Unremembered Empire....initial review

[Kol Saresk]

 

Has it not been made clear that Primarchs have no bulletproof skin? Or armour, for that matter. A Primarch's 'invulnerability' relies on him evading enemy rounds or killing said enemy before they fire. Which is much easier when you charge and have momentum in open ground, like Corax, than when ten bolters are aimed right at you from all the right angles.

You mean the Primarchs can bleed?!?!?!?!?! That's news to me! [/sarcasm]

 

Cerbero: It was not a bolt round, I can tell you that much. And even Fulgrim said that it just happened to bounce along the inside of his skull just the right way.

[Wade Garrett]

Angel Exterminatus mentions Iron Hands scoring direct hits on Perturabo with a variety of high powered weapons, to little effect. As for Fulgrim's "Oh, it's getting dark. Hold me..." in the same book, I'm labeling that as him being a drama queen. Especially since Perturabo says that both he and Fulgrim have healed from worse wounds in their time.

 

As for Primarch armor being no protection against bolt rounds...really guys? Ordinary Astartes plate enables the wearer to tank bolt rounds unless they hit an eye lens (Know No Fear, Blood Reaver).

 

And the idea that Primarchs rely on dodging attacks...yeah. That's exactly the impression every description we have of a Primarch in battle suggests. Angron, Ferrous, Mortarion...all of them backflipping through the air, their vulnerable bodies gracefully slipping in between bullets and blades.

[Cerbero666]

 

 

Has it not been made clear that Primarchs have no bulletproof skin? Or armour, for that matter. A Primarch's 'invulnerability' relies on him evading enemy rounds or killing said enemy before they fire. Which is much easier when you charge and have momentum in open ground, like Corax, than when ten bolters are aimed right at you from all the right angles.

You mean the Primarchs can bleed?!?!?!?!?! That's news to me! [/sarcasm]

 

Cerbero: It was not a bolt round, I can tell you that much. And even Fulgrim said that it just happened to bounce along the inside of his skull just the right way.

 

Yes that's it, I read it again and the weapon that Sharrowkyn used against Fulgrim is a "needle-carbine", and that even with Fulgrim's chaotic powers and all almost killed him (or not since as Wade said he's a drama queen), but an explosive bullet is other thing. I don't know why people get so stress when it's stated that 10 superwarriors with explosive shells in their boltguns could actually kill a primarch. Hell, try to put one in the Emperors head (whitout his psychic powers obviously) and I could assure that he would die too.

[Greyall]

 

 

Has it not been made clear that Primarchs have no bulletproof skin? Or armour, for that matter. A Primarch's 'invulnerability' relies on him evading enemy rounds or killing said enemy before they fire. Which is much easier when you charge and have momentum in open ground, like Corax, than when ten bolters are aimed right at you from all the right angles.

You mean the Primarchs can bleed?!?!?!?!?! That's news to me! [/sarcasm]

 

I do not see your point there, Kol. Since you're not one to usually waste sarcasm away, I'll listen first.

 

I thought you were 'with Guilliman' on this one, anyway.

 

Of course I didn't mean that Primarch armour doesn't sustain a direct bolter hit. We're talking full auto levels here. Lorgar takes a round to the face in First Heretic that crumples his helmet.

 

Again, priority should go to the plot and great action scenes. Which usually work best when one side doesn't decimate the other in twelve seconds.

 

This assassination scene is an awesome insight into Guilliman's mind, how he forces his analytical self down in favour of acting. It shows both how overanalysis is ingrained in him and how much in control of his own mind he can be. The end is nothing short of cheerworthy.

 

Edit: Cheers, Kol. Blame Monday morning =)

[Kol Saresk]

Cerbero: Technically, we don't know if they can kill a Primarch. ;)

 

Greyall: I am. I'm reinforcing your point.

 

And when things are put into perspective, Vulkan was still killed by a fork. So ten Astartes, not so bad in my opinion.

[Wade Garrett]

So now bolt rounds are more destructive than power weapons? You know, like the one Guilliman got hit in the face with on Nuceria and all Iit did was make him mad?

 

It was quite a lucky break for the Loyalists Lorgar had his dinky little power maul instead of a bolter. The 40k timeline would be very different otherwise.

[Kol Saresk]

Armor piercing explosive made to punch through the very armor Primarchs and Astartes wear versus a blunt object covered in electricity.

 

Yes, I'm pretty sure the bolt round has more chance of penetrating than Illuminarium.

