Blood of Asaheim

[Eddie Orlock]

I have the vague recollection that in the third ed space marine book, or was it codex: Ultramarines wherein successors got business card sized token descriptions the one for the Templar was that they were remarkable for their embrace of the Cult Imperialis. This may have been retconned in 'Dex: Templar so what we may have here via retconned retcon is a setting right what once went wrong.

[*Furyou Miko]

The only one to willingly fall.  Some have been tricked, some have been corrupted, but only Miriael turned on her own.

I refute your claims for lack of evidence. Being corrupted requires the choice to turn, unless you mean mutation through warp exposure, which in no way makes them less loyal.

[Eddie Orlock]

 

The only one to willingly fall.  Some have been tricked, some have been corrupted, but only Miriael turned on her own.

I refute your claims for lack of evidence. Being corrupted requires the choice to turn, unless you mean mutation through warp exposure, which in no way makes them less loyal.

Long enough exposure to the eye, or the wastes at the poles of the warhammer world, will eventually corrode the will and sanity of the traveler and subvert them. There are similar concepts in a lot of cthylu mythos works wherein exposure to the reality warping magic eventually drives the investigators insane. This is again noted in Gav's Opus Inquisitor where it was recorded that the older an inquisitor is, the more likely he is to be a radical as a result of his exposure to dark forces. I recall mechanics to this effect are also implemented in some of the splat books for FFG's RPGs. Any body can be the play thing of Chaos if they can first burn out the mind. It's just they tend to find mindless servents both dull and non-contributory of the psychic energy they need to survive.

 

This is probably enough evidence to support Fibonacci's claim that some have been unwillingly corrupted, and many are at very least tainted. I suspect what really happens is that the sisterhood carefully monitors and records its members exposure to Heresy and dark sites like we record the exposure of workers who deal with radioactive material. When they've had a statistically likely 'dose' they find themselves rotated off the front lines and cloistered into a non-combat role, or possibly committed to the repentia to die before sucombing depending on their respective symptoms of exposure.

 

From what I recall of the various game implementations theirs a fair level of 'taint' that can be carried before it starts to hamper a characters actions, it's just a latent liability. In FFG's stuff, Marines have a special ability to supress the lesser manifestations of this taint as a gift of the Emperor's genecraft and psycho-conditioning, but they're no more over all resistant and still must be careful. The threat of Chaos is insideous and hubris is a weakness that the Sororita are well advised to guard against.

[tvih]

More BT stuff in spoilers, read at your own peril.

 

I didn't see any citations to Codexes, White Dwarf articles, or anything of that nature in those links you provided, just a bunch of "Internet blowhards" loudly stating what they consider the Black Templars to be, and varyingly sad or angry that Games Workshop DARED to contradict it.

Because applying reading comprehension and basic common sense makes on an "Internet blowhard." Good times.

 

The only thing like a decent source for "NO WE DON'T WORSHIP THE EMPEROR!" is ADB's short story...which clashes with the novel Helsreach, where Grimmaldus threatens a Titan Princeps for insinuating the Emperor is not her deity, choses to make his last stand in a place sacred to the Ecclesiarchy and accepts a blessing in the name of the God Emperor from an SoB Canoness. Which was also written by ADB. Huh?

If Grimaldus was a frothing-at-the-mouth-crazed God-worshipping nut, he would've struck down the Princeps on the spot just like certain other organizations would. The obvious interpretation compared to the rest of the fluff and Blood and Fire is - and this is how I interpreted it even when the first time I read it a year ago - that Grimaldus was merely conveniently using the Imperial Creed as leverage to get the Princeps to do what he wanted. After all the Creed is the "official" thing in the Imperium, so why not use it as a means to an end? Technically going against it is "illegal" even for a Space Marine, though obviously there really isn't anyone who could enforce it on the marines.

 

As for the Temple, it was an important part of Armageddon history and a temple with revered artifacts, that doesn't have to have anything to do with godhood to select it as the place for a last stand. And as for the "Canoness" (who was actually a Prioress) part, it's not like a marine would go on a decapitating spree just because someone calls the Emperor God-Emperor, or offers a blessing in his name. If they did, there wouldn't be any Ecclesiarchy and such left.

Anyway, you wanted some quotes, here goes.

"To prove his loyalty to the Emperor, the first High Marshal of the Black Templars, Sigismund, assembled a massive war fleet and began the greatest Space Marine crusade in the history of the Imperium." Codex: Armageddon, page 21. Loyalty? Worshipping the Emperor as God is not loyalty, because he forbade it. Seriously, this alone is enough to make God-worship stupid. C:BT mentions Sigismund's "faith in the Emperor", but not God-Emperor, nor does faith require a God. Dorn would be spinning in his grave for such nonsense. Initial BT marines were IF Legion marines and as such would never have been of the "God-Emperor" persuasion.

