The Finer Points of Heresy Fluff

[Flint13]

Evening All! I'm well underway getting the fluff for my legion worked out in earnest, but I had a few questions about general organization, of both the legions and my chosen one, the Nightlords. Following are a few different bits I wanted a little more info on before I pencil in anything silly.

 

1.) The exchange of marines between legions - I remember this coming up primarily in the HH novel, Thousand Sons. Several of the characters had spent time training with other legions, notably the space wolves (who didn't get along so hot with the sons) and the Iron warriors.

Is this a common practice among legions at the time? Or just the thousand sons in particular? I assumed some legions would be more predisposed to accepting "exchange legionnaires" just like some are for rememberancers. Any info here would be helpful.

 

2.) In the Nightlords' background, the Atrementar are the Terminator elite of the legion. Are they only terminators? I have heard several answers ranging from "They are all terminators, but all terminators (ie first company) aren't Atrementar," to the complete opposite of "the Atrementar are the first company, some of them are terminators, some are just power-armored veterans, similar to the Ultramarines first company."

 

3.) Do the Atrementar have any special markings to distinguish them from other elites? I remember the Nostraman lion of A D-B's novels, but I wasn't sure if those were just for a specific squad.

 

4.) Lastly, do the Nightlords as a legion have Chaplains? I'm sure they had an active librarius before and during the heresy, as they are mentioned in several HH novels. Can't recall Chaplains though. I don't see them as instating chaplains to cull the use of psychic powers anymore than obeying imperial edicts in the first place. 

 

Any help you folks of B&C can provide would be much appreciated towards crafting a better backstory for my own little slice of the legion!

[Kol Saresk]

1.) We don't really know how common the exchange program was. The only examples we have(IIRC) are the Thousand Sons being spread out to help institute the Librarius program and when the Word Bearers sent out their Chaplains to lay down the structure of the Edict of Nikea as a cover to try and institute the various lodges, of which we only have records of four flourishing.

 

Doesn't mean that there weren't more, just that they weren't recorded, at least as far as I recall.

 

2.) Well, we don't really know. The Atrementar are described as the Terminator elite. But the only time we have ever seen any other Terminators in the Night Lords was in Void Stalker when Talos and First Claw strapped on some stolen Terminator armor. So going by the terminology, the Atramentar are the Terminator elite. If there are no other Terminators, then they will also be all Terminators. If there are more Terminators, then they are all Terminators, but they are not all of the Terminators.

 

However, according to the snippet from the Forgeworld video in how it refers to "Night Lords Terminators" as "Night Lords Terminators", it would suggest that the Atramentar are the Terminator Elite, not the entirety of the Terminators.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc69/bleachit54/nl5_zps258cceca.png?t=1379081936

 

3.) IIRC, the Nostraman Lion was described as being the "Mark of the Atramentar" so it would be safe to assume that they all have it.

 

4.) Yes, in The Dark King by Graham McNeill there are Night Lords Chaplains shown executing prisoners of war.

[Scribe]

Re: Atramentar, they could be like the Phoenix Terminators we see, or the Deathshroud. A special breed of Terminator.

[Kol Saresk]

Re: Atramentar, they could be like the Phoenix Terminators we see, or the Deathshroud. A special breed of Terminator.

Possibly. Although what we know about them suggests a position similar to the Justaerin and the Grave Wardens rather than the Primarch's Bodyguard retinue, such as the Phoenix Guard, the Devourers and the Death Shroud. Not saying you're wrong, just that what relatively little have points in a different, but similar direction.

[Kastor Krieg]

@"Space Marine exchange program"

I believe there were more such cases. For example, Imperial Fists - Sigismund with the World Eaters. I think I recall some Ultramarines doing that, too.

[Kol Saresk]

Was that part of some exchange program? I thought when Sigismund and Amit went into the World Eaters' arena-pits, it was no different than when Loken sparred with Lucius or when Sevatar dueled Sigismund. IIRC.

[depthcharge12]

Was that part of some exchange program? I thought when Sigismund and Amit went into the World Eaters' arena-pits, it was no different than when Loken sparred with Lucius or when Sevatar dueled Sigismund. IIRC.