[Greyall]

Aye, Wade, localized force. And spinning, on top of it.

 

Again, though, we shouldn't be discussing this as if Primarch powers weren't mostly made with a certain scene or plot in mind.

 

I don't assume Angron to be able to lift Titans. He simply went into desperation mode - even then, his muscles snapped. In the same line, Guilliman's next story might have him suplexing a Contemptor - and I won't be the one shouting 'incoherent'.

[Kol Saresk]

Didn't Angron get entire chunks shot off while he was ascending?

[Wade Garrett]

Didn't Angron get entire chunks shot off while he was ascending?

What? Angron was shot by BOLTERS and didn't die? I demand this ADB fellow be dragged through the streets and pilloried for committing such tommyrot to the printed page! Every portrayal of the almighty bolter in fiction and on the tabletop has shown it to be far superior to those worthless powerfists and pathetic lightning claws.

 

If Angron was shot by bolters he should have been dead as the balanced budget, Chaos reality hax be hanged.

[Greyall]

Yep. He screamed in pain, too, if memory serves, though it might've been because of the ritual.

 

I was watching the first Lord of the Rings yesterday and was reminded of Primarchs in the first battle scene. Sauron home-runs row after row of enemy soldiers but when the human prince slashes, he does get cut.

 

@Wade: My impression is that power weapons are usually toned down or aren't exactly what the label says. When I first read about them in the codices, their field was supposed to simply ignore matter, but that's clearly not the case. It just makes it easier for them to penetrate. It works pretty well with swords, axes and spears, but blunt power weapons function through trauma-induction, it seems.they stun and maim, but don't rip entire chunks. In Know no Fear, a powerpunch by an Ultramarine leaves a Word Bearer's head a wreck (and he dies instantly) when in probably should've just vaporized his skull and helm.

 

Even bolters are uneven. In the Night Lords trilogy, a standoff between two claws ends with the main characters hurt and their armours shattered in multiple places, but they remain pretty much unscathed. Guilliman's armour, though, seems to shatter pretty easily under one round only and there are other examples of bolter rounds penetrating power armour like it was nothing.

 

The UM captain in the beginning of Know no Fear dies to a single plasma shot, but in other instances it takes two or more plasma shots and a torrent of bolter rounds to down a single Terminator.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Didn't Angron get entire chunks shot off while he was ascending?

What? Angron was shot by BOLTERS and didn't die? I demand this ADB fellow be dragged through the streets and pilloried for committing such tommyrot to the printed page! Every portrayal of the almighty bolter in fiction and on the tabletop has shown it to be far superior to those worthless powerfists and pathetic lightning claws.

 

If Angron was shot by bolters he should have been dead as the balanced budget, Chaos reality hax be hanged.

Unless I'm mistaken, Guilliman didn't die either. He was put into the Apothecary. And for not that long either. But of course, bolters vs Primarchs equals balderdash. Because 40K.

[Augustus]

I don't want to stoke the fires but I feel it as Kol said. Guillimen was sitting at his desk, unarmored when he gets 10 bolters poured into. Did I mention he kills all of them in under like 40 seconds? I feel it is also as ADB said with each artist having different styles. For the most part Dan Abnett has primarchs being post post human but still that. You can argue about the possible OTT-ness of Curze but if it was Abnett's attempt at creating a comic esque story villain he did exactly that.

 

I mean the Lion underhandedly put a sword through Curze's gut and almost winds up losing. Then the Lion puts him down in under 60 seconds then fights him to an even standstill a third time. Who's "better"? The answer is neither of them.

 

Guillimen will have his moment. I feel the Lion, along with Curze, had his in UR.

So much high praise from Guillimen it was...awesome.

 

 

I actually prefer all of the Primarchs to be written with the idea of less is more.

 

--also isn't Curze reflecting corruption? Isn't that another reason to explain how he went super duper on his Rampage on Maccrage?

[Kol Saresk]

Yep. Chances are that in Round Two of Maccragge, Curze will be annihilated by Guilliman.

[Greyall]

I know Guilliman looks up to the Lion as an older brother, but could you spoiler us a bit more on that praise?

 

The Lion wasn't even part of Guilliman's 'Top 5', though that list had other criteria, namely teamwork.

[Verity]

I was actually kinda interested by a lot of Gulliman's insights we get in this novel.