 

"For ten thousand years, the Black Templars have crusaded to prove their loyalty" Codex: Black Templars, page 8. Oh look, loyalty again.

 

"Although utterly loyal to the Emperor, the Black Templars are at the extreme end of independence from the Imperial authorities, verging on a rogue element." C:BT, page 9. Not exactly the description of a chapter that supposedly adheres to the Ecclesiarchy's version of the Imperial Creed more closely than any other marine chapter.

 

Oh, screw it. No amount of quotes no matter what the content is going to silence the "OLOLOLO GOD-EMPEROR" crowd, even when they can't really answer how is going against the Emperor's orders loyal or why would have they disobeyed them to begin with and as such basically piss on Dorn and Sigismund (and the Emperor) as well, or why Codex: Black Templars never ONCE mentions the god-aspect if they were always meant to be such god-worshippers. They just blather on about faith and "prayers" being proof, as if those require a god when they certainly do not. And while you can go ahead and claim they were always meant to be god-worshippers, that's just what YOU consider the BT the be, without anything solid to back it up - something you accused the poster to which I linked was guilty of. The new codex proves nothing about the way things were before given GW's willingness to retcon anything and everything.

 

Basically I could just as well call Sisters psykers for their "acts of faith" as you could call BT god-worshippers based on pre-new-codex stuff. Just about as valid a leap of logic.

 

 

 

More on topic, I certainly need to get some of the books in which Sisters are the "main faction" rather than minor sidekicks. I've been meaning to get my hands on Faith & Fire and Hammer & Anvil for a long time, but never got around to it.

[Warsmith Aznable]

 

The only one to willingly fall.  Some have been tricked, some have been corrupted, but only Miriael turned on her own.

I refute your claims for lack of evidence. Being corrupted requires the choice to turn, unless you mean mutation through warp exposure, which in no way makes them less loyal.

 

I've heard of a Sister or two willingly turning to Tzeentch on the table top...

[SinnerBeta]

 

Sick burn. Completely proves me wrong.

In no way have you proven yourself right either.

I did actually. I pointed out what the codex says and what it doesn't. No opinions, just facts.

 

What you did is present your interpretation and the interpretations of two people that share your opinion. Not to mention, your response to what Wade said is again, your interpretation of a scene where Grimaldus calls Emp a god. Still, it's a step up from your other argument: "you don't get BT". I'm sorry, but we do. So please stop acting like they're some alternative movie that only few people will get.

 

And I can as easily turn those quotes around, trying to pick words apart to support my theory just like you did. Or build a whole argument supporting my theory around nothing like you did. But I'd rather not, because it seems that despite what you write in the last big paragraph, there's no convincing YOU.

 

Plus I think you're taking this too seriously and I'm starting to get creeped out.

[tvih]

 

I did actually. I pointed out what the codex says and what it doesn't. No opinions, just facts.

The fact that matters here is that the dedicated C:BT did not say we worship the God-Emperor. There is no way around that. That they do is purely your interpretation. How you - and others who share your view - can be blind to that while accusing me - and those who share my view - of having "just an interpretation" is beyond me. At least my interpretation has some sense behind it in light of the background of the founding of the chapter, as I demonstrated. Like it or not, they are logical arguments. But even those arguments aside as said at the end of the day the undeniable fact is that C:BT doesn't mention or even insinuate God-Emperor-worship.

 

Besides in case you didn't know, soldiers in space are serious business. You can't expect to act dismissively with your "come out of the closet" crap and not receive some crap in return. It is my main army, I've spent a lot of time and money building it. I've spent a lot of time reading and absorbing its fluff and lore and getting accustomed to it, and I got into it originally because I liked the way it was. Then GW slaps me in the face by not only taking away our own codex - which I could've lived with since it gave me access to a lot of units that I like and ensures being up to date in the future in a timely manner - but by also changing core aspects of our fluff. And then you come trolololoing about it like a smug little heretic and you expect me not to be annoyed? So I'll stay in my "closet" and you can feel free to go back to under your bridge, thank you very much.

 

 

[Wade Garrett]

This is again noted in Gav's Opus Inquisitor where it was recorded that the older an inquisitor is, the more likely he is to be a radical as a result of his exposure to dark forces.

Dan Abnett wrote the Inquisitor books, not Gav Thorpe. And the bit you're referencing is the boasting of a notorious heretic. Is there some truth in it? Maybe. Should it be taken as objectively true fact? Considering the source, negatory.

 

Dan Abnett also gives a quotation from Inquisitor Ravenor stating that if a man steels his soul he may resist the whiles of Chaos, borne out by the fact that Ibrahim Gaunt and his team are able to survive for an extended length of time on the corrupted world of Gereon without succumbing to the taint of Chaos. And it pretty much is objective fact that the Faith of the Sisters is stronger than steel.

