Unremembered Empire....initial review

[Conn Eremon]

@Marshal: Does she come off as power-hungry?

Nah, not really. Just practical, and clearly favoring her own son. Mostly, she wants Imperium 2 to happen to protect him from being "too much to too many." It's out of maternal love.

 

Edit: She's a pragmatic, politically savvy mom who cares most of all for her son's well-being.

[Verity]

Never entirely sure of what should be spoilered and what shouldn't...

 

 

 

Interesting that the Alphas managed another infiltration - this time a fairly big one, and one that makes the score between Alpharius and Robute a tad more personal. I'm actually a big fan of them, but at the same time, I'm liking where this will all, if I'm optimistic, lead - to all their clandestine tactics and infiltrators meaning nothing when Robute launches the assault to kill Alpharius. Seriously, for me at least, I can already see that being one of the best scenes to read...I'm hoping as well that they play it straight and have an actual confirmed kill of Alpharius, as opposed to the possibilities we see dancing about, with it all being off Gulliman's prowess. I wasn't even too much of a fan of him until recently, but this is still a must have. 

 

 

 

Also, I quite liked the inclusion of Gulliman's mother. 

 

She stood up to Curze like a champ at the end.

 

[Cerbero666]

But what if it was a power fork? This debate is infinite hahaha

[Marshal Rohr]

I just thought it was funny how she was telling him she was more proud of her eighth found Primarch of the XIII legion over the Lion like a mom telling her son she thinks he's special even if another boy won the game.

[Aristander]

I just thought it was funny how she was telling him she was more proud of her eighth found Primarch of the XIII legion over the Lion like a mom telling her son she thinks he's special even if another boy won the game.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of another Primarch who would have had a more "normal" upbringing than him?

[Greyall]

Nice, sounds like an interesting ladie. Which begs the question:

 

 

Does she die?

 

 

Regarding the Lion, we see Guilly has tons of respect for Jonson, but how does he behave? Like an older brother/arrogant/friendlier than usual?

 

The Lion I know would've had a hard time not letting that older brother status rise to his head a bit.

[Conn Eremon]

Greyall:

 

Almost. Almost. And I mean really :cuss ing close.

 

[Kol Saresk]

Do we even know if the fork killing was real?

 

 

Wasn't Vulkan in sort of a fugue state and couldn't distinguish reality from not?

 

I haven't read the book, but from spoilers it seemed like he was in and out of it due to torture (which is completely possible, and a method of torture to screw with the victims circadian rythms and whatnot)

The fork was real enough that Vulkan could describe the entire scene in detail. In fact, the fork scene is the very scene where Vulkan goes "KILL ME!" and Curze says that he already has dozen of times. What we come to is that later on in the novel, Vulkan thinks Corax is jailbreaking him. They run through the ship, kill some Night Lords, so on so forth, and then get cornered by Curze and some Atramentar. From there, Curze makes Vulkan and Corax duel. At the end of it, you find out that the whole escape thing was a pipe dream created by a small cabal of Davinite Priests, who Curze kills saying "They served their purpose." The debate becomes just how far back did the pipe dream go. Theoretically, it could be the whole novel from Istvaan V to that point. Theoretically. Practically, we can only confirm the escape attempt.

 

However, each scene where Vulkan is tortured that is mentioned in the book, is put in extreme detail. Even later on when he's running through the Iron Labyrinth and is Hulking out.

 

Another part of the debate was that Vulkan believed he was seeing an incarnation of the Emperor and that any torture scene that incarnation wasn't in must be the pipe-dream. Except that it throws the order out of whack since the first two torture scenes do not have that incarnation in them.

 

The only truly conclusive answer is that the escape attempt is the pipe dream. Without further evidence, it comes down to Vulkan can't prove it wasn't real, so we can't prove that it wasn't real. But to him, watching his ribcage being opened up and his organs spilling out counted as another death.

 

EDIT: But even if its fake, then it means that being killed by a fork is believable to Vulkan.

[Greyall]

 

Haha. I knew Curze went to kill her, but didn't know if he actually did the deed, thanks.

 

 

Curze actually brings up how normal Roboute's upbringing was, right? Interesting attitude, if petty.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, part of Curze's attitude is that right now, he just wants to destroy everything around him. Literally. He sees Macragge as something to be defiled. Any pretenses of being a fallen, twisted noble who was paving the road to hell with good intentions, died the moment he ran from the Lion in Prince of Crows. Now, his fall is complete and total. If it somehow wasn't before.

