Unremembered Empire....initial review

[Greyall]

That 'linking moment' in Savage Weapons where Curze tells the Lion his reputation with the future generations will be shaky at best due to his innabilities is, to me, one of the best moments of Heresy storytelling.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

If Primarchs were that vulnerable to bolter shots to the head, then the likes of Angron or Ferrus would have been dead long ago.

I think the problem here is people are taking the words of some in-universe random human at a moment of stress/concern (and who btw isn't a medical professional, let alone an expert on something like Primarch biology or whatever either) as if its an objective fact. Which it kinda obviously isn't.

 

 

Actually we're taking the part where Guilliman was shot six times and stabbed in the back and it ended with him killing all ten assailants quite masterfully, while collapsing in a pool of his own blood and having to be carried to the Apocatherion. Where he was then back on his feet and barking orders in a matter of hours as the objective fact. What it comes down to is ten Astartes managing to actually wound a Primarch is apparently a suspension of disbelief while a Primarch taking a sword through the back or a fork to the gut(even if the Priamrch just believes that is a believable scenario) is a-okay.

[Greyall]

It could've gone down either way, Abnett might've written this as Guilliman immediately noticing this wasn't Thiel and awesomely dismantling a whole AL assassination squad in thirty seconds without them knowing what was going on - would've been great, I'm sure. Instead he created a tense moment in which you get to see how Roboute's mind works under pressure.

 

I thought Guilly was awesome, but then I have no qualms about literal plot armour and narrative-dependent power levels.

[Scribe]

I still think the point is not being made well here.

 

However it clearly wont be on either side, Abnett strikes again, for another flame war topic we will have running for years. :p

[Greyall]

I'm sure the matter will be settled once Roboute thunderclaps Curze's face between his powerfists.

 

Oh, and about Curze

 

 

What's the deal with the daemon abducting him right when he was about to deal Vulkan - for a while, at least? Does the scene read as shoehorned?

 

[b1soul]

 

 

I'm

That and I'm rather puzzled why Abnett basically repeated the same plot device with Guilliman being spared by his opponent's gloating. Once was bad enough, but twice? I don't even think the Alpha Legion ambush was even that necessary to the plot even.

 

 

What's worse is that Bobby had a verbal comeback in both instances...

[Verity]

I'm sure the matter will be settled once Roboute thunderclaps Curze's face between his powerfists.

 

Oh, and about Curze

 

 

What's the deal with the daemon abducting him right when he was about to deal Vulkan - for a while, at least? Does the scene read as shoehorned?

 

 

 

Damon, the perpetual who goes alongside John, had bound the Daemon earlier. He released it as Curze was going to do his thing.

 

[Greyall]

 

So the daemon was obeying Damon? Hmm...cool. =p Was it powerful?

 

[Kol Saresk]

 

So the daemon was obeying Damon? Hmm...cool. =p Was it powerful?

 

Not exactly and we don't know. Damon trapped the daemon in something like a genie's bottle. Damon then throws the bottle at Curze. It breaks and the daemon attacks the first thing it sees and drags Curze into the warp. We don't know everything that follows, except that eventually the daemon spits a very bloody(it's his own blood) Curze back into realspace in some snowy mountains some distance from Macragge's capital. Curze begins walking towards the city while leaving the "dead" form of the daemon behind him in the snow.

[Verity]

 

So the daemon was obeying Damon? Hmm...cool. =p Was it powerful?

 

 

Not quite obeying him, as such. More that he got its true name through the basic trickery of it thinking it had his true name...and then I think he stuffed it in a bottle. Someone else can confirm this as my copy of the book is on my home PC, but he then let it out of said bottle, and in its rage, it went after the first target it could and dragged Curze into the warp with him. In the end, we see Curze stagger out of a warp rift, with the daemon dying and choking on it's own daemon blood behind him. (As much as daemons can do that sort of thing, anyway.)

 

[Greyall]

Since my 'Likes' are spent:

 

Holy crap! Supervillain indeed.

 

And I have to get this book.

[WGXH]

 

 

I'm

That and I'm rather puzzled why Abnett basically repeated the same plot device with Guilliman being spared by his opponent's gloating. Once was bad enough, but twice? I don't even think the Alpha Legion ambush was even that necessary to the plot even.

 

 

What's worse is that Bobby had a verbal comeback in both instances...

 

It's a well known fact among the Primarchs that nobody can defeat Guilliman with his back on the ground. Not Kor Phaeron, not Alpha Legion assassins...

 

Angron and Curze are only lucky he was awake. If he was on his back, it's time they had the big sleep.

[Gree]

 

 

If Primarchs were that vulnerable to bolter shots to the head, then the likes of Angron or Ferrus would have been dead long ago.

I think the problem here is people are taking the words of some in-universe random human at a moment of stress/concern (and who btw isn't a medical professional, let alone an expert on something like Primarch biology or whatever either) as if its an objective fact. Which it kinda obviously isn't.

