Unremembered Empire....initial review

[Kol Saresk]

They were not the same situation. But superficially, both Primarchs end up in a room, fighting a ten man squad of Marines. The book even makes the point to compare the second incident directly with the first one. and the first incident ends with Guilliman being hospitalised, while the second incident ends with Curze simply being amused, until another Primarch has to show up to stop him. That is ultimately what most people will take away from that situation. Guilliman in a room with ten Marines, Curze in a room with ten Marines.

The different outcomes can be justified and explained. But then they have to be justified in the first place, because they are so different.

That's why I said they were similar. ;)

 

Although to be pedantic, Curze didn't exactly walk away unscathed from his roundabout either. Better condition, but not unscathed.

[Scribe]

He did walk away though, to then be assaulted by Vulkan, further shot/blown up, SWALLOWED BY A DAEMON, and then rip his way out of the warp/alternate dimension, to shrug it off and stalk back to town.

[Wade Garrett]

All that's missing is him carving a Nostromon sonnet about the joys of flaying people on Vulkan's heart.

:(

[Scribe]

Yeah, I may need to step away from the keyboard and do some more work on my Night Lords. I want a consistent story, across the whole scope and breadth of the series. Rob's portrayal is simply not in line with Curze, its like orders of magnitude in difference. Curze is a force of nature. Rob is logistics. Just.not.working.

[Legatus]

By the end of the book, Curze was pretty beaten up. I didn't mind his scenes that much. Only how he was able to bamf all over the fortress sowing chaos while simultaneously finding the time to acquire 65 (?) grenades from his victims, place them all around the ceremonial hall, and rig them all to be triggered at once. That was a bit... what? That must have been like a good 60 minutes of him tinkering around that area without any of the search parties finding him.

 

But if the book has such a long scene of one Primarch being a badass, maybe don't have another Primarch being beaten up by ten Marines?

[Scribe]

Yeah thats the thing. I dont care if Curze is a beast, because Lorgar can stop himself from melting in a Titans plasma cannon, and Angron can military press said titan trying to stomp on them.

 

Primarchs should be at another level.

 

Rob, is shot up by 10 bog standard marines, and has to be carried back to his hospital bed like a geriatric. Abnett more than any other author seems to take liberty with the various power thresholds of Primarch -> Marine -> Genetically Modified Human -> Human, and I simply dont like it.

 

And full disclosure, I'll be honest, I carry a grudge from Prospero Burns, that will likely only go away once the series completes.

[Kol Saresk]

By the end of the book, Curze was pretty beaten up. I didn't mind his scenes that much. Only how he was able to bamf all over the fortress sowing chaos while simultaneously finding the time to acquire 65 (?) grenades from his victims, place them all around the ceremonial hall, and rig them all to be triggered at once. That was a bit... what? That must have been like a good 60 minutes of him tinkering around that area without any of the search parties finding him.

 

But if the book has such a long scene of one Primarch being a badass, maybe don't have another Primarch being beaten up by ten Marines?

It would sort of depend. There's a Batman game where you can run around, place three explosive charges, and take three guys out, jump from gargoyle to gargoyle, place three more explosive charges and it all take under ten minutes to take out something like ten guys. For a Primarch that's able to move fast enough to commit one thousand blows faster than the eye can blink, doesn't really seem that difficult to accomplish in my opinion. Especially since it can very easily be explained as him doing it while on the move rather than gathering supplies and then committing the sabotage. Which is why I think Abnett included the visions. Curze would basically have been following a direct step-by-step guide for setting up a big bang ambush while killing the patrols that were after him.

 

But honestly, when ten marines are using bolt rounds made for piercing Mk IV plate armor and you're pretty much being caught with your pants down versus having your pants up and then fighting ten astartes with blades, well as you pointed out, they are not the same situation. The only they'd be similar is because "Ambush+Ten Astartes+Primarch", but ultimately its apples and oranges. Both are fruit, but there are notable differences. Which for some reason always get glossed over in the justification department.....

[Wade Garrett]

Don't remind me how the visions are handled now....with no explanation whatsoever we've gone from "ARRGH I SEE HORRIBLE THINGS! THE PAIN! THE AGONY! I MUST MUTILATE MYSELF AND OTHERS TO LET IT OUT OF MY SKULL!" to honest to goodness Jedi Precognition where Curze knows every move his enemies will make before they do.