 

Idk, I would think so at first, but:

 

 

Didn't Sigismund and his 1st company learn the tradition to chain ones weapons to themselves from the WEs?

 

Which lead to the black templars doing the same thing?

[Kol Saresk]

I don't recall. I didn't even know Black Templars chained their weapons until I saw a post about it so... Yeah, as far as I know, I know enough to say that I don't know.

[depthcharge12]

I don't recall. I didn't even know Black Templars chained their weapons until I saw a post about it so... Yeah, as far as I know, I know enough to say that I don't know.

Did you know that BT players also scrape off the aquila on their armor?

Yeah your favorite NLs author caused that.

[Kol Saresk]

First the Aquila. Tomorrow it will be their loyalty to the Corpse-Emperor!

 

That reminds me, I need to write background for a Traitor Templar for Hellchyld...

[depthcharge12]

Hmm

 

alternate history where sigismund is a world eater, the Lord of the Pits

 

might have to look into that

[Scribe]

 

Re: Atramentar, they could be like the Phoenix Terminators we see, or the Deathshroud. A special breed of Terminator.

Possibly. Although what we know about them suggests a position similar to the Justaerin and the Grave Wardens rather than the Primarch's Bodyguard retinue, such as the Phoenix Guard, the Devourers and the Death Shroud. Not saying you're wrong, just that what relatively little have points in a different, but similar direction.

 

I  didn't even realize the Phoenix Guard where body guards. :D

 

Either way, I see them as something different from 'just' terminators.

[Kol Saresk]

Yep, fully agree. Elite has to mean something after all!

[Flint13]

Excellent! Thanks for the info so far, guys. I really appreciate it. I have a decent backstory all put together, I just need to think of a good reason why a Nightlords warband would be 50% terminators... I kinda have a thing for 2+ armor saves And dammit, I bought 15 cataphractii and 20 tartaros terminators from forgeworld, I'm going to use them somehow!

Most of those make plenty of sense. I think it would be a fun idea to see a Nightlord training shock and awe tactics with the World Eaters, or Swordcraft with the Ultramarines and Dark Angels, or even their loyalist counterparts in the Ravenguard.

Speaking of Ultramarines, does anyone have any additional info on the swordsmen the Ultramarines trained? I believe they were called the Everkarti or something similar. I just re-read Betrayer which made me think of it.

The only one I'm still curious about is the chaplain issue. The Nightlords certainly weren't the type to pay heed to imperial decrees. Weren't the chaplains created for the sole purpose of enforcing the decision of Nikea? Then again, a Nightlords chaplain is kinda badass... instead of preaching the imperial truth, they can uphold the virtues of hate and spite ^_^

@Scribe - I seem to remember the HH novel Fulgrim describing the Phoenix Guard, but I never remembered them being terminators. I just assumed they were artificer armored veterans. So we learn new things from FW all the time!

[WarSpirit]

Yeah sigismund learned the practice of chaining weapons from the WE. It was a WE tradition, it's stated in the audio book Butcher's nails. Doesn't state if it was exchange program or if he learned it because they fought in compliances sith the WE.

[DuskRaider]

Actually, a lot of the background shows that the Night Lord's DID follow the Imperial Creed. There's also a lot of info (albeit from the mouths of Night Lords themselves) that the Emperor sanctioned their actions. Before their rebellion, Curse and his Legion were very much devoted to the Emperor, unlike Angron.

[Flint13]

Good point DuskRaider. I'll admit, I've been doing 40k for maybe a bit too long. It's occasionally difficult to remember that the Nightlords started off a lot more "reserved" than they are now. 

 

I think that's probably a lot of what makes the legion so likeably tragic, even though they are "bad" guys. Kurse sacrificed what humanity remained to him and his legion to become the best weapon in his father's arsenal, and was still put down like a rabid dog. 

 

Emo like a champ!

[Kol Saresk]

Excellent! Thanks for the info so far, guys. I really appreciate it. I have a decent backstory all put together, I just need to think of a good reason why a Nightlords warband would be 50% terminators... I kinda have a thing for 2+ armor saves And dammit, I bought 15 cataphractii and 20 tartaros terminators from forgeworld, I'm going to use them somehow!

