Defending the Title - SA Nationals 2013

[Morticon]

Ahoy!!! 

 

So....another year has gone by, and the number 1 spot in the country that I hold is on the line.

For those of you that remember or have followed previous years, I have managed to claw myself up to the #1 seed in the country, and managed to take last year's National tournament - no thanks to the daemonic incursion trying to stop me!!

 

This year is shaping up to be the toughest nationals i've ever played in.  The gamer quality is very high, and almost as important, the lists are MAD, MAD scary.

 

I'm looking to come up against my old orky opponent (who faced me in the finals last year). His list is much better now than it was then - so he's ready to take me on.

 

In addition to that I have to contend with a really, really strong Tau/Eldar player. 

 

Other threats are:  

 

A triple Drake list, a DA biker list (one of the scariest lists), a triple WraithKnight, triple Hunter list, a very scary IG/Daemon list, crazy cron list and a killer Nid list to name but a few.  

 

 

Because the gaming network in SA is quite small, we know each other's lists/armies generally speaking. This is a great thing, but also a bad thing.  It means that I know what to build to beat, but in order to build to beat one, you take away from another.  It means that my annual list fret spawns 100 different variants before the day of gaming.  

 

Special thanks to all those that have been helping out in the list forum.  For those of you that are interested in seeing the feedback and development of the list - check here:

 

Nationals List Thread

 

For those of you wanting to skip to what i'm taking....I'm still deciding between two lists.  

Here's what i've finally settled on:

 

Meph

Libby- Lvl2, bike, auspx, axe.

4x Black Knights- Apoth, Champ.   (or 5bikers straight - your thoughts?)

 

2x 5man BA ASM (1 flmr) - Razors  - 2x Las/Plas

1x 5man DA TAC - Razor- TLAC

1x 5man DA SCT - Rifles

 

3x Attk Bk - 2MM, 1HB

3x Attk Bk - 3HB

 

2x Ravens- TLAC/TLMM

 

 

OR

 

Meph

Libby- Lvl2, bike, auspx, axe.

 

2x 5man BA ASM (2 flmrs) - Razors - 1x TLAC, 1xTLPG/LC

1x 5man DA TAC - Razor - 1xTLAC

1x 5man DA SCT - Rifles

 

3x Attk Bk - 2MM, 1HB

3x Attk Bk - 3MM

 

2x Vengeance Turrets (1 punisher, 1 cannon)

 

2x Ravens



Feel free to vote for which list you want!  I'll also use this thread for the batreps, and the pics on the day! 

BA once again into the fray!!!

 

"Half a league, half a league,

  Half a league onward,

All in the valley of Death,

  Rode the six hundred." - A.T.

[Captain Idaho]

Would you not prefer a pair of battle cannons? I think you'd do better with a pair of them over a rubbish BS S5 cannon.

 

I'm not sure exactly what will happen with the meta and when the Codex drops but Stalkers could cause you seriously problems for token points (75pts each apparently). Same as 2 units of Lootas too I guess. Tau Broadsides with their million missiles per turn too.

 

What are your thoughts on this situation?

[Morticon]

Nationals in 2 days! So, not concerned about new dex stuff. 

 

The Tau are a serious threat  - he's got interceptor and skyfire on his riptides, and intercept on his Broadsides.

Lootas not so much concern to be honest.

 

I could get two battle cannons, i was just thinking about FMCs, and light fliers and general other stuff.  Could lose my flamers for them.

[Captain Idaho]

Well you'll get an alpha strike on them with your own fliers at least. I only ask because I'm concerned with beating them myself!

[Ushtarador]

Still prefer the first list, and I like them as a command squad for 2 reasons:

 

1. FnP on T5 is awesome

2. If they get charged by someone nasty, the champ can sacrifice himself in a challenge, and afterwards the unit can use hit&run to get out of cc

 

I'm really looking forward to these battle reps, go Angels! :)

[Captain Idaho]

Just a quick one, but is there a small error on list one - 4 Black Knights? Should it be 5 for a Command squad?

[Khorneeq]

I can see a lot of flyers in the opponents lists, so I vote for vengance batteries.

I think they can (just can) help with all this flying stuff better than bikers. Rubbish BS doesn't matter much when making snap shots :)

[Morticon]

Just a quick one, but is there a small error on list one - 4 Black Knights? Should it be 5 for a Command squad?