 

Actually we're taking the part where Guilliman was shot six times and stabbed in the back and it ended with him killing all ten assailants quite masterfully, while collapsing in a pool of his own blood and having to be carried to the Apocatherion. Where he was then back on his feet and barking orders in a matter of hours as the objective fact. What it comes down to is ten Astartes managing to actually wound a Primarch is apparently a suspension of disbelief while a Primarch taking a sword through the back or a fork to the gut(even if the Priamrch just believes that is a believable scenario) is a-okay.

 

I would say it's less a Primarch being wounded by Astartes and more a Primarch being almost killed by mere bolters and gladius blades. Guilliman recovered quickly, but that doesn't change the fact that the Alpha Legion almost succeeded if not for some last bit of gloating from their leader.

 

Guilliman stands in stark contrast to Corax in Raven's Flight, who regards bolter rounds as mere annoyances even after he was wounded by a exploding Thunderhawk. At one point you have four squads of Iron Warriors pouring bolter fire into Corax and it doesn't even slow him down.The only thing that even gives him pause is being shot at by lascannons and krak missles. Even wounded like that Corax still slaughters his way through dozens of Iron Warriors (Including Terminators and tanks) and is still strong enough to move about the battlefield to scout the traitor camp by himself.

 

You can of course, chalk it up to inconsistencies in writing and that's the explanation that might fit best, but there are inconsistencies. Or maybe the Alpha Legion were all elite Captains wielding special Anti-Primarch weaponry. That might be the case but it's certainly not indicated or explained in the book. I don't believe Guilliman even notes anything special about their weaponry either.

 

That is at least the issue I took with it. I can't speak for anyone else.

[Wade Garrett]

The final duel between the Emperor and Horus loses a lot of luster when you realize the Warmaster could be killed by eleven Imperial Fists with bolters. Or nine if the bolters had fork bayonets.

[Xin Ceithan]

I liked this one. Especially after the somewhat mediocre Vulkan lives. It tries at least to put together a lot of plot strings from the last books and short stories. Which probably isn`t easy. It works well on it`s own and most of the time handles the "easter egg/ fanservice moments" quite well. Mostly, mind you. Still way above a lot of BL books.

And I kind of LIKED Pappa Smuf in this and KNF...which is saying something.

Every friggin primarch has plot armour in this series. Since we basically know who gets it and when. It`s like a Bond movie. It`s not like they are gong to kill old James, right?-the fun part is HOW he gets out of it and not IF he gets out it.

From this point of view ( and since it`s Dan Abnett) I really enjoyed Curze in this. Who is going to stop him ? He gets offed well past the Battle of Terra. But he gets to cut loose aganinst three primarchs and they have to plot-roadblock-cutscene-railroad him out before something important gets hurt. ...Still fine with me. Since the Lion HAS to return ro Caliban. Papa Smurf HAS to write his big book. And so on.. I say: Enjoy the ride,

But IMO Abnett tried to give everyone in the plot moments where they can shine for the things they ought to....Roboute is tactically / strategically brilliant, still not invincible...the Lion is an awesome fighter and the first Legion is to be feared..but not so much trusted either, The Wolves do not give a crap about the others and challenge them in the middle of a parade. But they stick their necks out to save a mere mortal. The Legion can get close enough to a Primarch to at least try to stop him....

All in all, a nice lynchpin to evolve the setting further just when things where getting a bit stale...

Pity, though,,,Wouldn`t it have been just so ironic if they had kept Vulkan in his box below Ultima Central and so secret that when they put Roboute on ice later on (way later on) no one else remembers this and the rest of the Imperium believes him one of the lost and wandering primarchs. Now, would have been a twist....

[Greyall]

You're speaking as if the scene with Roboute settled the power level for Primarchs for the rest of the Heresy. It's inconsistent. It's probably got a few well-established boundaries inside the BL author meetings, but it's not like they define weightlifting limits or such.

 

And, frankly, I don't want a setting where bullets deflect off flesh or an assassin's knife bends against a Primarch's eye. It's past my superheroics threshold. I'm fine with a punch shattering a tank, but impervious characters are boring.

 

The way you're defending Primarchs should be, the only interesting fights we'd see would be Primarch on Primarch duels, against Greater Daemons or entire Companies of Legionnaires.

[Emperor's Furor]

I'd prefer it if Vulkan was handled by another author than Kyme tbh, I know Salamanders are his domain, but his style doesn't appeal to me, it's not bad but I think it tries to hard and then fails to deliver on both the psychological and action front.

[Gree]

You're speaking as if the scene with Roboute settled the power level for Primarchs for the rest of the Heresy. It's inconsistent. It's probably got a few well-established boundaries inside the BL author meetings, but it's not like they define weightlifting limits or such.

 

And, frankly, I don't want a setting where bullets deflect off flesh or an assassin's knife bends against a Primarch's eye. It's past my superheroics threshold. I'm fine with a punch shattering a tank, but impervious characters are boring.

