Unremembered Empire....initial review

[Veteran Sergeant]

It's easy and cheap to be dismissive saying I just fear change. But there's no substance to that idea and you should be ashamed of yourself for taking such a low road.

 

What I don't like is that the story is being changed without any indication that there's an intelligent design behind the changes. It's all a cash grab. The changes are being made to facilitate more books, not because the changes make any sense. Not because the story we're getting is adding anything to the experience. 

[depthcharge12]

It's easy and cheap to be dismissive saying I just fear change. But there's no substance to that idea and you should be ashamed of yourself for taking such a low road.

 

What I don't like is that the story is being changed without any indication that there's an intelligent design behind the changes. It's all a cash grab. The changes are being made to facilitate more books, not because the changes make any sense. Not because the story we're getting is adding anything to the experience. 

 

 

I want to agree with you in that second paragraph, but something just doesn't sit with me right.

 

 

I am glad we get scars, unremembered empire, FTT, Betrayer, and Legion to name a few, because they actually explain more and add to the backdrop instead of hazy "oh yeah - Isstvaan 5, a couple things happen in the middle we wont explain, THEN POW 7 YEARS AND SEIGE OF TERRA - game over"

 

 

I was pissed when they did eleventy million books on isstvaan 3 and 5, because it was just the same thing over and over, yes a different perspective, but kinda boring after the 3rd time told.

 

 

The new books give the HH a breath of fresh air and add stuff, just filling in the lines and making the ones you know shades of grey.

 

 

Although I am waiting for some of these pinball characters to not arrive in time and have grimdark tragedy and helplessness to avert the envitable

[Veteran Sergeant]

The battles though, what was there? 2? One at the start, and one at the end...no? I dont know, I just got home from the gym and my minds a little fried but I dont really see Betrayer as bolter porn, far from it.

Not in that it was bolter porn, but that literally the entire first part of the novel serves no purpose other than to describe a battle with no grander significance. I don't have it at hand, but we're talking over a dozen chapters to cover relatively minor details. It has more than 200 pages just of filler. I mean, seriously, place Angron's homeworld anywhere other than Ultramar, and suddenly you don't even need the Ultramarines or the battle on the training planet at all. Angron goes to his homeworld to take his revenge, Lorgar channels his hatred and rage to turn him into a daemon prince, Khârn picks up the abandoned Gorechild, and we've literally told the same story, but succinctly and efficiently.

 

The only reason the story even gets shoehorned into Ultramar is to facilitate the corny, and worse, unfulfilling, threeway Primarch battle. And it's a shame, because the more silly battles between Primarchs with contrived exits so they can all fight another day, the less meaning any of those conflicts have. 

 

Think about how powerful the story of Sangunius confronting Horus is. How powerful the story of Fulgrim and Ferrus's duel is. That's because there are consequences. How many times now in the Horus Heresy series have the Primarchs fought epic battles to the death... only for nobody to die because of some silly plot device to break them up? At this point, it's little more than fan service. Primarch battles are the Japanese schoolgirl panty shot of the Horus Heresy, lol.

[Conn Eremon]

It's easy and cheap to be dismissive saying I just fear change. But there's no substance to that idea and you should be ashamed of yourself for taking such a low road.

Just because I am worried this might be directed at me, I'm not being dismissive at all. Merely illustrating that there are those who sit on the opposite end of this spectrum.

[Scribe]

To a specific point, and especially now with that Rob/Lion/Curze three way, I agree Vet. I dont really see a great deal of value in some of the Primarch v Primarch action, and I think your fan service comment is valid.

 

I dont hate it really though, cuz frankly as a Fan, I wish to be Served. :D

 

I just need it done with some restraint. I could have done without Lorgar/Angron vs Rob.

 

I needed Angron vs Russ and that dialogue however. Needed.

[Wade Garrett]

Eh?

 

Know No Fear showed that a sufficiently buffed Chaos Sorceror can slug it out with a Primarch (which we already knew from Luther), Angron and Lorgar had to be rescued from getting Titaned to death by Ember Queen in Betrayer, and there's been much wailing and gnashing of teeth by myself and others in the past several pages because ten Space Marines almost punched Robby G's ticket.

 

"Primarchs must defeat Primarchs" is dead, a stake driven in its heart, and the body set on fire.