 

My armor is contempt!

My shield is disgust!

My sword is hatred!

 

In the holy name of the God Emperor, let not a heretic survive!

[Eddie Orlock]

 

This is again noted in Gav's Opus Inquisitor where it was recorded that the older an inquisitor is, the more likely he is to be a radical as a result of his exposure to dark forces.

Dan Abnett wrote the Inquisitor books, not Gav Thorpe.

Me thunks you need to expand your reference pool. Page 4 of this lovely .pdf clearly attributes authorship of the game Inquisitor to Gav. As a studio source book written in an omniscient voice this is pretty close to 'holy word of god' for these kinds of debate.

[Veteran Sergeant]

The reality is that the Black Templars have been one of the most poorly written of Space Marine chapters after the Ultramarines. A lot of authors had different concepts of what the Black Templars were, and thus there are inconsistencies. 

 

Some authors get confused by the "religious theme" and took that +7. However, none of the original, "official" BT fluff ever spoke of them being adherents to the Imperial Cult. And by that token, there is merit in the idea of the Black Templars following the "Space Marines don't believe in the Emperor as a god" by default. In fact, a lot of the older fluff makes more sense when you think of the Black Templars as extremely devout, but to the Emperor's vision if not to the Emperor himself. Most tellingly, there's no mention in Index Astartes: Black Templars about their belief in the Imperial Truth, and that's a piece that's all fluff, no rules. 

Realistically, given all that's changed, we might as well refer to Black Templars 1.0 and Black Templars 2.0.

 

1.0 hated all manner of witches, were so ridiculously devoted to the Emprah as the Emprah that they were stuck living 10,000 years in the past and had crazy visions of him. The guy who spazzed out the hardest got a cool suit of armor and this bitchen sword. They hated aliens and heretics and people who wore white after Labor Day. Just about everybody hated them too, probably because they were about as much fun to be around as Patty and Selma Bouvier.

 

2.0 just don't like everybody else's witches and are maybe kinda sorta hating aliens. They worship the Emperor as a god, get along like bestest buddies with the Inquisition and Ecclessiarchy who apparently look the other way when it comes to the fact that the Black Templars run a massively illegal army and break just about every rule there is for Space Marines. They're also suddenly embracing of mobile artillery, Devastators, and scout squads.

[Fibonacci]

Seriously, if you go here ...

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/7-black-templars/

You can find lots of people who want to talk about the Black Templars.

[Aqui]

Seriously, if you go here ...

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/7-black-templars/

You can find lots of people who want to talk about the Black Templars.

Agreed. Quite disrespectful to the OP, taking the topic deeply off target, despite quite a few attempts to get it back.

[AdmLancel]

On topic, it sounds like another unfortunate chapter in the depiction of the Sisterhood, and a fairly generic Yay Space Marines at that.  Heck, sometimes it feels like they just cram the Sisters in there to cram the Sisters in there, almost like "Huh, I need some inquisitorial people to fill this role I have in the book, but I'm tired of using Inquisitors and stuff.  OH I KNOW!  I'LL USE THE SISTERS!"  I mostly blame Codex: Witchhunters for this, as it seems the notion of the SIsters being basically the Inquisition's loyal army permeated from that, when they really aren't that close.

 

Unfortunately there just isn't much to actually defeat notions on how Sisters should be depicted, and personally I feel that not very many people know what a good Sisters depiction actually is and simply default to how often they showed up in the selected work.  Not their fault, there aren't many depictions of Sisters in general, and what depictions the are are often based on the same misconceptions.  And well, it is 40k, so Grimdark is the status quo, and in some ways the depiction of the Sisters we might want contradicts that.

 

On the topic of Faith and Fire since I've been reading that recently:

 

 

The bit where Miriya could do nothing about a thug pinning her to a wall despite her explicitly being in her power armor was indeed baffling.  While there are ways it could have been addressed (damage to her armor from her recent fall, something unusual about the thug), it was not addressed, and it really should have been I felt.

 

 

Also the list of Sisters appearances would be pretty sweet.

[vonny]

another sister (yes, singular) appearance I enjoyed was in one of the gaunt's ghosts book, where a 'retired' sister was watching over a shrine. She was old, I believe close to blind, and it was, overall, a short cameo, but Gaunt was really impressed by her and with her, and she did feel a notch above the average human due to her battle experience, her strength of faith and her wisdom in life, even though she was no longer fit for battle herself.

 

There is slightly more to this story, but that'd be spoilers and not important to the point I'm making here. I liked her cameo appearance, even if it was just one encounter with one sister.