Unremembered Empire....initial review

[Scribe]

I like the Sensei Perpetuals though....

[Kais Klip]

I'll admit I preferred it when there was one of them, it added a bit of a quirky spice to the galaxy, not so with a galactic conglomerate of immortal poker buddies, all on first name basis and speed dial.

 

It's why we have 20 Primarchs and not 200.

[Lexington]

Honestly, am I the only one who would prefer to see the Cabal and their Perpetuals cut clean out of the Heresy?

Nope.

 

I'm not a fan of the Heresy books overall, both conceptually and in their execution, but the Cabal's a particularly ugly aspect of them. It's a combination of some of the series' worst tendencies - the need to tie every friggin' 40K event and faction to the Heresy, the bizarre 'everyone knew the Heresy was coming' subplot, the constant flashbacks and references to present-day history, despite the fact that the modern configuration of the world shouldn't even be remembered this far on, etc. The Cabal and it's plots just make 30K - and 40K, by extension - feel so damn small, which is the antithesis of what the setting was made for.

[Captain Idaho]

I like the depth the Perpetuals add to 40K history.

 

*shrugs*

[depthcharge12]

What if the World Eaters had listened to the Cabal?

 

 

BWAHAHAHA

 

 

sorry just humorous speculation.

 

 

 

Slau Da: "Angron. We must destroy all of humanity to prevent this-"

 

Angron: "Kill everyone you say......hmm ok well you twisted my arm, i'll do it!"

[Scyld Fireblade]

 

But then we couldn't have Supernatural. Wait, that's a tv show not a book.

A little over half way for me. Great so far, lots of stuff going on, enjoyable read.

 

However. I hate the wolves. I hate what Abnett has turned them into. I hate their 'role' and I hate that this executioners crap is something we have to likely endure for the rest of the series.

 

Hate it.

Actually, if you look at it, Abnett has literally turned it into a joke. When we first see it, it's with the knowledge of Prospero. And at one point, the point is actually made to point out that the Wolves had never done a true sanction before Prospero.

 

Also, A D-B pretty much put the last nail into the coffin and confirmed the executioner thing back in Betrayer. So technically, you'd have to criticize A D-B as much as Abnett for the executioner thing.

 

Personally, I'm getting a kick out of it. It's giving the Wolves this sort of blind obedience aspect that is covered with arrogance. How did the quote go?

 

"Our duty is what our duty has always been - to do what others will not. To do the unthinkable, if the unthinkable must be thought."

 

In a way, it's reminiscent of what we see as Curze's earlier mentality. Although where Curze actually did what he thought must be done, the Wolves are only willing, but will not do until ordered to do so. But the Wolves are also willing to feed rumors that they had done it before, to the extent of Prospero, when they really haven't carried out a sanction before.

 

And in a way, it creates an interesting aspect. It was kind of thrown in with Khârn's quote from Betrayer, but it's something that keeps being expanded upon. There are truly no Wolves on Fenris. Only dogs. I don't mean that as an insult to anyone's pride or even the Legion(especially since the Wolves themselves say as much). But if you think about it, they do not act as Wolves. True, they fight in packs, but so do dogs, lions and hyenas. But there is that true loyalty. It's somethings dogs have and wolves rarely have. Usually it has to be a wolf-hybrid. And in a way, it makes them very, very, very dangerous.

 

Look at the attitude. They're willing to go so far as to be willing to chance killing a Primarch, even if it means they will die. It's a true loyalty tied in with a will to achieve the unachievable. And that will, that drive, to succeed, makes them very dangerous indeed.

 

Personally I think the executioners theme is a good idea that has been poorly written. I loved A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, but I hated Betrayer. 

 

No one may outright say it, but there are multiple hints that Russ and his sons are responsible for destroying at least one if not both of the missing legions.  The following is a spoiler from Forge World's Horus Heresy Book II: Massacre.  There is a timeline that list the major events from the Razing of Monarchia to the Dropsite Massacre.  For each event the legions involved are listed.  Two of these events are listed as "<ALL DATA REDACTED>" and the only legion listed for both of those events is the Space Wolves.  Both occur after Monarchia but before Alpharius even takes command of the XXth Legion.

 

For further mystery, apparently the Emperor kept the VIth, XVIIIth, and XXth Legions secluded from the others early on.

 

[Kol Saresk]

Remember, both of those redacted events come after Lorgar's pilgrimage. By Lorgar's pilgrimage, the Lost Legions are already Lost. Meaning those redacted events do not have anything to do with the Lost Legions.

