see plenty of reason for the Night Lords to give bonuses to Raptor Cults, such as aiding in deep strike. That's pretty much it. I'm not that good at thinking of rules though, that's why I haven't contributed much.

 

EDIT: If you're asking for my view of the Night Lords, they are Hunter-Murderers who specialize in hitting fast and hard. Depending on the mood, they can do it quietly(like in Vulkan Lives) or they can do it with more than enough noise(like in Void Stalker). However, fast and hard doesn't just mean jump pack. It can mean bike or rhino as well. Basically anything that helps the Night Lords get in close real fast, even Infiltrate.

[Balthamal]

Like I said earlier, I'm not against the Night Lords giving the Raptors bonuses, I just don't feel that bonus should be to make them Troops. And saying that they can have access to an abundance of Raptors as justification for that is....... Well it can be hijacked or more than a few Legions when put into the proper light.

 

I actually agree with most of the things said here. I just don't see the reasoning behind Night Lords having to make Raptors Troops and to be honest, I don't I've ever really seen good justification for it. However, I do see plenty of reason for the Night Lords to give bonuses to Raptor Cults, such as aiding in deep strike. That's pretty much it. I'm not that good at thinking of rules though, that's why I haven't contributed much.

 

EDIT: If you're asking for my view of the Night Lords, they are Hunter-Murderers who specialize in hitting fast and hard. Depending on the mood, they can do it quietly(like in Vulkan Lives) or they can do it with more than enough noise(like in Void Stalker). However, fast and hard doesn't just mean jump pack. It can mean bike or rhino as well. Basically anything that helps the Night Lords get in close real fast, even Infiltrate.

 

Couldn't put it better myself. Bonuses are fine with me, I just can't hack being lumped in to the bracket of "Assault squads came from there and that's what they specialise in and thats how it should be etc etc etc....". I hardly think of a demi company within an overall first company classes as unique specilisation, see Catalun Reaver Squad. At least the Blood Angels have unbreakable fluff as to their mastery of the air.

 

Personally I'd say infiltrate is perfectly in line with the whole inspire fear etc but with it's current rules it's so awesome that it's tantamount to game breaking, not to mention the fact the Alpha Legion also have a legitimate claim to that particular USR.

 

Failing that I'd stick with my previous comments about debuffing leadership etc or I can see myself playing my mates using the Legion rules from Massacre since the only alternative is to make them bland csm

[RolandTHTG]

Hmm...

Army Special Rules:
Sons of the Night Haunter: All units with VotLW gain Night Vision and Stealth

(let's face it, we aren't going to get something for nothing, but it isn't mandatory, and is actually worth the cost)

Origin of the Cult: A lord w/ Jump pack unlocks one unit of Raptors as a troops choice

(Similar to how the new SM bike unlock is rumored to be, shows increased ties, without making them THE raptor legion)

Warlord Traits:
I'm actually going to take a cop-out on this, as I haven't been able to get a good idea of how GW plans their things. Stuff like the Lord as Dirge Caster and auto-night fight make sense, but I can't think of 6 for that, plus I wanted to Use one for a Relic (see Below)

Relics: apologies for misspellings in the next section
Curze's Eye: The model gains +1 Mastery level and the Precognition Psychic power
(I kept going back and forth on what power the relic should get. Something on Talos's level could be something like Scryer's gaze to Forwarning or Forbiding. But Decimus's power seems stronger, so I decided to represent him. the other option would be to give 1 roll on the divination table, no taking the Primaris (a twist on huron's rule, but no rerolling every turn)

The Coronus Nox: The model gains Shrouded and can chose at the beginning of the enemy turn to invoke the Nightfighting rules for that turn
(aka, Solar Pulse for CSM)

Diary of the War Sage: D3 Units may infiltrate, and you may add or subtract 1 from you reserve rolls while the model is still alive.

Lost Blade of the Champion: This is a Powersword that Grants +1 WS and Preferred Enemy(opponents main detachment) but also grants Hatred(this character) to that detachment
(basically a weaker version of the rules associated with the Talon of Horus, but able to taunt any enemy)

Jumppack of the Raptor Lord: This is a jumppack that causes the Character and any joined Raptors to only scatter 1d6 when they deepstrike.
(ok, so I wanted to give another boost to Raptor players, plus why should only Blood Angels get Descent of Angels )

The Talons of Curze: The Character replaces all weapons with a pair of Lightning Claws that strike at AP2
(Bad Touch, Bad Touch!)