[Kol Saresk]

Don't remind me how the visions are handled now....with no explanation whatsoever we've gone from "ARRGH I SEE HORRIBLE THINGS! THE PAIN! THE AGONY! I MUST MUTILATE MYSELF AND OTHERS TO LET IT OUT OF MY SKULL!" to honest to goodness Jedi Precognition where Curze knows every move his enemies will make before they do.

And yet he still got it wrong....... Fancy that. It's almost like his visions weren't perfect.

[Legatus]

Yeah, not a fan of the super useful combat visions either. Or shadow teleporting all over the place, for that matter. But at least that I could kiiiiind of see as a result of advanced chaos enhancements.

[Kol Saresk]

Shadow teleporting? :huh:

[Kol Saresk]

To be honest, the exact image I got of Curze's "Only the Shadow Knows" was pretty much exactly like the way the Shadow moved in the movie by the same name.

 

 

EDIT: For those who can't see it, just copy the link and remove the spaces. http://www. youtube.com/watch?v=AJX60CSED1s

[Captain Idaho]

Legatus; I'd like to point out, , as you want to do, if we compare the 2 Primarch fights with 10 Marines in a small room and say they are directly comparable, then that means you need to compare the end result. Guilliman was hospitalised but killed all 10 of his assailants, unarmed and taken completely unawares. Curze killed one of his attackers, wasn't ambushed and was fully armed and armoured, but got away able to continue on fighting.

 

That to me seems obvious Guilliman acquitted himself quite well.

 

Curze did have the ability to destroy vehicles and Space Marines with impunity, though struggled to kill an Imperial Fist Captain just because he was guided by another, so I do agree the plot did seesaw wildly.

[Daddywarcrimes]

In his defense, Curze would have finished off all ten of legionnaires from the VIth, except that someone who shall remain nameless did intervene in the fight on their behalf.

[Kol Saresk]

 

In his defense, Curze would have finished off all ten of legionnaires from the VIth, except that someone who shall remain nameless did intervene in the fight on their behalf.

Speaking as a Night Lord fanatic, debatable.

[Conn Eremon]

On the Wolves' behalf? No, he was done with them by then.

 

Nah, it was the awesome mum of awesome that Jason Voorhees rescued.

 

The best damn thing he's ever done, since becoming the villain if a specific weekday.

[Legatus]

 

Guilliman was hospitalised but killed all 10 of his assailants

 

IIRC he was beaten and at the mercy of the last assassin. He only survived because the foe who had the knife to his throat wasted time gloating, which allowed Guiliman to take him out and escape with his life. Again.

 

 

(Sad thing is, that's probably how his final fight with Fulgrim is going to play out as well...)

[Wade Garrett]

Hmmm...Konrad has visions, Corax can turn invisible, and Vulkan is unkillable.

 

Perhaps the special power the Emperor wove into the XIII's genes is the ability to make his enemies dramatically monologue at oppurtune moments.

:p

[b1soul]

 

 

In his defense, Curze would have finished off all ten of legionnaires from the VIth, except that someone who shall remain nameless did intervene in the fight on their behalf.

Speaking as a Night Lord fanatic, debatable.

 

...so you're saying that in the same situation (ambushed by 10 marines), Curze would've done no better than Robbie

[Kol Saresk]

Hmmm...Konrad has visions, Corax can turn invisible, and Vulkan is unkillable.

 

Perhaps the special power the Emperor wove into the XIII's genes is the ability to make his enemies dramatically monologue at oppurtune moments.

:p

Or, probability manipulation. I mean, come on. He does seem to escape some pretty lucky stuff. He gets blown out into space. Manages to stay close enough to a ship with enough mass to have a small atmosphere while it is in orbit of a planet with a breathable atmosphere. He survives Kor Phaeron's sorcery and turns around rips out his heart(or was it hearts?). Gets ambushed by ten Astartes using anti-Astartes rounds with his pants down. Kills them all. Gets tricked into a building rigged with enough explosive to kill three Primarchs. An in the nick of time, he gets out of there by being transported to another world. And just when he needs to get back, low and behold he just manages to make it.

 

Not to mention, a skill like manipulating probability would be handy in managing something as large a 500 worlds, 300,000 Astartes and who knows how many mortals.

[depthcharge12]

Hmmm...Konrad has visions, Corax can turn invisible, and Vulkan is unkillable.

Perhaps the special power the Emperor wove into the XIII's genes is the ability to make his enemies dramatically monologue at oppurtune moments.

Astarte 6245: "Ahh Guilliman you fewl...you lay at the mercy of my knife...as no one has been able to before."

*twirls mustache fondly*

Guilliman: "You'll never get away with this you meddling kids!"