 

Source is The First Heretic.

[A D-B]

Remember, both of those redacted events come after Lorgar's pilgrimage. By Lorgar's pilgrimage, the Lost Legions are already Lost. Meaning those redacted events do not have anything to do with the Lost Legions.

 

Source is The First Heretic.

 

And 40K lore. 

 

But yeah, I'm used to posters with Space Wolf avatars shooting the messenger on that score. It's a bit of a joke at HH meetings, now.

[Karthak]

 

Remember, both of those redacted events come after Lorgar's pilgrimage. By Lorgar's pilgrimage, the Lost Legions are already Lost. Meaning those redacted events do not have anything to do with the Lost Legions.

 

Source is The First Heretic.

 

And 40K lore. 

 

But yeah, I'm used to posters with Space Wolf avatars shooting the messenger on that score. It's a bit of a joke at HH meetings, now.

Honestly, this is something that I find really irritating. The Wolves are my favorite chapter (I loved the Ragnar series as a kid), but Vlka Fenryka fans who lose their :cuss as soon as the Wolves are implied not to be absolutely perfect fill me with unease and a reluctance to associate with the fandom.

[Perrin]

Remember, both of those redacted events come after Lorgar's pilgrimage. By Lorgar's pilgrimage, the Lost Legions are already Lost. Meaning those redacted events do not have anything to do with the Lost Legions.

 

Source is The First Heretic.

 

I'm sure the latest BL stance is that the Lost Legions weren't lost until all Primarchs were found, including Alpharius.

 

Unless I've missed something?

[A D-B]

 

 

Remember, both of those redacted events come after Lorgar's pilgrimage. By Lorgar's pilgrimage, the Lost Legions are already Lost. Meaning those redacted events do not have anything to do with the Lost Legions.

 

Source is The First Heretic.

 

And 40K lore. 

 

But yeah, I'm used to posters with Space Wolf avatars shooting the messenger on that score. It's a bit of a joke at HH meetings, now.

Honestly, this is something that I find really irritating. The Wolves are my favorite chapter (I loved the Ragnar series as a kid), but Vlka Fenryka fans who lose their :cuss as soon as the Wolves are implied not to be absolutely perfect fill me with unease and a reluctance to associate with the fandom.

 

It's irritating but I don't blame them, exactly. They were directly told "their" Legion was better than the other Legions - the most dangerous and savage - and has the capacity and right to destroy other Legions. Along with several heavy hints that they were personally responsible for the most bombastic (and unrealistic...) destruction of one of 40K's largest abiding mysteries - the Lost Legions.

 

Now, admittedly, the problem is that it's not true, and anyone who said so was going to get it in the neck, because the Wolves have the hugest fandom by far. So I can absolutely understand why particularly zealous/biased fans resist that or consider it an unfair retcon. It's just an effect of the fandom's size, really. Because there are so many Space Wolf fans, their praise and criticism echoes the loudest. That said, it's an incredibly tiny minority that have complained in this way. Around the authors' table we might lament it's been taken as gospel, but there are reasons for it - and dialling back an idea that entrenched takes time.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Remember, both of those redacted events come after Lorgar's pilgrimage. By Lorgar's pilgrimage, the Lost Legions are already Lost. Meaning those redacted events do not have anything to do with the Lost Legions.

 

Source is The First Heretic.

I'm sure the latest BL stance is that the Lost Legions weren't lost until all Primarchs were found, including Alpharius.

 

Unless I've missed something?

And also according to Laurie Goulding, after it was pointed out, the date Alpharius was found is unknown. The date listed in Massacre is the date Alpharius took command of his Legion. According to Legion, there were a few decades between Alpharius being officially found and when he took command of his Legion. So if we take AD-B agreeing with my comment, Laurie Goulding's assent of my speculation and what is currently written in the lore, there is plenty of tine for Alpharius to be "found", the Lost Legions be Lost and then First Heretic to happen as all of the Primarchs would have been found before the Pilgrimage.

[Perrin]

 

 

 

Remember, both of those redacted events come after Lorgar's pilgrimage. By Lorgar's pilgrimage, the Lost Legions are already Lost. Meaning those redacted events do not have anything to do with the Lost Legions.

 

Source is The First Heretic.

I'm sure the latest BL stance is that the Lost Legions weren't lost until all Primarchs were found, including Alpharius.

 

Unless I've missed something?