SO there is my little wishlist for you NightLords Players

[Balthamal]

 

Hmm...

 

Diary of the War Sage: D3 Units may infiltrate, and you may add or subtract 1 from you reserve rolls while the model is still alive.

 

Call it The Tenebrous Path and you sir have a deal

[Sanctimonius]

Raptors really should be available as troops. I mean, the Angels get their scoring assault units, why can't we? But I agree, I don't want the Night Lords to be the Raptor legion. Perhaps something that buffs warp talons, representing the real cult of raptors taken further along the logical path, but making only our legion have them as troops? Gad, we'd never rid ourselves of the moniker...

 

I agree with Kol in that the Night Lords are the legion of the sneak attack. We are the pragmatic, the hidden blade, the strike that kills even before it is seen. I want rules that represent that, and night fighting, messing with reserves, maybe even assaulting after deep strike is the way to represent that on the board. 

And I second (third?) the Champions of Chaos being dropped to the wayside. It's meant to represent the marine in question seeking the favour of the gods and doing so by answering challenges. The Night Lords I know and love with my bitter heart seek no favour from capricious, uncaring gods. They turned from the Imperium because it was a hollow thing, not to slavishly ally themselves to another master. Even though the gods notice and favour their actions, they don't all seek the dark gods.

[Scribe]

Thing is, I see 'sneak attack' and think Alpha Legion.

 

Night Lords to me, are psychological more so then anything else. They are far more interested in :cussing with you before they kill you, then applying any kind of military process.

 

YMMV

[Brother Aiwass]

Agreed. Instead of being the 'hidden blade', imho they just show you the blade, imapled in your parents flayed corpse, showing you what's next.

[Kol Saresk]

However, depending on their mood, or as the situation requires it, they will sneak into your house, kill your parents and then leave you to wake up to their flayed corpses hanging in the doorway to your bedroom. A hidden knife can be just as psychological as the roaring chainblade. It all matters on how you use it. So, while sneaky may not necessarily be the main feature, it is a feature nonetheless.

[Scribe]

Yeah, but that is the difficulty in representing them.

 

Psychological horror doesnt translate well on the table top if played out over days, unless you want that dud of a USR, Fear. :D

 

I like the idea of disruption, but localized, or negative reserve mods, the Dirge Caster Warlord Trait is brilliant as an example.

[plasmaspam]

Thing is, I see 'sneak attack' and think Alpha Legion.

 

Night Lords to me, are psychological more so then anything else. They are far more interested in :cussing with you before they kill you, then applying any kind of military process.

 

YMMV

 

I'd disagree here - Alpha Legion are to my mind the CIA/MI6/KGB circa late 1960's (for the good of the country, even if the government disagree).  They're not sneak attack per se; they're espionage, sleeper cells, and sabotage.  They convince the enemy's enemy to all the heavy lifting for them.

 

Whilst AL would have "Infiltrators" - e.g. specific Effrit Stealth Squads, I've always thought their traits/rules would revolve around extensive use of "allies", e.g. cultists, duped IG squads and the like.  There was a short story recently (can't remember which anthology book it was) which involved the AL activating sleeper agents within the facility they were invading.

 

Now I know the question is "how do you translate this to the table-top"?  Well for talkings' sake:

• Espionage - rules to interfere with comms relays and astropaths.  Or perhaps getting to redeploy "x" units after set-up having seen the enemy's plans
• Sleeper cells - take control of D3 individuals in your opponents (non-HQ or Elite) squads at a pre-selected turn (like in Deathwing Assault)
• Sabotage - D3 melta bomb attacks on enemy fortifications or installations
• Finally, AL can have an allies from any imperial faction - "We had no idea they weren't loyal to the Throne!"

 

BACK ON TOPIC!

 

I'll hold my hands up an admit I really like "Infiltrators" (who wouldn't) and think that it is a Night Lord trait above anyone else.  Infiltrating, causing Fear, and being experts at Night Fighting (with associated drawbacks in daylight) I'd argue are well established as the flavours of a Night Lords force.

 

and relax...