[Scribe]

Naaaaaaaaaaaaay. 

 

Problem is, and dramatically so, 2 of your examples are of our Spiritual Liege, written by the same author....

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Naaaaaaaaaaaaay. 

 

Problem is, and dramatically so, 2 of your examples are of our Spiritual Liege, written by the same author....

 

-=Claps his bionic hands together=- You can keep that spiritual liege crap to yourself.

[Brother Captain Achilles]

I think the biggest cause for Disagreement between 40k/30k fans on either side of this "fence" is interpretation of the fluff itself. Now bear with me as this might get playfully rude. (not my intention, just trying to illustrate a difference in perspective)

 

The Common Ground

 

This fluff is the bedrock with which I enjoy Warhammer, and I like that bedrock the way I like it. 

 

This is fair and above all the norm in any science fiction fandom. There has been a vaugue but interesting origin story set up for us all in the pre- HH rulebooks and codecies. WE as the fans have made inferences and mulled at large to the hints and implications made in that old fluff and we drew conclusions that we came to find acceptable if not enjoyable. As the BL has written these books the framework, the bones of that story have remained the same. But, all of the guts, the muscles, the moving parts that animate that bone structure have been left open to interpretation. This is because of the vague and simple way this story was first presented. The BL is taking this as an opportunity to primarily sell books, totally understandable as that is their #1 goal at any one time.

 

This first motive is all the explanation you need for primarch of the week battles and random cameos. Now in most Sci-fi universes such appearances by characters can be hard to explain or fathom. But in Warhammer? I am sorry but the warp is purposely vague and unknowable just for this reason. Sometimes warp travel can take months or years, Other times you pop in and while you as the traveler feel like its been months its been 48 hours and Bam you just skipped the galaxy on a warp wave and showed up in just the nick of time. They could and would be justifiable fine leaving it at that, and most times they do.

 

To Unremembered Empires Credit (which is what we are supposed to be primarily discussing) this is explained in a bit more detail. Its because of a crazy Xeno lighthouse that's borderline heretical to be using.  Also we don't know a damn thing about who made it or for what purpose. Is this still vague? Absolutely. Is it a hell of a lot more that we normally get as an explaination for characters being able to bebop about the Galaxy? Definitely. 

 

So this all sounds good so far, fleshed out universe? check. Characters we want to see all having a chance to brush shoulders and swords with one another? double check. At this point though we begin to see the factions within the fandom become more defined.

 

Group 1 This just isn't what I was expecting: This group built an image in their heads for how things should go down. They did this based on the bones of the old fluff and 20 years or fans coming to conclusions on that fluff. So when the stories started moving in new and unforseen directions. They've been left in the lurch. The BL is and will probably continue to move according to their own compass, and while they are listening and throwing bones of fan-service out to a plethora of fan sub-species. This is upsetting to some, and I understand that, to an extent. But from this we begin to see that second faction define itself

 

Group 2 Hey man, I am just here for the Ride: This group is looking at the HH series at large and at first probably felt very much in line with group 1. But as the series has gone on they've pushed their inner fanboy back just a bit and allowed a more reserved aspect of themselves come forward. Is my Primarch the special snowflake I want him to be? nope. Is anyones primarch that guy? also no. The best consistency we have seen thus far is anyone can be winning and anyone can be losing at a given moment. I feel that group 2 sees this as necessary to a story having peril and tension. You cant make me scared for "my" primarch if I "Know" that he is immune to everything short of one of his brothers. This in group 2's opinion makes for the better story, It has to be more fluid. Less knowable. I prefer a story where things can happen that I genuinely don't expect. If I know what is going to happen in a scene it diminishes it. Unremembered Empire has a perfectly tense scene at the feast when Curze is making his way down from orbit. If you KNEW that Guilliman wasn't going to shoot down those pods I would call you a liar. This was not a man that was willing to take anymore chances. So his reaction is unexpected, and I feel its enjoyable because of that. There are other moments in KNF and other HH books that follow this imperative where the characters need to seem frail at some points and unstoppable at others. You can eiether see that as inconsistent portrayal or you can see it as a literary necessity to engender tension at one moment and awe at another.

 

 

This has turned into a total wall of text, so I will try and sum this up.