And also according to Laurie Goulding, after it was pointed out, the date Alpharius was found is unknown. The date listed in Massacre is the date Alpharius took command of his Legion. According to Legion, there were a few decades between Alpharius being officially found and when he took command of his Legion. So if we take AD-B agreeing with my comment, Laurie Goulding's assent of my speculation and what is currently written in the lore, there is plenty of tine for Alpharius to be "found", the Lost Legions be Lost and then First Heretic to happen as all of the Primarchs would have been found before the Pilgrimage.

 

What part of Legion would that be? Nothing springs into my memory and as it was a relatively early HH novel it would have been written without the current dates and Primarch order that we do currently have, so it is likely to have discrepancies like TFH did, because of changes made to the lore afterwards. Isn't the discrepancy being edited out of TFH in future printings?

[Captain Idaho]

Any fan who condems an author for not allowing their faction to be unstoppable and all conquering is essentially asking for a book so shallow it won't be worth reading. If such a novel comes to pass they should have their eyes plucked from their skulls so they can never read and comment then influence a Heresy or 40K novel again!

 

(Meant with tongue in cheek friends!)

[Conn Eremon]

While I agree that being the super special snowflake of kill everyone is bad, I honestly did not see the whole Executioner thing as such. It was just some extra flavor to give background on why it was the Wolves that were sent. It didn't make them better than anyone. That title still fell to the Sons of Horus, with the Ultramarines and Emperor's Children being closer seconds.

 

It didn't take away from the mystique of the Lost Legions, because all it let us know was that a Legion that had been present since the beginning might have been involved in some way. We didn't need the confirmation that it went down bloody, nobody honestly thought it was a peaceful affair. So it didn't shed light on things better left unsaid. It said nothing.

 

It just irritates me that because there were immature fans who leaped on the opportunity to make it seem all super special friendship power, the powers that be needed to adjust fluff just to take away their ammunition. That's infuriating, because its an outright statement that these fans have more of an impact on the fluff than any other fan. And these fans are not restricted to just the Space Wolves. There's recent posts on this forum right now applying the same type of thing to the Space Ninjas of the Raven Clan and the super-awesome invisible Lucius-killer who shoots Primarchs like it ain't no thang.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Remember, both of those redacted events come after Lorgar's pilgrimage. By Lorgar's pilgrimage, the Lost Legions are already Lost. Meaning those redacted events do not have anything to do with the Lost Legions.

 

Source is The First Heretic.

I'm sure the latest BL stance is that the Lost Legions weren't lost until all Primarchs were found, including Alpharius.

 

Unless I've missed something?

And also according to Laurie Goulding, after it was pointed out, the date Alpharius was found is unknown. The date listed in Massacre is the date Alpharius took command of his Legion. According to Legion, there were a few decades between Alpharius being officially found and when he took command of his Legion. So if we take AD-B agreeing with my comment, Laurie Goulding's assent of my speculation and what is currently written in the lore, there is plenty of tine for Alpharius to be "found", the Lost Legions be Lost and then First Heretic to happen as all of the Primarchs would have been found before the Pilgrimage.

What part of Legion would that be? Nothing springs into my memory and as it was a relatively early HH novel it would have been written without the current dates and Primarch order that we do currently have, so it is likely to have discrepancies like TFH did, because of changes made to the lore afterwards. Isn't the discrepancy being edited out of TFH in future printings?

Since Laurie Goulding(one of the Editors of BL) wa the one who brought up the bit from Legion after it was pointed out that Alpharius has three different dates(the date Horus found him, the date Horus introduce him to the Imperium and the date he took command of his Legion[with the date he took command being the one mentioned in Massacre]), and the only way TFH could be edited would be either if they changed when pilgrimage happened or cut out a major part of a Chapter, Laurie Goulding said the retcon will most likely not happen then. SO, I'm going with no retcon since retcons lead to more paperwork and since AD-B pretty much agreed the Redacted Dates have nothing to do with the Lost Legions, I'm going to go out on a hunch and say Alpharius was introduced to the Imperium before the Pilgrimage, which agrees with TFH meaning, the Redacted Dates have nothing to do with the Lost Legions.

 

Granted, all of this speculation is based on the actions of an author, the posts of an editor and what I have personally read in the books. So don't take it as Holy Grail-level fact.

[Wade Garrett]

Cormac, this isn't really a new thing that started with "Prospero Burns", is it?

