Nature vs. Nurture, the What If? edition

[BlueRingedCephalopodofKaos]

Magnus on Baal is problematic.  You've got a dude with one eye landing on a planet that's divided between evil mutants and people who kill mutants.  Only reason that Sanguinius wasn't killed immediately is because he's a good looking mutant.

Assuming that Magnus isn't killed right off the bat, there's two possible outcomes.  Either he joins the mutants, because screw those guys who wanted to kill me, or he ends up like Vulkan, as an outcast who is eventually accepted by the humans after he defends against a mutant raid.  That's also assuming he uses his mad psyker powers to read minds and figures out that the mutants on Baal are not nice people.

 

The main thing with some of these is the circumstances of their landing, not just the planet where they landed.  Angron being captured and having the nails installed is the most obvious, as I don't think any primarch would turn out well with those things in their head.

Didn't Magnus lost the eye (anecdotally) in some kind of nefarious warp-bid to save his sons, i.e. later on in the timeline?

[Chronotonic]

 

Magnus on Baal is problematic.  You've got a dude with one eye landing on a planet that's divided between evil mutants and people who kill mutants.  Only reason that Sanguinius wasn't killed immediately is because he's a good looking mutant.

Assuming that Magnus isn't killed right off the bat, there's two possible outcomes.  Either he joins the mutants, because screw those guys who wanted to kill me, or he ends up like Vulkan, as an outcast who is eventually accepted by the humans after he defends against a mutant raid.  That's also assuming he uses his mad psyker powers to read minds and figures out that the mutants on Baal are not nice people.

 

The main thing with some of these is the circumstances of their landing, not just the planet where they landed.  Angron being captured and having the nails installed is the most obvious, as I don't think any primarch would turn out well with those things in their head.

Didn't Magnus lost the eye (anecdotally) in some kind of nefarious warp-bid to save his sons, i.e. later on in the timeline?

that is how I took it thus he never lost his eye and never became the cyclops...

 

as for his mental abilities I doubt many mutants had them so he sided in my version with the unmutated humans and created a future with them always trying to stop the mutants non-violently but we all know that would have never happened...

 

and when he found the STC medical device he jumped at the chance to save his own sons instead of the warp gods and the lose of his eye....I mean more would have been wrote but this was just a basic origins story...

[BlueRingedCephalopodofKaos]

Sejanus cast his gaze westward "Please, my lord. We must hurry. Dusk is almost upon us, and with it, the one that hunts us."
As if to support the truth of these words uttered by his lost son - if such a word as "truth" could be applied to this oneiric place -
Horus felt the impossible ache of weakness grow in his bones, a malaise spreading from the anathame wound.
The light departed, and the grass shriveled. The floral scent of the west wind gave way to the chemical reek of the industrial hellscape his guide had revealed to him earlier. 
"No, Sejanus. I will remember who I am. I refuse to run any further," The Warmaster growled, impatient in his frailty. "I will not be cowed by visions or seduced by riddles. I will know the truth of this . . . world." 
"And yet you remain blind, brother." An oddly familiar voice snarled in his skull.
"My lord . . . " Sejanus begged, grasping Horus' forearm,. But it was too late.
Patiently, the one-eyed wolf emerged from the toxic fog. 
"Blinded by the masks of deceivers. Tell me, Horus. Would Sejanus display such cowardice? No backward step, isn't that right?" A bark of cynical laughter, despite the beast's frozen countenance.  "Would the real Hastur have displayed such discourtesy to a guest . . . even an uninvited one? This charade has reached its end."
"Do not listen to him! Father . . !" A fourth voice? Also familiar . . . and yet . . .
Horus glanced back down at the the tattooed figure attempting to lead him away in desperation.
"Erebus?"
The unbidden name had scarcely escaped his lips when the wolf closed its maw around Colchisian runes. Throatless and sputtering blood, Erebus looked up helplessly. But the attention of Horus was elsewhere. Cradling his freed arm, he regarded the lupine horror as it completed its work on the astartes jerking and writhing hideously on the toxic ground. "I know you . . ." he murmured.
Finished, the beast turned up to regard him. It was wolf no longer - part of the surrounding mist, its form was dark and protean - shifting lazily through the nightmare iterations of a thousand civilizations. Only one point of visual consistency remained, and that was all Horus needed in order to determine the identity of the interloper. The blood which had marked the wolf's jaws contracted a baleful lambency, an upward drifting hue which enveloped his eldritch brother: the most potent of the Emperor's living weapons, watchdog of the warp, the red-maned Lord of Barbarus.

