Unremembered Empire....initial review

[b1soul]

Curze Almost Killed Dorn.

Curze had Corax run away from him

Curze goes 1-1-1 with the Lion

Curze tortures and kills Vulkan a million times

Curze able to nearly kill the Big Blue Boss alongside the Lion.

 

Maybe Sanguinius, the Khan, or Russ will be the one to make him limp off as there are only 3 more Loyalist primarchs he hasn't put

a hurting on yet.. Curze has an impressive resume nonetheless.

 

I find your argument disingenuous

 

We don't know how Curze ended up on top of Dorn. Given the circumstances, Curze could've flipped out and took Dorn by surprise as Dorn yelled at him. We simply don't know enough about the incident to tell what sort of combat feat (if any) it represents.

 

Curze made Corax run away?

All that scene tells us is that a fresh Curze seemed to be physically stronger than a battle-worn Corax, who had just been slaughtering dozens of Gal Vorbak and dueling Lorgar, another primarch.

Maybe Corax didn't want to fight Curze and Lorgar at once? Lorgar had broken one of Corax's lightning claws and cracked open his chest armour. The rapidly recovering Lorgar would've likely helped Curze. Corax would've been pretty foolhardy to stick around for a potential 2v1. The odds had clearly turned against him by that point.

 

According to ADB himself, the first fight was a draw. I have his quote on another forum if you're actually interested in reading it. The second fight ended with the Lion putting Curze into a catatonic state. Clear victory for the lion.

I suppose you could say Curze beat the Lion in the third fight, but that was more a triggering bombs than demonstrating superiority in personal combat.

 

Heck, I could say Curze was saved by the Lion's vox unit going off early in the book. Seemed a bit silly that the Lion wouldn't turn off his vox during a hunt...but for obvious reasons, Abnett couldn't kill off Curze at the beginning of UE.

 

As for Vulkan, I haven't read Vulkan Lives. All I can say is that in UE, Vulkan's armour and weapon are cobbled together from Guiliiman's private collection and he fights recklessly as he's insane.

[Stonerhino]

Change Curze to Batman and "Knocked out" instead of "Killed" and not many people would be upset.  That's not even taking into account that Curze has visions on top of being a super human.

 

Really we are just seeing how strong a Primarch can be when they are playing to their strengths.  Rather then just overpowering enemies like some weak scout titan.

[A D-B]

Change Curze to Batman and "Knocked out" instead of "Killed" and not many people would be upset.  That's not even taking into account that Curze has visions on top of being a super human.

 

Curze's visions aren't an advantage, though. At least, they're not supposed to be. They're not even a curse with a side order of an advantage. They're a curse. 

[WGXH]

Change Curze to Batman and "Knocked out" instead of "Killed" and not many people would be upset. 

 

Batman? In other novels, I might agree.

 

Aside from the Joker-esque bomb plot, Curze in TUE was closer to Red Hulk at debut. An absolute force of nature that nobody can comprehend or stop.

 

Like many other villain Primarchs, he's a hugely popular, strangely charismatic and an effective villain who can to come up with complex and byzantine plans which offer a great deal of challenge to loyalists, which means that writers love to use him, and readers love to read about him. However, like many of the other traitor primarchs, I get the sense that it's difficult to straddle the line between Curze being magnificent and in his element, and a full blown parody of Joker-meets-Batman.

 

 

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If it was wrote that Lorgar's oratory skills were so powerful, one broadcasted sermon gave galaxy-scale warp storms and chaos worships, people would rightly strain credulity. When A-D-B had Angron/Lorgar fight Guilliman, it wasn't portrayed as a complete curbstomp- while one sided, Robby G had been fighting Lorgar previous to Angron- and matching him- and Angron was having all the warp-heeby-jeebies when he stomped Robby into the mud.

 

Although it was definatly a loss for the boy in blue, it was a far closer one than this one- in his own home, on his own planet, in a fraction of the time and with one of his brothers with him.

 

 

 

I have a new theory. Primarchs leech competance from eachother.

Lion on his own? Fights Curze evenly.

Takes Rob with him? Needs saving from McGuffin.

 

Curze faces Corax? Aw man, he got away.

Curze faces Lion? Give and take.

He faces Lion and Rob? They're going to have to glue them back together- IN HELL.

 

** THEORY NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY**

[FerociousBeast]

 

Change Curze to Batman and "Knocked out" instead of "Killed" and not many people would be upset.  That's not even taking into account that Curze has visions on top of being a super human.

 

Curze's visions aren't an advantage, though. At least, they're not supposed to be. They're not even a curse with a side order of an advantage. They're a curse. 

 

Ha! This is why you should be writing Curze and not Dan Abnett. Or you should at least have some kind of editorial oversight. Because Curze in UE is Nicholas Cage in Next.

 

RE: all the "who's better?" primarch debates, frankly guys, they're pretty silly. Any given primarch can defeat any other given primarch if the writer needs him to. And similarly, as UE shows, if the author needs a primarch to be boosted to ridiculous levels, there's nothing stopping it.