 

You can still find "The Emperor made the Night Lords to be the only Legion that had enough HARD MEN to make the HARD DECISIONS needed to pacify the Imperium" argued courtesy of Sahaal's ranting in "Lord of the Night", never mind that in the book he's called out as viewing the past through rose colored eye lenses.

[A D-B]

While I agree that being the super special snowflake of kill everyone is bad, I honestly did not see the whole Executioner thing as such. It was just some extra flavor to give background on why it was the Wolves that were sent. It didn't make them better than anyone. That title still fell to the Sons of Horus, with the Ultramarines and Emperor's Children being closer seconds.

 

It didn't take away from the mystique of the Lost Legions, because all it let us know was that a Legion that had been present since the beginning might have been involved in some way. We didn't need the confirmation that it went down bloody, nobody honestly thought it was a peaceful affair. So it didn't shed light on things better left unsaid. It said nothing.

 

It just irritates me that because there were immature fans who leaped on the opportunity to make it seem all super special friendship power, the powers that be needed to adjust fluff just to take away their ammunition. That's infuriating, because its an outright statement that these fans have more of an impact on the fluff than any other fan. And these fans are not restricted to just the Space Wolves. There's recent posts on this forum right now applying the same type of thing to the Space Ninjas of the Raven Clan and the super-awesome invisible Lucius-killer who shoots Primarchs like it ain't no thang.

 

That's not quite how it happened. Remember, I'm the only one of the HH team that even reads the forums regularly, let alone replies to them (and that's mostly because I play 40K and can't get enough shop talk). The complaining Space Wolf fans had no impact on the background in the sense you're suggesting (especially as most of the issue arose when later sources put the initial "executioner" thing in more realistic contrast. It was the core concept itself that needed reining in - not fan reaction - because it couldn't possibly have been true in the pretty bombastic terms used (mostly in the PB trailer).

 

I have no personal grudge against the "executioner" idea (which is why I have several characters in Betrayer confirming the possibility, while introducing doubt as to who mandated it). But it did need context, and that had much more to do with their role and presentation in the background than through any fan reaction. I'd never try to redact another author's work, but even some of us on the team were starting to get confused as to what the Wolves were becoming.

 

Maybe you're right and it'll happen with the Raven Guard, too. I have no idea. I don't pretend my vision is the right one, but similarly I tend to err on the side of my novels' protagonist Legions mostly showing their flaws (and often losing, deadlocking, barely winning, or running away from being out of their element) rather than showing them at their best and strongest. Other authors prefer to show their Legions' shining moments. It's a little give and take like that. I'd argue that there's nowhere near the level of Raven Guard superiority as there is of the Wolves in the series. 

 

The problem only arises when certain fans take that as an insult or a vendetta. 

[Conn Eremon]

Wade :No, but I don't think the rabid NL fans were so rabid as to have their NL fluff changed to prevent them from being so rabid.

 

That is the part that irritates. Those fans do, too, but they are an ever-present reality of any fandom, and are easily ignored as irrelevant. But they are made relevant when they get the fluff changed, even if it's not in their favor.

 

Edit:

A D-B: I seem to remember you talking about how these fans were a topic of discussion among the authors at these meetings, but I can be the first to admit that I have a less than stellar memory.

 

It certainly sounded to me like the response to reign it in was as a reaction to the fans, an unnecessary one in my opinion, but I won't argue that point as I'm not part of the team making these decisions and you are.

 

As for the Raven Guard, I am not saying anything about the Legion itself (though I do have strong negative opinions about their portrayal under Gav Thorpe), I was referring to the recent posts of rabid fandom about Nykona in comparison to those of the Executioners.

[Kol Saresk]

Exactly. The Executioner idea in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. Maybe the wolves are the emperors personal dogs. They certainly have the loyal to a fault thing down.

 

The problem comes from taking in-universe speculation and hearsay and then presenting it as a fact.

 

It's one thing to have an opinion. Its another to preach that opinion as fact, or the "right" opinion.

[Legatus]

I have now had a chance to read 'Unremembered Empire', my third Horus Heresy novel, and I must say it went down really well. I am not sure whether it was my state of mind at the time, or whether it was because I already knew the beats it would strikem but overall I enjoyed this book more than 'Know No Fear' (which I really didn't like at all) and 'Betrayer' (which was decent, but with too many unfortunate new concepts). A problem for me still remains that really every single event described in this book is a retcon, but taken just as part of the "Horus Heresy Series Continuity" it was a really entertaining story. I guess the events did not themselves invalidate older material, like 'KNF' and 'Betrayer' did. It merely went with the premise that the Ultramarines were more involved in the Heresy and based the events on that. (Though I think it changed the location of the Ultramarines' Fortress Monastery from the "inhospitable" and "impenetrable" mountain regions of Macragge to "right next to the Capital City".) And I cringed a bit every time I had to read the phrase "the five hundred worlds of Ultramar".