Actually it may not be that bad. For example, the Night Lords have the option to buy a Teleportation Transponder in order to have Deep Strike and Sevatar has a rule that Terminators will not scatter if they deepstrike within 6 inches of him. The Rite of War itself seems to focus on Drop Pod Assaults and, if done correctly, could really help with Deepstriking as well through the use of the Transponders.

So actually you'd just have to create the Company, call it a Heavy Assault Company(made it up off the top of my head) and you're good.

[Emperor's Furor]

All Justaerins are Terminators but not all Terminators are Justaerins, is pointed out in the rules that Justaerins must be painted and modelled different to standard terminators. Loken also has some standard Terminators with him when he goes to quell the rebellion in Horus Rising.

[Wade Garrett]

Actually, a lot of the background shows that the Night Lord's DID follow the Imperial Creed. There's also a lot of info (albeit from the mouths of Night Lords themselves) that the Emperor sanctioned their actions.

 

Mainly from Sahaal and Talos. There are also many statements from Krieg Acrebus and Xarl, among others, that they murdered their way across the stars because their enemies were weak and fear smells oh so sweet, with Curze's belief that the Emperor signed off on his atrocities and then sanctioned him for them being the result of nothing except the Night Haunter's own mental degeneration.

[Flint13]

@Wade - That's one thing I love about the Nightlords' novels and short stories over the years. We get so many different views of them from differing points of perception. There are so many different warbands as well, you can really craft one that suits your style and what your vision of them should be. I've seen many different interpretations of the 8th, from embittered, betrayed sons of a martyred father to galaxy reaving terrorists who enforce thier will on the weak as it is their right for being the stronger. 

 

@Kol - Thanks for reminding me of that! I've actually been playing some 30k games with friends using the Nightlords rules culled from that single trailer page. I am absolutely *loving* the chain glaives. Something I'm curious about... I wonder if the new "Terror Squads" in Massacre will have the ability to take a Nuncio-vox like normal marine squads can? No scattering would be money with a bunch of deep-striking Atramentar. 

[Disruptor_fe404]

Sorry to butt in, but out of curiosity, was there a name for the Legion exchange program?

[Conn Eremon]

I sincerely doubt it, because there wasn't a uniform program. Some Legions had their own, like the Thousand Sons, Word Bearers and Space Wolves, but they were entirely separate things. The only other stuff we see could easily be explained as just circumstantial, as someone already pointed out that Sigismund and Khârn could be a case like Loken and Lucius, or Khârn and Argel Tal. No program, just two or more Legions sharing space.

[Scribe]

 

Actually, a lot of the background shows that the Night Lord's DID follow the Imperial Creed. There's also a lot of info (albeit from the mouths of Night Lords themselves) that the Emperor sanctioned their actions.

 

Mainly from Sahaal and Talos. There are also many statements from Krieg Acrebus and Xarl, among others, that they murdered their way across the stars because their enemies were weak and fear smells oh so sweet, with Curze's belief that the Emperor signed off on his atrocities and then sanctioned him for them being the result of nothing except the Night Haunter's own mental degeneration.

 

I think the truth will, as usual, fall somewhere in the middle.

 

Look at Vulkan Lives, even Vulkan accepts that what the Night Lords did to that first city served a greater end, and cut down on civilian losses....right up until Curze decided that everyone needed to die anyway.

 

There likely was a time early in the crusade when the methods of Curze and the Night Lords where very much approved of by the Emperor or those who tracked such things.

 

Quick compliance, low collateral damage, low civilian casualties, and off to the next engagement. Its only as the recruitment starts to go off the rails again, and Curze begins to see his fate lining up down the decades, that morality falls away, and judgement becomes secondary to terror.

[Wade Garrett]

That makes sense. Even Sevatar talks about how Curze was more stable (IIRC he actually uses the word "noble") when he first came to the Legion, and says Konrad is losing it as the Crusade and the Heresy after that drags on. And when Mr. "I eat eyeballs and torture loyalists to create my own devoted minions" thinks you're losing it, well...