Astarte 6245's mustache: "Guilliman must see the err of his ways first"

Astarte 6245: " Yes my mustache *twirl fluff* well it all began on Orgwald 6 when I was at an eldar titty bar with some of my legionaries when some drunk Ultramarines started to-"

Guilliman: "Ah ha!!! take some of these logistics to the face! While you were talking, I made a functioning lascannon out of a rubber band, some cloth, and my dead servant's trachea!!!"

[Kais Klip]

 

Hmmm...Konrad has visions, Corax can turn invisible, and Vulkan is unkillable.

Perhaps the special power the Emperor wove into the XIII's genes is the ability to make his enemies dramatically monologue at oppurtune moments.

:p

Or, probability manipulation. I mean, come on. He does seem to escape some pretty lucky stuff. He gets blown out into space. Manages to stay close enough to a ship with enough mass to have a small atmosphere while it is in orbit of a planet with a breathable atmosphere. He survives Kor Phaeron's sorcery and turns around rips out his heart(or was it hearts?). Gets ambushed by ten Astartes using anti-Astartes rounds with his pants down. Kills them all. Gets tricked into a building rigged with enough explosive to kill three Primarchs. An in the nick of time, he gets out of there by being transported to another world. And just when he needs to get back, low and behold he just manages to make it.

Not to mention, a skill like manipulating probability would be handy in managing something as large a 500 worlds, 300,000 Astartes and who knows how many mortals.

300,000 emotionally stunted Astartes is nothing. Times Congress by five hundred, the poor bastard.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

Hmmm...Konrad has visions, Corax can turn invisible, and Vulkan is unkillable.

Perhaps the special power the Emperor wove into the XIII's genes is the ability to make his enemies dramatically monologue at oppurtune moments.

:p

Or, probability manipulation. I mean, come on. He does seem to escape some pretty lucky stuff. He gets blown out into space. Manages to stay close enough to a ship with enough mass to have a small atmosphere while it is in orbit of a planet with a breathable atmosphere. He survives Kor Phaeron's sorcery and turns around rips out his heart(or was it hearts?). Gets ambushed by ten Astartes using anti-Astartes rounds with his pants down. Kills them all. Gets tricked into a building rigged with enough explosive to kill three Primarchs. An in the nick of time, he gets out of there by being transported to another world. And just when he needs to get back, low and behold he just manages to make it.

Not to mention, a skill like manipulating probability would be handy in managing something as large a 500 worlds, 300,000 Astartes and who knows how many mortals.

300,000 emotionally stunted Astartes is nothing. Times Congress by five hundred, the poor bastard.

And yet he did reform the entire Imperium.

[Wade Garrett]

Now, the question becomes why Guilliman doesn't simply open every fight by forcing his opponent to gloat maniacally...

 

It was a duel of gods. Had any other observer been present, they would have sworn that the great statues of Maccrage's stoic war deities that overlooked the training hall had somehow sprung to life and sought to test each other's skill.

 

One god was shorter, with blunt, honest features, wielding a scutum and spatha in peerless coordination, while the other, a golden blaze of perfection and potentiality, matched his every move in spite of using only a single short bladed gladius.

 

Their contest was a study in contradiction, violent enough to draw hoots of appreciation from even the most bloodthirsty War Hound, yet so graceful that swordmasters of Fulgrim's Legion would have committed ritual suicide upon witnessing it and realizing they could never match such technical perfection.

 

The sparring session had run for hours, and seemed as if it could continue for hours more, when it happened. A deft twist of the golden god's wrist as long and short sword clashed and his rival's blade was sent flying.

 

The other divine warrior backstepped, shield rising to cover his now unarmed right side as the gladius wielder hefted his weapon with a predatory grin. The disarmed god had barely held him to a stalemate with a longer weapon and a shield, his defeat would be but a heartbeat way, now.

 

Yet instead of pressing his advantage, the golden god began to speak.

 

+And now this ends. A passable effort, but if you think you can take someone who was learning to handle a khophesh when..ROBOUTE! WHAT HAVE I TOLD YOU ABOUT USING THAT POWER FRIVOLOUSLY?+

 

"I apologize." The Battle King of Maccrage said, hanging his head Iin shame. "It was just that in the heat of the moment..."

 

+Guilliman. My son. I have entrusted you with a great power, but to wield it is a great responsibility. Only force your opponent to rant in an an overly dramatic fashion when your life, or the life of those you love, is in direst peril+

 

"I understand, and will do my duty."

[depthcharge12]

You do Matt Ward proud.

Them's fightin words