 

So rather than debating which primarch should win in a fight, the REALLY interesting question is which AUTHOR would win in a fight!

[b1soul]

 

Change Curze to Batman and "Knocked out" instead of "Killed" and not many people would be upset.  That's not even taking into account that Curze has visions on top of being a super human.

 

Curze's visions aren't an advantage, though. At least, they're not supposed to be. They're not even a curse with a side order of an advantage. They're a curse. 

 

 

Yeah...maybe not in your books but in Unremembered Empire, those visions are awfully helpful when Curze is escaping from the Invincible Reason, one might even say they were necessary for him to effect a successful escape

[Augustus]

@b1soul

 

I in no one was criticizing the Lion and Curze bouts. Hence why I said 1-1-1... That's one win. One loss. And one draw. So I don't really understand why you are justifying the fights.

 

Curze almost kills Dorn and that's a fact. How or what happened is mostly speculation. But I feel that is neither here nor there.

 

Curze takes on a fresh Guillimen and Lion in "Unremembered Empire" Corax chooses to flee (which goes perfectly with his philosophy of war)

 

The point of my post was that it shows that Curze has an impressive resume against other loyalist Primachs and that I hope maybe it will be Sang or another Primarch to make him limp off with his tail between his legs.

 

I apologize if my post came off as disingenuous (dunno what was meant by that) and if you thought I was being critical or obtuse.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

 

Change Curze to Batman and "Knocked out" instead of "Killed" and not many people would be upset. That's not even taking into account that Curze has visions on top of being a super human.

Curze's visions aren't an advantage, though. At least, they're not supposed to be. They're not even a curse with a side order of an advantage. They're a curse.

 

Yeah...maybe not in your books but in Unremembered Empire, those visions are awfully helpful when Curze is escaping from the Invincible Reason, one might even say they were necessary for him to effect a successful escape

And yet not enough to prevent the Lion or Vulkan from sneaking up on him. It wasn't all advantage all the time, and where it made it seem like it was, it described it more as a curse with an added benefit.

[Kol Saresk]

Or to keep him from spending three hours deciding on an escape plan that would actually work.

[Legatus]

Logically, Curze would not be one of the stronger fighters among the Primarchs. Yeah yeah, "all the Primarchs are equally strong" or whatever. However, some of the Primarchs grew up receiving formal combat training, some grew up fighting powerful creatures or opponents. Curze basically just murdered underhive scum until he was found.

[Conn Eremon]

I don't know. Personally, I wouldn't mind lumping him with Angron. Martially, their skills are great. However, their advantages lie primarily in their attitude and style, fighting styles that are nigh impossible to counter or defend against.

[The Broker]

Logically, Curze would not be one of the stronger fighters among the Primarchs. Yeah yeah, "all the Primarchs are equally strong" or whatever. However, some of the Primarchs grew up receiving formal combat training, some grew up fighting powerful creatures or opponents. Curze basically just murdered underhive scum until he was found.

 

Murdering all those underhive scum seems to have taught him a thing or two though!

[Kol Saresk]

Underhive scum that specialized in murdering people on a planet where even the son of a literal prostitute was a killer before the age of fifteen. And then you have a Primarch eating the dead and absorbing their memories. No possible way that he could ever learn how to kill someone with his own two hands.

By the way, did anyone notice that for all his OPness, Curze got hit by a single Astartes with a sword who couldn't even see him? Imperial Fists. Their marines are so OP.

[Conn Eremon]

Apparently, any time you have the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors working together, :cuss gets real, real fast.

[Kol Saresk]

Apparently, any time you have the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors working together, gets real, real fast.

Yeah, two Marines working with a single sword did less than two Primarchs and ten Space Wolves..... By the way, did anyone notice that while Guilliman killed all of his attackers, Curze only hospitalized the majority, even though he got off lighter than his Loyalist brother? Guilliman is so OP.

[no I'm alpharius]

^{WRT Corax vs Curze, in a later novel, Corax agonised over not staying around to fight the pair, arguing he could have killed at least one but would have died himself.}

 

I didn't mind Curze that much. The unmined wires was exactly in character, and I read the booby trap scene as him trying to lure the pair. Energy spent in avoiding being hit so he could last long enough to put them where he wanted.

 

Vulkan was mental so not even contemplating defending himself.

[Stonerhino]

 

Change Curze to Batman and "Knocked out" instead of "Killed" and not many people would be upset.  That's not even taking into account that Curze has visions on top of being a super human.

 

Curze's visions aren't an advantage, though. At least, they're not supposed to be. They're not even a curse with a side order of an advantage. They're a curse. 

They're really only a curse when they are truely wrong.  In TUE it seems like his visions were more correct then wrong.  Like showing him where bolts are going to impact.  Also we don't see what type of intel his visions were showing him in his fight with his brothers.  I don't mind chalking up a few extra correct visions when in the middle of a Chaos provoked warp storm.