 

I get that some of us, here at the BnC really don't like some choices being made by the BL at large. I will simply say guys, you will enjoy it a lot more if you just give the story room to breathe and be a story.

 

Because in the end nothing in the details of these stories is certain, Galactic History in the 30th and 41st Millenniums are nebulous at best and lies at their worst. In the in the end there is only one thing that is for certain.

 

The Galaxy is burning, and we are all at war.

[Conn Eremon]

In broad strokes, that does pretty much define the two main camps. It should be noted however that there is no right or wrong camp. What we have are camps whose mindsets are contrary or aligned to what Black Library is currently providing us. It is also important to note that before this series started it was the other way around.

[Perrin]

Kind of related to the Primarch fights and story decisions, I liked the book as a whole but didn't really like the part with Vulkan dying so much and so easily. The point where his head is exploded by a single sniper rifle bullet, or when he is shredded by dual shuriken pistols, we've seen Primarchs take much more damage than this, it just didn't seem right that it was so easy to kill a Primarch. RG seemed rather fragile when he was attacked by the AL as well.

 

Another thing, how did Curze manage to sneak around so much when it has been stated in various sources, novels and codexes, that the power plant/backpack that powers a marines armour is really loud?! I could probably accept the argument that (despite the front cover) Primarchs are so strong they don't need a power plant for their armour, but then how do the Wolves move so silently when confronting Curze? It actually says they moved through a silent room without making a sound, like wolves on snow. How?!

All in all, good book. I hope Vulkan comes back to life during the HH though, and the whole "Unbound Flame" thing wasn't a hint at him being one of Vulkan's Artefacts himself.

 

[Daddywarcrimes]

Some of the Legions are quiet in their armor, like the Ravenguard and the Sixth.  Some are deliberatedly loud, like the Night Lords and World Eaters.  I'd imagine that the Legions do a great deal of work on customizing their armor to suit their doctrines.  I could see Iron Warriors, Iron Hands, Fists, and Death Guard reinforcing the armor, trading lost speed for improved protection while the White Scars, Blood Angels, Night Lords, and Emperor's Children go the opposite direction, sacrificing a small amount of protection for increased speed.

 

Or it might be poetic license.  ADB made a big deal about how loud the Night Lords were in their warplate while stalking victims, but Abnett has repeatedly made reference to the stealth of the Sixth while they're closing to ambush a foe.

[Stonerhino]

In Prospero Burns, it is stated that the Wolves' use pelts and ground up scales to silence their armor.  Then in Angel Exterminatus we see a Raven Guard with purposely modified armor and jetpack to be silent.  It is also mentioned in Prospero Burns that the Thousand Sons moved silently.

 

I'm sure that the recon squads don't move around with noisy powerpacks either.  So it would not be suprising to find out that power armor has different settings allowing the astartes to go into a low power output mode that is quieter. 

[Kol Saresk]

It goes around iffy. Customization does vary a lot. And the Night Lords in particular would be something of a jack of all trades as they could be silent or loud depending on the ultimate goal. For causing terror, loud. For guerrilla warfare or that one city from Vulkan Lives, being as silent as possible works to the advantage. Lord of Night described Zso Sahaal as having a jump pack that, going by the description, allowed him to just Superman his way around with no exhaust flames and no sound.

 

In the case of Curze, in Dark King, we see Curze having this ability that was very similar to the Shadow(if you ever listened to the old radio show or watched the movie with Alec Baldwin[actually wasn't that bad]), where he could sort of "cloud the minds of men" so he wouldn't be invisible, but rather appear to be indistinct, a shadow that was hard to notice. Similar to the perception filter from Doctor Who, but rather than all attention just sliding off, you remained fully visible to onlookers, just hard to see. That's the impression I got from how it looked like he could just appear from nowhere as well as being right in front of someone, but unable to be hit and everything else. The Shadow's "Clouding" is the closest analogue I can think of honestly.

 

That and since it was night time, everything worked in Curze's favor. Besides, this was a Primarch who learned to hunt and hide in a city. Full of people who could see in near-total darkness. You'd almost have to learn more than a few tricks to survive.

[Wade Garrett]

I've said it before but it bears repeating:

 

For all that ADB mentions stealth in power armor is next to impossible, he also had Talos and First Claw straight up Batman Blood Angel Scouts (Shadow Knight), Full Astartes Blood Angels (Soul Hunter), and various Marines Errant Chapter serfs (Blood Reaver).