 

[lokkorex]

BlueRingedCephalopodofKaos: ok, that's a five star post just for killing Erebus, but the rest of it makes it all the better!

 

Barbarus-Leman Russ? incredible idea!

[Kol Saresk]

BlueRingedCephalopodofKaos: ok, that's a five star post just for killing Erebus, but the rest of it makes it all the better!

 

Barbarus-Leman Russ? incredible idea!

I got a Barbarus-Magnus. Red mane and that it was basically the scene from False Gods to a t, except for the very obvious differences. Still, well done.

[Conn Eremon]

Ditto. I think it was Barbaran Magnus as well.

[jeremy1391]

 

 

 

Wade you just won the Internet! (I take it Kurze is Sammy and Dorn is Dean, and Leman "bobby" Russ is brilliant!) damn now I need to find season 8 and watch it lol.

Kurze has long dark hair, gets visions of bad stuff happening, and has issues with his dad. Rogal Dorn has short spikey hair and is almost psychotically loyal to his dad. It's a pretty good fit I think. (Dean drowns his sorrows in alcohol and loose women, Rogal does the same by torturing himself. Dean has the Impala, Dorn has Phalanx...) and of course Russ is leathery, bearded, drinks a lot, and often takes it upon himself to dispense down home folksy wisdom to those he considers his kin. I think it all fits pretty well.

 

Now, the real question is, would Vulkan or Roboute be a better fit for Rufus?

Personality wise for Rufus I'd say that Roboutte is a better fit personality wise than Vulkan.

[jeremy1391]

Barbarus Magnus would be one scary individual! Cold and ruthless as cannon Mortarion with the most powerful psychic mind of the primarchs.... Terrifying!

[BlueRingedCephalopodofKaos]

 

BlueRingedCephalopodofKaos: ok, that's a five star post just for killing Erebus, but the rest of it makes it all the better!

 

Barbarus-Leman Russ? incredible idea!

I got a Barbarus-Magnus. Red mane and that it was basically the scene from False Gods to a t, except for the very obvious differences. Still, well done.

Thanks so much! Yes, that was intended as a Barbaran Magnus - the wolf was intended as both a bit of a red herring and as reference to the original sequence in 'False Gods.' There's no telling what could have happened had Magnus been raised by the necromantic overlords of Barbarus, and I settled on a relatively . . . optimistic outcome. 

 

 

[BlueRingedCephalopodofKaos]

Barbarus Magnus would be one scary individual! Cold and ruthless as cannon Mortarion with the most powerful psychic mind of the primarchs.... Terrifying!

Agreed!

[Conn Eremon]

It was the constant drip of liquid upon his face that finally woke Freyr. Immediately his muscles spasmed, reactions to his last memories of the void. However, they were confined, pressed tightly to the cool metal. His armor was off and he was placed on some flat metal surface raised to an incline. Before him was a portal that showed the empty expanse of space, quiet and desolate but for small, indescernible shapes. Something about it was wrong, but his mind wouldn't clear enough for him to determine what.

 

The whisper of movement in the dark above caught his attention. The darkness was so complete it took a few seconds for even his enhanced eyes to penetrate. A disturbing sight awaited him. Crawling over the rafters were faces, all staring at him. Many sneered, a few licked their lips, but most maintained a deadpan stare. The bodies attached to the faces were bulky, genetically enhanced like his own. They wore only the tight jumpsuit commonly worn by the Astartes when out of armor, but tattered and torn.

 

Slow, heavy footsteps sounded behind him. Freyr craned his neck but could not the metal slab blocked his vision. Accentuating each deep thump was a higher pitched sound, like a cascade of jewelry swaying in the wind. When the figure stepped into view, it was large, larger than Freyr. The heavily bearded face was oriented on him as the figure walked past him to stand at the portal. There was a moment of silence, broken only by the whispered sounds of above, before Leman Goldenbeard, Primarch of the Red Corsairs, turned to face Freyr once more.

 

"You are on my ship now, dog." Leman said, moving to stand before Freyr.

 

"But you are a poor prize. Inconsequential, really. There is only one thing that I want from you," Leman's face loomed over him, enveloping his vision so that there was nothing else to see. Quiet, hard laughter from above echoed Leman's words, and Freyr could hear the creak and groan of metal that signified Leman's crew edging closer.