[daveNYC]

Back off topic!  AL forces rolling of extra dice (or regular dice, but they pick the direction) for scatter distance on DS.  No mishaps or off table though.

 

Back on topic!  Something or other whereby if the NL break a unit, that unit runs screaming and doesn't stop.  So say, a modifier on leadership for break tests, roll extra dice for fallback, has to fall back for one turn before regrouping.

 

Stupidly overpowered, but it does somewhat reflect how I think the NL would play out in an actual battle.  They don't care about killing the enemy (relative to other legions/chapters), they want to break the enemy, because if you break the enemy they're never going to stand up to you again.

 

The problem is, about half the armies out there are Space Marine, and having Space Marines (or CSM, Tyranids, or Necrons) run screaming in terror off the tabletop doesn't work too well with the nature of the armies.

[Sanctimonius]

So could that be the difference between AL and NL on the tabletop? AL force effects on the enemy - forced re-rolls, affect the reserves, moving units before the first turn etc, while NL get the infiltration, the night fighting, moving their own troops before the game starts. Al change your game plan, NL change their own?

[e1kabong]

I would be satisfied with the following rules for a Night Lords supplement:

 

Night Lords warlord is always treated as having rolled "Master of Deception" warlord trait (D3 infiltrators)

 

Gift of mutation is removed as an upgrade option for Sergeants.

 

A vox caster upgrade is added for sergeants that targets a unit within 12" and forces a pinning check (as they cower).

 

The champion of chaos rule modified. Challenges still must be made and accepted, but the chaos boon table is removed. Instead, unsaved wounds over the defeated models wound profile are counted towards the final tally. Example - if I have a sergeant that deals 3 unsaved wounds to a 1 wound model and the rest of the squad deals 2 wounds while suffering 1, the Night Lords would win combat by a tally of 5 to 1. This would represent the terror of the squad seeing their duelist massacred. The bigger the slaughter, the greater chance that they'll break.

 

I dig much of the other stuff mentioned, particularly in the artifacts and VotLW swapping.

[Ahrimanjjb]

My 2p on the matter:

 

Special Rules (given to units with VotLW like TJWyrm suggests because I think that's the way it should go)

 

Night Vision

Fear

Night Fight rules in all missions played

In Midnight Clad: Units gain stealth while Night Fight rules are in effect

 

This allows the Night Lords to be played showing their preference to terror tactics as well as the fact they can sneak around in the night. Stealth shouldn't be a big part of their rules IMHO, because thats much more the Raven Guard's MO.

 

As for Warlord traits and Artifacts I like a lot of the ones mentioned here. I think there should be a focus on synergy with the Fear special rules, with a couple of items or traits reducing the leadership of enemy units and really demonstrating that they use fear as a weapon. Love the idea of Sevatar's chain-glaive being an artifact, shows many sought to take his place after his death and provides a great table-top ability in the form of the teleport homer.

 

I've never understood the wish for them to be associated heavily with raptors. You say that blood angels have assault marines as troops why can't we? Well why would you want to be anything like the night lords? The night lords utilised the raptors because they put space marines in your face, which is scary, and buffing raptors like Kol_Saresk says is the way to go I think.

[lokkorex]

Night lords SHOULD have:

 

Night Vision

 

access to Hit & Run, since they are described as good raiders.

 

something that messes with enemy reserves to show their messing with morale and "death from a thousand cuts" strategy.

 

access to stealth, sneaky-sneaky.

 

give your lord a jump pack or a bike and a raptor/chaos assault marine squad or a bike squad becomes troops. this should imho be available to ALL chaos factions.

 

Night Lords propably won't get anything near this amount stuff, thank you very f*****g much GW...

[plasmaspam]

Well, I just hope someone from GW central command is reading this thread - lots of ideas for them to quickly translate into a "labour of love" and get some proper Nostraman shenanigans on the go.

[Kol Saresk]

Nah. Maybe one or two "minor" employees, but unless the author of the material or whoever it isthat gives them the material to write presents it to them reads this, it'll probably just go unnoticed.

 

Although, on the other hand maybe we can coerce those employees who have no problem breaking signed non-disclosure agreements to do something.

[plasmaspam]

Nah. Maybe one or two "minor" employees, but unless the author of the material or whoever it isthat gives them the material to write presents it to them reads this, it'll probably just go unnoticed.