 

 

The idea that he really looked up to Horus and The Lion (the only two brothers he admired), mentioned alongside the fact that they were both "the first" in their own ways - The Lion being the Primarch of the First Legion, and Horus being the first found, and the one who became Warmaster. Him seeing Horus as too bloodthirsty, even before Chaos, and the Lion as a highly secretive individual, and therefore one that can't be trusted despite the sheer quality his Legion shows. The fact that he flat out refused to believe his brothers were capable of this evil - he seems to truly think that it's the fault of Chaos and Chaos alone. 

 

Expanding on the way he views the Lion, there was also the bits about the First Legion being around before all the others during the earliest bits of the Crusade and before that. The stuff about them growing used to having no support but themselves to rely on, becoming insular and secretive and seeing and doing things they never speak of.

 

This and the fact that he reckons the Emperor engineered the Primarchs being scattered, that was a little bit unexpected.

 

[Legatus]

I somehow was hoping for a Guilliman moment in Know No Fear, but was sorely disappointed. So far the best we got was him not immediately being curb stomped when facing an Angron and Lorgar tag team. But then he was not able to outmaneouver them either (y'know, like Leman Russ did...). So I would put the "awesome Guilliman moments" at 0 for now. Though Know No Fear did have a scene where he was sitting on his desk and doing some rainman logistics...

 

But at least I still have that awesome moment A D-B keeps mentioning to look forward to.

[Augustus]

Good points, Verity.

 

I like how

Guillimen thinks Horus only truly savored winning the Warmaster mantle over the Lion

 

 

There have been some awesome Ultramarine moments though.

[Greyall]

Thanks, guys.

[Aristander]

UE is the first HH book I've bought, primarily because I wanted to get an idea of RG's character, and an insight into what life on Macragge was like - on neither count was I disappointed.  I thought RG came across as hugely impressive, and most importantly, not perfect.  This primarily related to his personality, in terms of his combat prowess...

 

 

...I had always wondered why Primarchs, who are practically demi-gods, had personal bodyguards.  In the ambush scene, and in Euten's chastising of the Ultramarine officers, I got my answer - the Primarch's are just as much human as demi-gods, and if you put an unprepared, unarmoured, unarmed Primarch in a room with ten Adeptus Astartes, he's going to have a task on his hands to ensure his survival.

 

The fluff has always been inconsistent in terms of combat performance, consider it the joy of having multiple writers working on such a vast background.  We have examples of Angron destroying titans, whereas Sanguinius has his legs broke by a Bloodthirster, a powerful but very manageable unit in a tabletop game.

 

[Karthak]

 

And the idea that Primarchs rely on dodging attacks...yeah. That's exactly the impression every description we have of a Primarch in battle suggests. Angron, Ferrous, Mortarion...all of them backflipping through the air, their vulnerable bodies gracefully slipping in between bullets and blades.

Hmm. There have been exceptions. In The Reflection Crack'd, Fulgrim gets ambushed by over a dozen of his Legion's best, while he is unarmed and unarmoured. He only gets knocked out after getting a power fist to the skull and then a sonic cannon repeatedly shoots him in the face at point blank range. And before that he took a lot of hits.

[Wade Garrett]

I am enrages at the outrageous distortions of the truth being slung around on this thread!

 

LEMAN RUSS NEVER OUTMANUVERED LORGAR!

 

Also, guys? The description of the attack specifically mentions bolt rounds striking Rob's armor. Given the damage they did, either the Alphas had +5 Vorpal Primarchbane Bolters, or else they had already infiltrated a guy to replace Rob's armor with cardboard and paper mache.

[Greyall]

That's truish. It just goes to show plot armour doesn't always mean 'reinforced'. =)

[Kol Saresk]

I am enrages at the outrageous distortions of the truth being slung around on this thread!

 

LEMAN RUSS NEVER OUTMANUVERED LORGAR!

 

Also, guys? The description of the attack specifically mentions bolt rounds striking Rob's armor. Given the damage they did, either the Alphas had +5 Vorpal Primarchbane Bolters, or else they had already infiltrated a guy to replace Rob's armor with cardboard and paper mache.

And there is also mention of Rob's armor being penetrated. It wouldn't be the first time Power Armor was penetrated by a bolt round either. From Deliverance Lost, we know the Tratiors' standard ammunition was designed to do just that. So, Power Armor would only offer limited protection.

 

And Aristander, good point on the bodyguard units.

[Haranin]

I am sure a AL assassin squad would have stock standard bolter rounds rather then hand loaded specially designed and built shells.....

 

Even in 30k there are limited stocks of the good stuff like mproved bolter shells. Going prim arch hunting? You are going to be loaded for it.