 

I liked the overall setting and premise (the capital of a galactic empire, and the effort to ensure a future for the Imperium), the "crisis" that was thrown in (Curze rampaging through the city) as well as the side intrigues with the Perpetuals and the World Bearer. I also liked the bits with the Space Wolves. The "executioners" shtick is still stupid, but they had a cool scene saving Guilliman's mum. I also liked their initial introduction, describing their journey to Macragge. I generally like Space Wolves. It is just a shame Abnett went a bit over the top with his reinvention in 'Prospero Burns'.

 

I think the bigest "issue" I had was in the assassination attempt on Guiliman. If that had been the only fight scene of a Primarch against other mortals in this book, then it would have been fine. But that scene is then too harshly contrasted by Curze cuting a bloody path through the fortress of the Ultramarines (and through two pursuing Legions, no less), and even culminates in a confrontation against a squad of Space Wolves that directly mirrors Guilliman's previous struggle. If that contrast would not be here, I would probably not mind Guilliman being hospitalised by ten Space Marine assassins. And if that contrast would not be here, I don't think that many people would have minded Curze's killing spree, which I actually mostly enjoyed. It was only that direct comparison with Guilliman's earlier efforts that maybe diminished my enjoyment.

 

The description of Guilliman is a very sympathetic one. Perhaps the most sympatheric of any of the Primarchs (though I have not read that much of the other books). Though it seems he or his Legion will never be permitted to do anything remotely impressive.

 

Curze is very different from how the older sources made him out to be. Not that they ever described his personality in great detail, they simply did not suggest that he would ever have taken this amount of pleasure in massacring others. But as a monstrous threat for this story he worked very well.

[Kol Saresk]

Well the difference between Guilliman being ambushed by a Legion who excelled at doing the unexpected and Curze being a Primarch who excelled at terror tactics ambushing patrols of ten or so is lretty much that different. But then when they're in a similar situation, Guilliman kills all ten of his assailants. Curze only killed like three of the Wolves an hospitalized the rest, IIRC? So there is a big contrast between being in your element and being out of your element. And I don't think Guilliman has been shown yet in his element while this is the first time we see Curze in his.

[Captain Idaho]

Not to mention Guilliman was facing a firing squad at extreme close range unarmed and in ceremonial armour, whilst being unaware he was due to be attacked. You have to bear in mind that context. Notice the remarks from the Space Wolves, who regarded it as an impressive feat from Guilliman.

 

The scene went into detail to describe just how Guilliman dealt with the situation. This was done deliberately to emphasise just how difficult his situation was.

[Legatus]

They were not the same situation. But superficially, both Primarchs end up in a room, fighting a ten man squad of Marines. The book even makes the point to compare the second incident directly with the first one. and the first incident ends with Guilliman being hospitalised, while the second incident ends with Curze simply being amused, until another Primarch has to show up to stop him. That is ultimately what most people will take away from that situation. Guilliman in a room with ten Marines, Curze in a room with ten Marines.

The different outcomes can be justified and explained. But then they have to be justified in the first place, because they are so different.

[marshal seanisi]

The depiction of the various characters (Primarchs and others) and the disparity between how they are perceived between the different authors has always been a point of contention with me. While I really take the HH series for what it is, enjoyable reading for me. I try to keep myself from being overly critical with the various books. Some of the books are better than others, and some leave me shaking my head; Gav Thorpe has been a disappointment for me. But really the only thing that has struck a chord with me over and over is the variance in the Characters between the different authors. The Lion and Curze have had back and forth battles throughout the series, both getting the better of each other depending on the situation. Gulliman being bested by Kor Phaeron, then holding his own against Lorgar and Angron, only to be almost killed by a single squad of Alpha legion. Curze being beaten like a child by Vulkan in Vulkan lives then going on an invincible rampage in Unremembered Empire. The list goes on and on but it just goes to the point that there is a lack of continuity between the authors on character development. Again, I have read and enjoyed the entire series for the most part, and while I look to this series as pure entertainment, this is the one area I would like the authors to be on the same page with.