 

Curze's visions might not be a long term advantage, with the whole driving him crazy thing.  But TUE does a good job of showing what those visions could do short term.  At least when they are mostly correct. 

[Captain Idaho]

I'm going to have a reread of the fight scenes because I didn't get the impression Curze was holding his own against 2 Primarchs as described here. Guilliman in particular was able to wound Curze twice with a stabbing thrust and a slice across his face. I got the impression Curze was holding on for his plan to be attempted.

 

As for Corax; we know his side was he was horrified at the sight of Curze, who was his mirror. He even felt he could kill them both though may have died in the process.

 

Curze is bad for sure and fights very differently to other Primarchs. He isn't a particular beatstick though (still a Primarch) but just very dangerous. It's his focus and discipline that lets him down. Guilliman fights clinically and tactician, hence why he killed his would be assassins whereas Curze fought almost like an animal gone half mad. He cared not for his injuries and merely fought towards his greater goal, hence why the Wolves survived.

[A D-B]

 

 

Change Curze to Batman and "Knocked out" instead of "Killed" and not many people would be upset.  That's not even taking into account that Curze has visions on top of being a super human.

 

Curze's visions aren't an advantage, though. At least, they're not supposed to be. They're not even a curse with a side order of an advantage. They're a curse. 

They're really only a curse when they are truely wrong.  In TUE it seems like his visions were more correct then wrong.  Like showing him where bolts are going to impact.  Also we don't see what type of intel his visions were showing him in his fight with his brothers.  I don't mind chalking up a few extra correct visions when in the middle of a Chaos provoked warp storm.

 

Curze's visions might not be a long term advantage, with the whole driving him crazy thing.  But TUE does a good job of showing what those visions could do short term.  At least when they are mostly correct. 

 

Perhaps foolishly, I was referring to the visions in all the published material pre-TUE. They're very different now, true.

[pingo]

I suppose on Macragge Curze's 'gift' only really served to better allow him to demonstrate how broken he is and helped him be seen even more ignobly by his brothers. Curze can use his visions to further his goals, but when those goals are self-destructive and hateful, is his ability really a boon to him?

 

Even if it is an advantage in combat, which it seems to be, what about outside of combat? Constantly seeing countless possibilities a short distance into the future must drive you insane. It seems to have done for Curze.

 

At least, that's how I see it.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah that's the thing, at one point, Curze says that he is able to tell which visions are false and which are true. But at the same time, we see more than a few of his "true" visions, be proven false. For example, he thought he was going to run into a group of mortals when he was going back into the Invincible Reason. Instead he ran into a squad of Dark Angels from the Stormwing. He was struck quite a few times by Polux, who couldn't even see Curze, meaning that quite a few times, his visions did not help him dodge those blows. He got struck by Guilliman, his visions did not help him there. He didn't even foresee Vulkan until the Salamander was slamming him through a window like Jason Vorhees with the Rage Virus.

 

For all the "advantages" the visions gave him, we see him take quite a bit of damage as well as those visions being proven wrong.

[Legatus]

In previous lore I more got the impression that Curze's visions were (very selectively) showing horrible things, but very vaguely, that might happen at some unspecified point in the future. Things like "that sergeant whose honesty you appreciated is lying on the floor, his guts ripped out, the assailant in heavy combat armour towering on top of him", without any kind of indication on when that might happen (within the next few days, or in a hundred years), or who the attacker might be. Or any context as to why. Distraughtful but very vague. Not super immediate and useful things like "a hidden sniper is about to take a shot, duck!".

[Kol Saresk]

All of his visions relate to negativity. They still do. Never once does he get a happy vision. Every vision he received was a vision that led towards death and destruction in some shape or form. That sniper? Curze would get a vision of where that sniper was so he could sneak up and kill him. Rigging the entire chapel to blow up with enough force to kill Primarchs? Here's how you do it in a way that you can escape and proceed to kill others. Which reminds me, Curze didn't foresee Guilliman and the Lion escaping that little goodbye present. That would have been a happy vision.

[helterskelter]

Curze makes me smile. I absolutely powered through the book knowing he was in it regardless of who had written the book. Its fun. People take things way to seriously sometimes I notice. If the books cant inspire a film in your mind maybe dont read?

I find curze's appearance and his killing spree Its like the body count from dolph lundgrun's punisher. Ridiculous yet fun.

What i found most dissapointing is i spent 20 quid on a both with a grammatical error in it. Thankyou once more BL for your unscrupulous attention to detail.

Long story short I enjoyed the book. As I enjoy anything that involves NL or some fruitcake shouting I am alpharius. Dissapointed sevatar didnt steal the Invincible reason as most of the legionnaries are on macragge. And some were curbstomped by Curze.

[Legatus]

 

 

That sniper? Curze would get a vision of where that sniper was so he could sneak up and kill him.

 

His visions actually showing him how to prevent the bad things to come? That is definitely new. They were never quite as useful in previous sources.