 

Unless he was implying that between the Red Thirst and Black Rage, the IX Legion aren't the most observant of fellows.

[A D-B]

I've said it before but it bears repeating:

 

For all that ADB mentions stealth in power armor is next to impossible, he also had Talos and First Claw straight up Batman Blood Angel Scouts (Shadow Knight), Full Astartes Blood Angels (Soul Hunter), and various Marines Errant Chapter serfs (Blood Reaver).

 

Unless he was implying that between the Red Thirst and Black Rage, the IX Legion aren't the most observant of fellows.

 

I'm careful about this kinda thing. In Soul Hunter, the ship was shaking, half-exploding, and under attack. Not a quiet situation. In Shadow Knight, there was no atmosphere in whole sections of the ship (which is why the Blood Angel Scouts have enclosed helms), thus no sound. And in Blood Reaver, they evaded detection (pretty easy, in a castle the size of a city), but they weren't really being all that quiet; they were scrambling around the ventilation ducts grabbing peasants, Alien-style. 

 

 

It comes down to personal interpretation. That's the cold truth. I struggle to imagine most power armour being very quiet. The power pack. The joints moving. The servos and fibre-bundle cable-muscles. Other authors don't see it the same. Some of their reasoning makes sense to me. Stummers exist, in Necro, after all. And some of it doesn't. 

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I've got no problem with it. Easily explained away.

[No Foes Remain]

I keep hearing about Shadow Knight, what is it and where can I get it?

[Kol Saresk]

Query:

 

Could it simply be "background noise"? For example, Astartes would get real used to hearing power armor, possibly even have their audios cancel it out, so it could be possible that they hear, just that they don't realize they are hearing it? The same way I don't really "hear" the train that's a few hundred yards from my house at two in the morning anymore after seven years of living right next to it?

 

I keep hearing about Shadow Knight, what is it and where can I get it?

It's in one of the Hammer and Bolter volumes, number one I believe.

[Wade Garrett]

No worries, boss. Although I'll admit that I (heretical devotee of the Ruinous Powers that I am) find the idea of Blood Angels being so distracted by BLOOD and KILLING and the fact that random hat racks are starting to look like the Arch Traitor Horus that they fail to notice the diesel engine thrumming noises above them more charming than your coldly rational explanations.

[No Foes Remain]

Thanks Kol, and its in physical format. I have myself a xmas present.... to myself.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

Query:

 

Could it simply be "background noise"? For example, Astartes would get real used to hearing power armor, possibly even have their audios cancel it out, so it could be possible that they hear, just that they don't realize they are hearing it? The same way I don't really "hear" the train that's a few hundred yards from my house at two in the morning anymore after seven years of living right next to it?

 

I keep hearing about Shadow Knight, what is it and where can I get it?

It's in one of the Hammer and Bolter volumes, number one I believe.

possible, but the RG MO is quiet, fast strikes. Modified power armor isn't entirely out of the question, and does not require any real stretch of imagination to conjure up

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Query:

 

Could it simply be "background noise"? For example, Astartes would get real used to hearing power armor, possibly even have their audios cancel it out, so it could be possible that they hear, just that they don't realize they are hearing it? The same way I don't really "hear" the train that's a few hundred yards from my house at two in the morning anymore after seven years of living right next to it?

 

 

I keep hearing about Shadow Knight, what is it and where can I get it?

It's in one of the Hammer and Bolter volumes, number one I believe.

 

 

possible, but the RG MO is quiet, fast strikes. Modified power armor isn't entirely out of the question, and does not require any real stretch of imagination to conjure up

 

 

True true. I'm just coming up with a reason as to why Astartes wouldn't really notice power armor. Silent power would definitely be useful against those, like mortals and xenos, who aren't use to hearing the noise. At least, that's how its clicking in my head.

[Wade Garrett]

New idea:

 

In keeping with their Boogeyman theme, Night Lords have access to the Vorhees Unreality Engine, the mysterious (Warp Based?) device that allows serial killers and monsters, no matter how ill suited for stealth they are, to silently appear right behind their victims.

 

Like the T-Rex in Jurassic Park.

[Kol Saresk]

Nah, it's the Krueger Nightmare Field.