Fallen Codex Suppliment

[InstantKarma]

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-fallen-codex-supplement-announced.html

I apologize if this is a repeat post. I went back a few months and didn't see it as it's own topic and with the thread on FW doing Heresy-era DAs, I thought this would be relevant.

I can't look at the link from work right now, but I checked it out earlier. There was some debate if I recall, on whether a Fallen Suppliment would fall under C:CSM or C:DA. I personally think falling under C:DA makes more sense, given the somewhat ambigious nature of the primary protagonist for the Fallen, aka Cypher. While their playstyle might be better interpreted via C:CSM, I feel as though they are much more relevant to the DAs, and that it would not take too much 'tweaking' to make it work as a DA supplement.

Anyways, what are your thoughts, assuming there isn't a guy in white robs, black armor, and a skull-faced helm behind your chair at the moment?

[Eternal Warrior]

I believe that the fact that there are no rules for Cypher in and current codex is a crime to the hobby. It's easy to know someone like Abbadon's motivation but Cypher? There is so much room to run and GW has nothing current. Sad

[HsojVvad]

I hope it's for DA. Chaos can have so many supplements, while the DA can only have successor, and really how different will they be from DA?

 

I believe we can play DA totally different with Fallen. I would like to see how GW would handle this since fluffily there is not many Fallen to form a squad let alone chapter.

 

So it would be nice to play them, and play DA in a different way without using another codex. 

[Eternal Warrior]

And he has one of the coolest models ever and he was the original gunslinger.

[HsojVvad]

I believe that the fact that there are no rules for Cypher in and current codex is a crime to the hobby. It's easy to know someone like Abbadon's motivation but Cypher? There is so much room to run and GW has nothing current. Sad

 

Well there is the Spanish rules and stats for him. At least GW Spanish legal. :P

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I hope they never get a supplement. They are not an army, they are fragmented, work as individuals - squad at the max, possibly 2 squads. Any larger and the DW will get 'em. I especially do not want them as our supplement, I would rather they made Consecrators or Angels of Absolution and explored their mindsets. 

[HsojVvad]

See this is what I don't get. People claim fluff wise, Fallen shouldn't be played because they are not many of them.

 

So how come it's ok to play DA and SM non fluffily? 

 

It's a game for fun. GW usually throws out (for good reason) fluff out the window when it comes to playing games. Other wise, SM and DA would not be fun playing.

 

So for me at least, I say who care, lets play a chapter of Fallen. Lets have some fun. Otherwise, may as well scrap DA if we can't play a part of what makes Dark Angles, Dark Angles. I think it would be great to play what makes DA so unique. 

 

Wouldn't it be nice to ACTUALLY HUNT some Fallen instead of having a stupid rule so we can "pretend" to be DA when not hunting fallen? DAMN IT! I want to HUNT some Fallen now. 

 

:D

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I don't think they can be reflected as a supplement for either CSM, DA or IG. Theres too many variations for them to get it anywhere close to right.

[Surrender_Monkey]

A supplement for CSM would make more sense to me, since the Fallen would be better represented as individuals or a small squad fighting alongside a larger Chaos force, even if you wanted to stretch the fluff to an entire Fallen army they would probably have more in common with the traitor legions than the 41st millennium Dark Angels chapter.

 

Its a little sad but supplements are primarily fluff driven and the Dark Angels fluff and ruleset doesn't leave a lot of room for a supplement, with the possible exception of successor chapters and "generic" Raven/Deathwing Masters.

[InstantKarma]

I hope they never get a supplement. They are not an army, they are fragmented, work as individuals - squad at the max, possibly 2 squads. Any larger and the DW will get 'em. I especially do not want them as our supplement, I would rather they made Consecrators or Angels of Absolution and explored their mindsets. 

 

This is something I think the fluff for DAs has not been so clear about.  The Space Marine Legions numbered in the thousands and by the time the DAs are broken down into chapter size we have what, 4 chapters, each possibly numbering 1,000 Marines (can never be so sure with DAs of course)?  I had always imagined that when the Loyal DAs attacked the Fallen DAs at Caliban we had tens of thousands of SMs fighting each other.  The idea that only a handful of Fallen made it off Caliban just seems unlikely.  Then agan, GW fluff is awlays vague on purpose to encourage us to expand and add to it.

 

If nothing else there are 'pure' Fallen DA armies out there, consisting of only Space Marines.  Sure they could flirt with either C:CSM or C:DA and I'd personally be happy to use the DA dex and not even worry about it, but a supplement would be a nice opportunity to sort of show just how much/little of a break the Fallen really are with the DAs.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

there are 10,000 years of history. and a massive galaxy. Even if all came out by now, that would be what...3-5 a year? across the ENTIRE galaxy?