[Conn Eremon]

You got the Wolves to thank for distracting him long enough for Vulkan to show.

[Augustus]

About the relationship

I would argue its like an younger brother looking up to an older brother. He's very impressed with the Lion's accomplishments. He insinuates that even Horus may have felt some sort of competition with him(Lion). It's like...Guillimen felt that if he did something awesome it's not that awesome because Horus or the Lion did it first. Or at least that is sorta the impression I felt.

[Greyall]

But does the Lion acknowledge Guilliman's admiration? I got the impression that El'Jonson dropped his jerk attitude a bit.

[Conn Eremon]

He seemed surprised by it, as if he felt Guilliman's own accomplishments stood up quite well all by itself.

[Kol Saresk]

Although the whole "We need to be open and honest to each other" coming from each Primarch while each Primarch kept trying to hide secrets was weird.

[Artemid]

Although the whole "We need to be open and honest to each other" coming from each Primarch while each Primarch kept trying to hide secrets was weird.

But incredibly human.

[depthcharge12]

Im glad Lion El'Johnson is getting better face time and doesn't look like a pragmatic lunatic.

 

 

I think I will need to get this book!

 

 

Plus Guilliman having admiration for the Lion? Wow that's actually pretty cool as opposed to, "The Lion? Wait, this guy is actually part of the Great crusade?"

 

 

I just got the feeling from the other 2 DA HH books that he was on the fringe as much as Jaghati was.The only other time he talks to a Primarch was giving Perturabo the ubersiege guns in like the last 3 pages of the book - not even.

[Greyall]

His loyalty is unquestionable, he's just not that good at showing it.

 

@Artemid: Agree, and I like Dan Abnett's HH stories precisely because of how human his characters are, without removing their 'awkwardish' traits that come with being vat-grown in the Imperium

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

People often assume I prefer Traitors. I don't prefer anyone - there's only one Legion I'm not keen on, and I avoid them completely - but sometimes you write what's left, because what you'd have chosen first of all has someone else's stickers all over it. I think the most commonly uttered words out of my mouth in meetings are: "I want to write about the Blood Angels."

You do realize that some fans, right now, are probably making detailed lists of which Legions you've written about, in an attempt to figure out which one you're not keen on?

That's easy. Its Space Wolves.

[Aristander]

His loyalty is unquestionable, he's just not that good at showing it.

 

I think it settles the question of whether or not Luther was the true loyalist.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

I think you are wrong. He would love to write about Space Wolves. In fact he does....

[Greyall]

 

His loyalty is unquestionable, he's just not that good at showing it.

 

I think it settles the question of whether or not Luther was the true loyalist.

 

Aye, barring any surprises, the Lion's matter is settled. He's a terrible People's Primarch, but is as loyal a son as the best of them.

 

I was a little surprised, though, that when the time came he wanted no part in regency of the second Imperium and was perfectly in favour of Sanguinius. Well, it shows how respected the Angel is, too.

[Piousservant]

If Primarchs were that vulnerable to bolter shots to the head, then the likes of Angron or Ferrus would have been dead long ago.

I think the problem here is people are taking the words of some in-universe random human at a moment of stress/concern (and who btw isn't a medical professional, let alone an expert on something like Primarch biology or whatever either) as if its an objective fact. Which it kinda obviously isn't.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

His loyalty is unquestionable, he's just not that good at showing it.

 

I think it settles the question of whether or not Luther was the true loyalist.

 

 

According to Fallen Angels, Luther is the farthest thing from loyal as he launched a campaign of "Free Caliban!" Not to much trying to enslave a daemon prince while covering his entire body with hexagrammic wards that repel warp energy.

[Aristander]

I was a little surprised, though, that when the time came he wanted no part in regency of the second Imperium and was perfectly in favour of Sanguinius. Well, it shows how respected the Angel is, too.

 

 

I can't remember if it was the Lion or RG who said it, but how they mentioned how you felt "different" in the presence of the Emperor, and out of all of the Primarchs the only one who had the same effect was Sanguinius, summed it up beautifully.

 

 

 

His loyalty is unquestionable, he's just not that good at showing it.

 

I think it settles the question of whether or not Luther was the true loyalist.

 

According to Fallen Angels, Luther is the farthest thing from loyal as he launched a campaign of "Free Caliban!" Not to much trying to enslave a daemon prince while covering his entire body with hexagrammic wards that repel warp energy.

The joys of such a diverse background universe!