 

Leman's arm shot forward, his powerful hand gripping Freyr by the throat, cutting off air. Suddenly, he realized what was so wrong with what he could see outside of the portal. The ship was quiet, but for the hum of the distant engines and the sinister laughter from above. The pounding of guns and the screeching of powerful lasers was gone. The shapes outside the portal had been distant wreckages. The battle was over. And Freyr feared they had lost.

 

"Just one small, tiny thing, little, faithful dog. WHERE IS MY BROTHER?"

Y'know, I kind of imagine Leman sounding like a mixture of Hugo Weaving and Geoffrey Rush.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

And I was hoping a pirate leman and fenris Logar would become like cannon Leman/Lion.

[Conn Eremon]

I'm thinking more of a canon Calth incident, combined with Isstvan V. Lorgar the old sea dog meets up with Pirate King Russ to tag team a major foe, their brothers. Only, once Lorgar gets close, Russ fires first and deadly.

 

However, I deliberately kept Lorgar from this piece, and from Freyr's perspective, so that it would leave us room to expand on it and leave the battle's conclusion undecided. Do the Imperial Hounds become a canon Massacred Legion? Which one? Or do they end up escaping after taking a beating, like the Fists at Phall? Did Freyr pass out and let go of Lorgar? Did Lorgar's sons find him? Or did Lorgar wake up and, like Curze on the Lion's ship, is somewhere onboard?

 

However, the loyalties are still undecided, so it may be rewritten.

[Marshal Rohr]

I was thinking about this thread today while I read Prince of Crows. 

 

Did anyone really think about how ridiculous it seems that all 9 traitor Primarchs grew up on worlds that were so obviously tied to Chaos? When Mortarion grew up on a world covered in disease ridden swamps and poison smog and fell to Nurgle, was anyone surprised? When Angron was found with an engine in his head that makes him kill recklessly, no one thought that was odd he fell to Khorne? Lorgar grew up on a Chaos worshipping planet and Magnus was raised by sorcerers. Every single traitor Primarch was obviously bad news from day one.

 

 

Thats poor writing, plain and simple. The loyalist Primarchs grew up on decent worlds with honor and ended up being honorable. Poor writing. 

 

It would be far more believable if Barbarus had been a world without the Nurgle overtones and Mortarion had been a powerful leader. It would've been much better if Perturabo had ruled Olympia as a philosopher king. 

 

Everything BL does now just smooths over the initial poorly conceived writing. 

[Conn Eremon]

That isn't wrong, but what can you do when such facts were set down back when the details weren't all that important and lack of subtlety was flaunted everywhere else as well?

 

But that is something this project could try to improve on.

[Ace Debonair]

Every single traitor Primarch was obviously bad news from day one.

Down to their names, too. Who the is gonna trust a guy called Fulgrim or Mortarion?

[Conn Eremon]

"My Legion will be called the Alpha Legion and everyone in it will have my name and everyone else will think I am everywhere."

 

"Well, that just sounds like you're trying to be the best at everything."

 

"WHO'S TRYING. *DISAPPEAR*"

 

"How did he disappear in all caps?"

 

And people think the Ultramarines are bad.

[Ace Debonair]

"My Legion will be called the Alpha Legion and everyone in it will have my name and everyone else will think I am everywhere."

 

"Well, that just sounds like you're trying to be the best at everything."

 

"WHO'S TRYING. *DISAPPEAR*"

 

"How did he disappear in all caps?"

 

"Let's ask Angron, he's always talking in allcaps. Or that guy called Horus who I utterly trust to not betray us."

 

"Good idea, but first I'm going to talk to a psychopath whose last name sounds like 'Curse' who I also believe I can implicitly trust."

 

 

Suddenly I begin to understand what happened to the missing Primarchs.

[Wade Garrett]

 

Every single traitor Primarch was obviously bad news from day one.

 

 

Thats poor writing, plain and simple. The loyalist Primarchs grew up on decent worlds with honor and ended up being honorable. Poor writing. 

 

 

How was Fulgrim "obviously bad news" from day one? Or Perturabo?

 

As for the loyalists...Ferrous Manus grew up among warring barbarian tribes in a volcanic wasteland with weird xenos metal stuck to his arm and doing who knows what to his mind. Leman Russ was raised by WOLVES and then adopted by Balon Greyjoy. Corax was trained from birth by vengeful prisoners to murder the gaolers of their dystopian prison moon.

 

You don't see any of THOSE upbringings raising the faint possibility that these particular Primarchs will be problematic down the road?