 

Command BKs can be between 3 and 5.  Its 4 (including the apoth) - that runs at a pricey 195 ><; 

[Captain Idaho]

My bad. Didn't see the DA or BA reference!

 

How embarrassing.

[Memento Of Prospero]

I dont see the utility of taking DA for a libby and slightly cheap Tacs and scouts. The list doesnt need a libby I feel, and divination is wasted as DA knights are twin linked. If you want to deal with MCs, sternguard in a pod just blow them up nicely have more wounds, and can trade the libby for corbulo and he can tank helldrake flamer wounds for 1 turn usually.

 

Sternguard+corbulo have more utility on the long run. Combi meltas to fry broadsides. Flamers to deal with hordes, ignore cover rounds for those back field units that rely on cover to survive and score, and 2+ poison for MCs. You will laugh at iron armed tyranids or daemon princes.

[Morticon]

Wolf Pack -

 

Remember, the DA Libby can cast Prescience on any unit- not just the knights (whose 4 attacks each on the charge is also awesome rerolling, though!) -  Twin linked MMs or HBs will be damaging. Also, I may not even take Prescience depending on what other powers I roll in the divination set.  Against orks for example, i'm more likely to take at least one Telepathy power, maybe two. 

The added benefit of another Lvl2 hood on the board is also great, not to mention the fact that its another Force Weapon for WraithKnights, Riptides and other MCs.

 

Im a HUGE fan of Corbs, but there are two considerations.  If youre paying 105 for him, you really need to make sure he's influencing more than just one squad.  He requires a build around him- so thats a big build re-design. I also tried using him vs. the Drakes, and found that irrespective of my placing, the drakes had the mobility to position from a side where corbs is not, and take out the squads anyway :/

Here's the other big consideration:

 

DA Libby + 2x Scoring DA Units + Knights =  525

 

Corbs + 5man Stern w/ 5 cmbis in pod  + 2 Scoring units of same type =  525

 

Im not convinced that 5 guys + Corbs in a pod is going to offer more utility than the knights + the libby.  

I understand that they can kill stuff hard on the drop, but then theyre sitting entirely unsupported and are more like a throwaway unit.  Not to mention, that the Tau player has 2x Intercepting riptides with Ion Cannons, and a squad of intercepting Broadsides - against strong intercepting lists, it sadly wouldnt even last :( 

 

 

If I had to lose the knights only, it would afford me 6 Stern a pod and 2 combis - again- not convinced 6 stern in a pod is better than 4 knights with apoth, champ and grenade.

[Chaplain Admetus]

You seem to be coming down on the side of the black knights yourself, Mort, so I'd say that they're your best option.

[Leonaides]

I wont vote as I've not had time to think it through properly regarding your likely opposing lists but good luck and give em all a smack in the dice bag for the Blood Angels!

[Captain Idaho]

The Blackknights will be another threat like Mephiston on the table, which is crucial!

[Jolemai]

Do you need anymore anti-air with the vengeance turrets? Also, are you able to use the rad and stasis grenades on the Black Knights to your advantage? Only to me they would make an excellent combo with some Death Company...

 

Without Corbulo, are you going to play this as offensively as normal? (I realise that's a generalisation as one's plan alters depending on the opposition, but I hope you know what I mean.)

[Memento Of Prospero]

It's the very reason why Corbulo just trumps interceptor. He can soak Missile pods all day with 3+/2+. Deploying your pod near a corner prevents drakes from coming in at an angle that will make him bypass corbulo, they must move 18 when coming on. It also allows you to manipulate it's direction. The rest of your army is incredibly fast and can support them. You can also have the pod arrive alone, and send them in the storm raven with corbulo and mephiston, making it a deadly trinity.

 

Sternguard with furious charge hit just as hard as knights, have more wounds and 3 attacks a pop on the charge.

 

I see your point about points cost. The only way to fit them in would be to drop some Heavy bolter attack bikes. It's a tough call.

 

That librarian's power axe will never get to kill anything MCs. Any monstrous creature using smash will cause him instant death on Ap 2 at initiative. before he gets to do anything.

