Defending the Title - SA Nationals 2013

[Morticon]

Auspex is great - that 125 point Auspexing, Axing, Biking, lvl2 libby was amazing. Next to Meph I think was the best and most consistent unit in the army. 

[Captain Idaho]

And since my Chapter Master has a Relic Blade/Storm Shield he won't be shooting just before a charge very often eh!

 

Consider your selections stolen!

[Morticon]

idaho- is that for the new dex?

[Captain Idaho]

Yep. I'm making big changes to how I make my lists for tournaments and synchronisation will be more finely tuned.

[Chaplain Admetus]

That's what I -don't- like about Tau/Eldar. They're reasonable codices, with a lot of variable and interesting options; but suffer from 5th edition Daemonitis - some units/unit combos are really, REALLY good (like; disgustingly good) and people just gravitate towards those. The netlist riptides, broadside missile-spam, commander with batman belt, autarch of killyness/2+ re-rollable cover save idiocy.

 

But look at it this way - you only lost 2-1, so by the very narrowest of margins ;) (I'm assuming his filthy xenos posterior was nowhere near the relic). First Blood and Slay The Warlord vs Linebreaker.

 

I might have been tempted to play this differently. Set almost everything up on table(!) and out of LoS/in cover where possible, but outside of transports. Just peg it forwards using razors/wrecked razors for cover. Maybe leave a couple of razors back to turbo-boost them forwards later on to provide mobile shields - bring your own cover with you. The blessing of the mission is that you only needed to tag a foot to the relic on the last turn to take the game. Could that have been a viable possibility?

[Morticon]

That's what I -don't- like about Tau/Eldar. They're reasonable codices, with a lot of variable and interesting options; but suffer from 5th edition Daemonitis - some units/unit combos are really, REALLY good (like; disgustingly good) and people just gravitate towards those. The netlist riptides, broadside missile-spam, commander with batman belt, autarch of killyness/2+ re-rollable cover save idiocy.

But look at it this way - you only lost 2-1, so by the very narrowest of margins (I'm assuming his filthy xenos posterior was nowhere near the relic). First Blood and Slay The Warlord vs Linebreaker.

I might have been tempted to play this differently. Set almost everything up on table(!) and out of LoS/in cover where possible, but outside of transports. Just peg it forwards using razors/wrecked razors for cover. Maybe leave a couple of razors back to turbo-boost them forwards later on to provide mobile shields - bring your own cover with you. The blessing of the mission is that you only needed to tag a foot to the relic on the last turn to take the game. Could that have been a viable possibility?

Sadly he had grabbed the relic too :( So, it was his 5-1 i think.

Also I think that could have been a viable tactic too, Chap. My concern was the lack of cover or los blocking terrain- there was precious little- and the cover ignoring stuff. Remember each serpent shoots out d6+1 S7 ignore cover shots, that are rerolled + 4x S6 shots - one serp is usually enough to take out one razor. The skyrays have the marker lights too, which means they can take away cover as well. :(

Then you have the SMSes on the broadsides and skyrays which also dont need LOS or require cover. Thats why I thought out of all the options available to me, it was maybe best

[Captain Idaho]

We need to hammer out some theory on beating such lists.

[Jolemai]

Wasn't the list I was expecting to be honest.

That stupid puretide chip, giving everything rerolls is nuts. Also, tank hunter on all those rerolling intercepting missiles O_o. Its a joke.

Skyrays got additional skyfire if needed, but the marker lights make sure the riptide AP2 gets through where needed.

And if you charge, all the riptides get to attack you- even if they intercepted that turn so lame.

I was expecting a Farsight Bomb with the Eldar allies being a Farseer jetbike squadron and maybe a Wraithknight. I'm not really sure how he would use the ubertrach other than as a threat/tank in the same manner we use Mephiston?

[Ushtarador]

I think a big problem with current Tau is that unless there is LoS-blocking terrain, you will be shot and you will have NO cover as long as he has markerlights. You can't jump Mephy forwards into that ruin to weather a turn of shooting because the riptide will just ignore his cover and strip 3 wounds with the big guns..

[Captain Idaho]

Mort; how close exactly did his Wave Serpents get on average? I'm thinking our best chance against such Xenos filth could be concentrating fire on what we can to bring them down and hopefully force them to commit because we out shoot them, then counter attack after weathering their attack.

 

Not sure it's possible with the sheer power they have up close though and even if we out shoot them at range those Eldar play dirty and bring Tau to offset ranged deficiencies.

 

Actually re looking into that army of his, it seems Land Raiders might have trumped him. He had limited models that could hurt it, all with close ranged weapons and Riptides rather shoot their big guns at other things.

[Morticon]

Serps never got closer than 36", matey. 