 

Although, on the other hand maybe we can coerce those employees who have no problem breaking signed non-disclosure agreements to do something.

 

I'd write it for them and sign away any and all author rights if they'd just release something useful to us!

[Kol Saresk]

lol

[Sanctimonius]

:) the reason I was wanting some raptor rules like the Blood Angels is because if we're being labelled as the Chaos Blood Angels then why can't we have anything near their rules? If we're the raptor legion then give us some damn buffs for them.

 

Personally I'd prefer not to be that legion. Give us rules that represent the Night Lords more accurately, and having things that affect fear and leadership seems closer.

[Sception]

While 'wishes are fishes', in my half-started, "I could do it better" home brew CSM codex, the vet upgrade for Night Lords is 'enhanced senses and hit and run' (as opposed to 'crusader and preferred enemy: space marines' for Black Legion, or 'infiltrate' for night lords, or 'may re-roll morale tests, pass or fail' for non-legion warbands, etc).  No troop jump unit (though I am considering it, whether as upgrades to chosen & some cult units, which can already be troops based on warlord's mark, or as an alternative choice for undivided warlords), but I did add drop pods, and access to a cheaper assault transport than a rhino (currently pegged at around 120 points, and eats a slot, so it's not so spammable).  Nothing else for night lords specifically, maybe a character at some point, but I figured night vision, hit and run chaos marines popping out of drop pods was sufficiently Night Lordy for my tastes.

 

As for what I think a supplement could do, well, Based on existing supplements, I don't expect much.  The Black Legion supplement was a bit underwhelming, at least in terms of the rules, but if you look at the other two supplement books, ignoring the parent codeces, it seems to fit right in line.  Not as extensive as the tau rules, but certainly more so than Iyanden.  The difference in people's reactions to them come from the parent book, not the supplements, so it seems that, at least at this point, supplement books are not meant to address perceived flaws in the parent books themselves.

 

So, yeah, not expecting much.  Maybe they'll get the vets tax like black legion.  Maybe something for enhanced senses.  new warlord traits and items, certailny, but the latter will likely be more themed towards specific items in the lore, rather than intended to make the army feel more 'night lordy' in the way it plays on the table top.  Troop raptors wouldn't shock me, if only because it would be easy and minimalist to, and that's what these supplements are when it comes to rules, at least so far.

 

That's not what I'd wish to see, though, what I'd wish to see is chaos drop pods, introduced in the Night Lords supplement, but added to the main book as well.  Maybe night lords could have wider access to them, or a first turn drop pod assault type rule, while regular CSM drop pods would be restricted to the elite units - cults, chosen, possessed, dreadnoughts - and would have to wait around for normal reserves rolls.  But regardless, drop pods.  Yeah, that's my fishy wish.  Not gonna happen, but still.

[derpasaurus]

I'd like something like this

Army Rules

• Night Vision (duurr)
• Maybe D3 units have stealth/infiltrate. Or have an option to pay for it as an addition, like VotLW or something.

Some sick wargear.

• Corona Nox should be a Stubborn bubble, say 12" around the warlord. After all, you're carrying a piece of your blowed up home planet on your head. (Fearless + NL = eehhh.. They know when to leave, they won't stick around a losing fight. Maybe more akin to ATSKNF, where if you're in the bubble you can't be swept if you fall back.)
• Maybe some nice buffed up Claws like I've seen mentioned before. Some relic from Sahaal's earlier days. Something shiny and fluffy.​
• Some sort of teleport homer to relegate deepstrike. Because golly gee, for real.
• Love the vox scream idea to deny overwatch. Let's make it happen.

​

Warlord Traits:

• Something to negate ATSKNF (but not fearless, don't wanna be too stupid.) in a bubble.
• Modification of some type to Night fighting. An extention if it happens on turn one, bring it on a turn earlier if it happens late.
• Mods to enemy reserve rolls are a cool idea
• Chance to sabotage an objective/equipment. Something like the first time a chosen unit fires it's weapons might Get Hot! Tanks could potentially get a jammed gun or thrown track. Maybe a guaranteed 1 on mysterious objective roll for an objective on the board. 
• Chance to pin a unit without ATSKNF/fearless once per game because you're so bloody terrifying.
• Hatred/preferred enemy (imperium) anything loyalist. Sisters, guard, SM, because some men just want to watch the world burn.