 

The way you're defending Primarchs should be, the only interesting fights we'd see would be Primarch on Primarch duels, against Greater Daemons or entire Companies of Legionnaires.

 

I'm not sure if this is addressed to me but...

 

I don't believe I made any indications on what was set in stone. In fact I actually point out author interpretation, and what I had personally taken as my own interpretation that people may or may not share. In which I pointed out that Corax lived up to the hype that Primarchs had gotten and Guilliman very much did not.

 

But to answer your question, yes, I personally consider anything less than Primarchs vs Primarchs or fights against entire companies to be rather disgraceful for a Primarch. Anything less than that merely regulates Primarchs to being somewhat more awesome Astartes, rather than the demigods of war they are repeatedly hyped up as.

[Wade Garrett]

Land Raiders are boring, the way their armor protects from anything that isn't heavy weaponry and all that. It breaks my suspension of disbelief. The books would be much more interesting if they could be destroyed by children throwing dirt clods at them

Think how dramatic it would be!

[Kol Saresk]

I liked this one. Especially after the somewhat mediocre Vulkan lives. It tries at least to put together a lot of plot strings from the last books and short stories. Which probably isn`t easy. It works well on it`s own and most of the time handles the "easter egg/ fanservice moments" quite well. Mostly, mind you. Still way above a lot of BL books.

And I kind of LIKED Pappa Smuf in this and KNF...which is saying something.

Every friggin primarch has plot armour in this series. Since we basically know who gets it and when. It`s like a Bond movie. It`s not like they are gong to kill old James, right?-the fun part is HOW he gets out of it and not IF he gets out it.

From this point of view ( and since it`s Dan Abnett) I really enjoyed Curze in this. Who is going to stop him ? He gets offed well past the Battle of Terra. But he gets to cut loose aganinst three primarchs and they have to plot-roadblock-cutscene-railroad him out before something important gets hurt. ...Still fine with me. Since the Lion HAS to return ro Caliban. Papa Smurf HAS to write his big book. And so on.. I say: Enjoy the ride,

But IMO Abnett tried to give everyone in the plot moments where they can shine for the things they ought to....Roboute is tactically / strategically brilliant, still not invincible...the Lion is an awesome fighter and the first Legion is to be feared..but not so much trusted either, The Wolves do not give a crap about the others and challenge them in the middle of a parade. But they stick their necks out to save a mere mortal. The Legion can get close enough to a Primarch to at least try to stop him....

All in all, a nice lynchpin to evolve the setting further just when things where getting a bit stale...

Pity, though,,,Wouldn`t it have been just so ironic if they had kept Vulkan in his box below Ultima Central and so secret that when they put Roboute on ice later on (way later on) no one else remembers this and the rest of the Imperium believes him one of the lost and wandering primarchs. Now, would have been a twist....

Look up "The Unbound Flame".

[Wade Garrett]

Also, I think it's boring how Space Marines can just swat Tau around in melee combat. Because it renders fights where Fire Warriors aren't standing a thousand yards away boring. I think the Black Library authors should start writing scenes where Tau beat the crap out of Astartes with their bare hands. Imagine how much more exciting that would make Marine vs Tau stories.

[Scribe]

Going to use all my likes on Gree...

[Greyall]

@Gree: It was especially directed at Wade.

 

@Wade: Truth of the matter is that, in many accounts, you see tanks and heavy machines get destroyed much more easily than what their codex entries would suggest. In Imperial Armour accounts, Space Marine casualties mount up like crazy to the point that you start wondering if all that separates a Guardsman from a Marines is the armour taking two more shots. The more realistic accounts of 30 or 40K battles show casualties to be much more frequent and both demigods and titans getting bloodied. I like to be reminded Primarchs are demigods, but I'd also not want to forget they're killable.

 

PS: Endless sarcasm won't hide that you're basically throwing a tantrum at a single scene you don't like and ignoring all evidence that Primarch power levels depend on the author and the narrative. ADB said so a few pages back. Like it or not, they do give the authors that kind of freedom.

[Scribe]

Grayall, killable, yes. We are told over and over that Angron is mortal, near death, or dying. However the scenario to put him in that place needs to be suitable to his (and all the other Primarchs) position relative to the setting itself.

 

Due to precedent, that means dropping some skyscrapers on their heads, having them burrow 200 feet through solid earth/stone, then another 200 feet back up, proceeding to halt the downward stomp of a Titan, and walking away to then butcher an Ultramarine Captain.

 

Thats Angron.

 

Its not if a Primarch is killable, its the scenario that puts him there.

[TheLost]

About Curze, doesn't the Lion beat curze to an inch of his life in prince of crows or another short story? And isn't that the reason he is on lions ship in the first place? Also I cant seem to find what page I read it but doesn't Dan abnett mention that the emperor is a perpetual?