[Chaplain Admetus]

Yeah, the not needing LoS for the missiles is scary, but at least it wasn't full on missile spam. BoLS put up an article that I've just read about the need for LoS blocking terrain these days as you really need it now; some armies have it trivially easy to ignore cover (Tau, Eldar, Chaos, anything with decent access to divination) so just 'terrain' won't cut it, you need things that break line of sight. They're the reason I've stopped playing my Dark Eldar - it's no fun to just line up and watch as everything my opponent has kills my guys on 2s and there's nothing I can do about it. It's also the reason I've stopped using my Tau as its an army that requires absolutely no tactical thought or nous - just point and shoot.

[Memento Of Prospero]

I am currently dealing with wave serpents/ razorback spam with a unit of 10 sternguard combat squadded in the same pod with 2-3 combi meltas in each combat squad.

 

This usually comes with another pod with corbulo and either more sternguard or an assault squads with 2 meltas and a gunslinger sergeant.

 

That means I have a cover save from the pod and FnP to soak intercept.

 

 

If your oponnent doesn't castle up, i use my pods to isolate the broadsides and wipe them out with the combi weapons and asm meltas

[Memento Of Prospero]

After that, it's party time for the storm raven and my fragioso coming in as second wave.

[prof818]

Hey Mort, just thought I would stop lurking on bolter and chainsword and actually give you my correct list. And yes, i did lose focus and get too excited, as I could see victory in my grasp.

 

Sammael

Libby - Bike, PS, Auspex, PFG, Lvl2

5x Knights - grenade, banner of dev, apoth

4x Knights - grenade, ravenwing banner , champ

6x Bikers

6x Bikers

6x Bikers

1x Atk Bk - MM

1x Atk Bk - MM

1x Atk Bk - MM

Whirlwind

5x Devs - 3x Plasmacannons

 

Must say your advice on the whirlwind really paid off for me in, wrt to sniping other models and such.

[Jolemai]

Oh?

[Ushtarador]

Seeing those tau lists, breaking out some land raider spam with choppy units inside might definitely be an interesting option. The main problem there is that the riptides usually sport synced meltas that obviously ignore cover :/

[Morticon]

arrrrgghh- just wrote up last batrep and it got lost in the warp ><;

 

 

blaaaarghh

[Jolemai]

We understand, it's been one of those tournaments

[Captain Idaho]

Seeing those tau lists, breaking out some land raider spam with choppy units inside might definitely be an interesting option. The main problem there is that the riptides usually sport synced meltas that obviously ignore cover :/

 

Ah but if they're within melta range you should be able to charge them. Well not quite I guess because they do have that silly Jetpack.

 

Dang, I hate Tau and Eldar!

[Ushtarador]

Yep, that's exactly the problem :/ You will most likely be sitting in a crater (i.e. dangerous terrain) and he'll chicken out 2d6 at the end of his turn. Also, if he blows up the raider you have to weather the fire of the rest of the army, which is almost impossible.

[Captain Idaho]

Just out of interest Mort, did the Eldar Wave Serpents fire that S7 attack much? If they did, that means they can't negate penetrates to a glance on a 2+. Perhaps a barrage of ranged power could cause problems? Perhaps Typhoons or Drop pod squads with meltas etc, plus a few lascannons could force the opponent to choose not to shoot the extra power to survive?

 

I've done it to Eldar before; forced them to rush into positions they wanted later on because I hit them with multiple lascannons, missiles and an Orbital Bombardment ( ;) ) on turn one onwards.

 

Of course this was some time ago and things have changed.

[Morticon]

Idaho - yeah, almost always, there was not much coming in that wasnt getting destroyed by intercept.  

Unless you're playing a full Drop Pod list, you gotta remember that 3 units are being shot up on arrival  - with a combination of weapons - the riptides for example can drop a s8, ap2 large blast, or all those sms/high yield missiles (that reroll to hit). 

 

This particular list has 7 units that put out a substantial amount of dakka, so it really depends on who goes first.  Thats the prob with tau for me, is that their intercept is so strong it makes the usual plan of getting up in their grill much more difficult.  You get shot up moving up, and you get shot up landing.  Also, what annoys me is how you get shot up landing, then if you charge them same turn, they still get overwatch from everything in 6" (even the stuff that intercepted).  Really makes it tough for us.  

[Captain Idaho]

It is absurd. GW created a couple monsters in these Codex books.

 

Let's try and be positive. Maybe a Land Raider would be appropriate? It doesn't seem like they have anything that can penetrate it until you get close. Turn 1 you'll be too far away for Fusion blasters yet turn 2 you should get a charge.

 

18" 1st turn move, 2nd turn 6" move, 6" disembark, 2D6" charge should cover between 32" and 42", with an average of 37".

 

Biggest problem is the awful overwatch. I suppose a Storm Shield tank might be needed.

 

Any ideas?

[knife&fork]

Land raiders (multiple)

Drop pods (in numbers, disembark close enough so that he can't place a big blast)

Barrage and cover ignoring weapons

Runepriest(s) to shut down Eldar psychic buffs

 

Just a few ideas