 

It's probably too late to include them, but do give them a try in the future. they really crush the meta with 3 combi meltas 3 flamers and 4 bolters or a heavy flamer.

[Morticon]

 

That librarian's power axe will never get to kill anything MCs. Any monstrous creature using smash will cause him instant death on Ap 2 at initiative. before he gets to do anything.

 

 

 

 

 

Riptides + WraithKnights are not Characters.  Charging in with Attack bike support guarantees he gets his attacks! :D 

 

With other MCs though, i'm in for a much tougher time, but probs wouldnt be charging character MCs with him. 

 

Do you need anymore anti-air with the vengeance turrets? Also, are you able to use the rad and stasis grenades on the Black Knights to your advantage? Only to me they would make an excellent combo with some Death Company...

 

Without Corbulo, are you going to play this as offensively as normal? (I realise that's a generalisation as one's plan alters depending on the opposition, but I hope you know what I mean.)

 

Its a bit of a shoot n scoot list with both of them. I hope to avoid combat where possible and clean up with the shooting.  

 

 

[Morticon]

You seem to be coming down on the side of the black knights yourself, Mort, so I'd say that they're your best option.

 

 

A very high seed player from the States and buddy of mine suggested the turrets- which is what is adding to my uncertainty.  I really do see the value of the turrets, just unsure if its the best option against everyone! Seems most people here are feeling the knights too! So, lookin most likely to go that way! 

[Ushtarador]

I think it's mainly the feeling that the turrets don't fit in with the highly mobile theme of the army :) Also, the turrets are nice in some situations, but especially against MCs they are a lot less effective than black knights I feel.

[Elrahir]

I am not a veteran player but i like the 1st list more, maybe because i love bikes. I miss your lists with the fragiosos though (pricey, but they are mobile enough if podded, BA unique and they get things done) . Good luck champ.

[Morticon]

I am not a veteran player but i like the 1st list more, maybe because i love bikes. I miss your lists with the fragiosos though (pricey, but they are mobile enough if podded, BA unique and they get things done) . Good luck champ.

 

Cheers dude!  I had to lose the fraggies sadly on account of the top Tau player :( The amount of intercept makes it a poorer choice :(

[Ushtarador]

yeah, well-spaced riptides really ruin your day. If he only runs 1 rippie they are still perfectly fine because he can't cover anything. As long as you can drop out of melta range they are awesome, but within 9'' the risk is just too great.

[Midnightmare]

Good Luck Mort!!

(I went for list one )

[Morticon]

Heya guys!

 

Day 1 was a blast....well for the most part. 

 

Thanks to all that voted, I went with the Knights.  So far, seems like the better choice. 

 

I pulled an orky player (not strong one) game one - and did very well against him. 

I then pulled one of my nemesis lists that I was worried about - the DA biker list O_o was scary as hell.  Will be a great batrep.  

Third game saw me come up against that blasted Tau/Eldar list I was worrying about. 

I've never had such a lop-sided game in my life.  By bottom of turn 5 (when it ended) I had 4 scouts left. 

Him?

 

I had done 2 Hull Points worth of damage. One on 1 serpent, 1 on another.  

Thats it.  

His Riptides had 2 wounds taken , and 1 wound taken -none of which were from me. 

 

It was such a crazy whitewash.  Y'oh.  I said this to buddies on another forum, but I actually cannot believe how incredible the new Tau are - paired with the equally insane Eldar.....y'oh!!  

Anyway.....

Batreps after things tomorrow!!

Will hope to submarine.  I think the biker list has a chance to beat the tau list, so i gotta hope that happens, but I doubt it will, because in a big tourney, i think there can be enough games played that only winners lplay winners.  My money is defs on the Tau/Dar.

[Chaplain Admetus]

New Tau are stupid good. I have a Tau army which is languishing in a box, and I've not got the codex because I refuse to play what is essentially 40k 'easy mode'. Last game I played against them was using my DE and I've never had a less fun game (when your opponent's army has stuff that doesn't need LoS, frequently hits you on 3s and 2s and kills you on 2s, and its laughably easy for them to ignore cover, there comes a point where you just don't want to waste any more of your life playing the 'game'.)

 

Looking forward to the reports, and you're still in with a shout with the right results! (Maybe if Taudar are held to a draw a few times? *shrug*) - good luck with day 2; smash face!