[Marshal Rohr]

Because of the way they were written. Fulgrim grows up as some kind of weird water Jesus. Perturabo gets pissy because no one likes his architecture. Graham McNeill took the evil physics Primarch and made him a whiny Aristotle. He made Fulgrim into a shallow, vacuous teenage girl who wants everyone to think hes the prettiest Primarch at the Ball. 

 

[Adra'Melek]

Ok. I've got one a little bit different.

 

Emperor of Mankind

 

The Emperor watched as the meteorite flashed across the sky. As it crashed to earth he turned and said "Bring him to me". The various satellites in orbit about Terra had picked up the object appearing, detecting a life form inside. Where it had come was unknown as it had bypassed the out system detectors. When the Emperors men return they carried an infant child. He stared long and hard at the child before announcing he was to live. The child was named Horus after the ancient Sky God.

 

And so Horus grew. He was tutored and trained as the heir of the Emperor. His sharp mind quickly adapting and developing, becoming masterful at all aspects of leadership, both diplomatic and military. He mastered the force lance and by his tenth birthday had bested the Emperor's Master of Guard, Dort Tarik.

 

Eventually the Emperor succumbed to his great age and Horus was named Lord of Terra, Emperor of Mankind. Under his leadership Terra and the Sol System prospered as never before. Driving Horus was the story he was told of the great Empire humanity once ruled over from the Terran throne room . He dreamed of leading his people in a great crusade to reclaim there birthright. Although the technology existed to travel to the outer planets it was limited and other systems lay out of reach. But Horus prepared his armies. Power armoured troops were trained and disciplined to a fine fighting force. They were used to put down rebellions, including a cult on the Whisperheads. Blooding themselves against savages.

 

Then one day warning came of an approaching fleet. The ancient stories talked of xenos invaders and raiders. All the planets were raised to alert status and they mobilised for war. A message was sent asking for a meeting, the strangers were human. Horus met the delegates flanked by two of his men in their silvered power armour and force lances. The delegates were made up of 5 giants. Each over 7 foot tall, wearing powered armour similar to his own men. As their leader spoke, Horus' face darkened. He was told to bow down to the Emperor of Mankind and turn his rule of to this impostor. Final Horus raised an arm and the air shimmered as the 10 Invisibles cut down the 4 guards of the delegates. Horus stalked up to he leader, towering over him as he did over a normal human. This warrior shouted "For the Emperor" and charged at Horus. With inhuman speed Horus was behind the warrior, and his reach round and tore the helmet from shoulders. Horus passed it to one of his men and told him to give his response to the fleet.

 

That was the beginning of the Great War. The enemy attacked directly at the Imperial Palace at Terra.

 

 

 

Er...not sure where to go now. Basically that was Horus landing on the Terra in Horus Rising (I was there when Horus killed the Emperor).

[Conn Eremon]

Wade's right, the only thing worse than how obviously traitorous origins the Traitor Primarchs were written with is the achingly loyal origins of of the Loyalist Legions.

 

Like he said, you don't see any of those upbringings raising the faint possibility that these particular Primarchs will be problematic down the road.

[Marshal Rohr]

Exactly. You know who was going to be loyal and who was going to be evil from the get go. Instead of approaching it like that in the beginning of the series, they just wrote it like we already knew (because we did), but it messes up the suspense for people who only begin 40K with the HH series. 

[Ubermensch Commander]

@cormac

Have their been any more voting oppurtunities?

@Marshal2 Crusaders

I think there are enough contrary examples to question that blanket assessment. Even in a few of the more obvious cases of "bad upbrining" or "Chaos worlds" it does not always pan out to turning against the Imperium.
 Even some of the more off the wall Primarchs such as Angron or Curze did serve loyally for centuries.  Others had fairly decent upbringings but went renegade anyway.
Lorgar, for example, did not grow up in anightmare world but then proceeded to turn traitor despite his proclamation of absolute faith.  The Colchisian Primarch wasnt even intially indocrinated into Chaos or any such. I seem to recall him stamping it out.
 Fulgrim's world was unpleasant but nowhere as bad as other loyalists.
Sanguinius was obviously a mutant and ran around in an irradiated wasteland.  Stayed Loyal to the point of matyrdom.
The Lion was raised on a strongly Chaos touched planet and yet remained loyal.
Medusa and Fenris hardly classify as paradises but their Primarchs managed to largely refrain from getting 8 star tattoos and crashing dad's battleship.
Now, their naming conventions are another matter. Looking at YOU, Iron Hand McHanderson of X street.

[Conn Eremon]

Yes, same thread. Updated every two days. You will need to follow it at its thread, not here.

 

You have one hour or so before current one closes and new one opens.