 

Hardly able to unite together...plus, we already know the 2nd founding numbers have been retconned...

[Bryan Blaire]

This has been posted, discussed and disproved. Vetock said he would like to do a Fallen supplement in an off-hand comment that someone reported from a Game Day or Wahammer World open day, and the Internet, as usual, ran buck wild with it. There was no such thing ever announced.

 

As for the Fallen organization, they should be disallowed Deathwing Squads of all kinds, since based on knowledge we have now, the Deathwing didn't exist before or during the Heresy, so the Fallen would have no reason to have squads organized in that fashion.

 

In reality, a Fallen supplement shouldn't use the DA Codex, because the Codex represents the Dark Angels as they fight now in the 41st Millennia, not how they fought when the split occurred. If anything, a Fallen army should fight much more closely to the original Dark Angels Legion, so should be more based on a FW book that isn't published just yet. They wouldn't know how to fight like the Dark Angels Chapter or any of the rest of the Unforgiven, so they shouldn't use the DA Codex.

[Cactus]

If (a big if) a Fallen Dark Angel army list ever appears I hope it's an extension of the Chaos Marine codex. Can you imagine the Deathwing having Preferred Enemy against every traitor marine except those from their own legion? Madness.

[FerociousBeast]

Fallen belong in either The Lost and the Damned or an Allies supplement. Nowhere else. That we don't have a LatD codex anymore is a crime against inhumanity.

[Ordo Machinum]

This has been posted, discussed and disproved. Vetock said he would like to do a Fallen supplement in an off-hand comment that someone reported from a Game Day or Wahammer World open day, and the Internet, as usual, ran buck wild with it. There was no such thing ever announced.

 

As for the Fallen organization, they should be disallowed Deathwing Squads of all kinds, since based on knowledge we have now, the Deathwing didn't exist before or during the Heresy, so the Fallen would have no reason to have squads organized in that fashion.

 

In reality, a Fallen supplement shouldn't use the DA Codex, because the Codex represents the Dark Angels as they fight now in the 41st Millennia, not how they fought when the split occurred. If anything, a Fallen army should fight much more closely to the original Dark Angels Legion, so should be more based on a FW book that isn't published just yet. They wouldn't know how to fight like the Dark Angels Chapter or any of the rest of the Unforgiven, so they shouldn't use the DA Codex.

 

Actually, there is evidence to allow it. If you count the FW HH: Betrayal book and the "Disposition of a SM Legion" section. 

 

Company breakdown is given as I - Elites (Vets, Terminators, etc), II-III-IV - Troops (Tacticals, Assaults, etc) , V - Specialists (Bikes, Jetbikes, Heavy Support's (Devastators), etc). It describes a "general" layout but goes on to describe how many legions varying in formations, etc as they grew larger. There's more, but I can't type it all. I used it as a basis for my own DA Legion project in my signature if you care to look. The Lion's tactical prowess and utilization of units should be very well known to all troopers in his legion.

 

I would like to use the DA codex for a Fallen army. I would like to use the CSM codex too. It's all in how you legion-ize it. Sure weapons etc can be looted, but try to go for the ol' 30K vibe. It's a shame you can't take the Betrayal weaponry versus 40K You could if the players are up to it. The Betrayal book actually speaks of using the 40K rules for un-legion-sized battles... you know, small skirmishes of no more than 2000 points. I think 40K games can handle that.

 

The modern DA are still led by the teachings of the Lion, even if they "yield" to Guilliman's Codex (which incorporates every fighting tactic, etc everywhere anyway). It's not unfeasible to use the C:DA, just pepper it with some "old school" legion-ness. Heck, if the DA are so secretly "Legion-like", this could be seen as confirmation to use the DA codex. YMMV.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

surely the Fallen would have lost most of their wargear...besides, how much specialist equipment would have been left on Caliban? Surely not much, and most would have been destroyed in the Fall of Caliban.

 

I would rather see them included in an allies supplement if we see them anywhere for Codex: IG and Codex: CSM

[Ordo Machinum]

surely the Fallen would have lost most of their wargear...besides, how much specialist equipment would have been left on Caliban? Surely not much, and most would have been destroyed in the Fall of Caliban.

I would rather see them included in an allies supplement if we see them anywhere for Codex: IG and Codex: CSM

Hmm, how much equipment left on Caliban? Reading the HH novels, they had their own forges churning out plenty of power armour, weapons etc to ship out to the Lion and the rest of the DA Legion. As well as enough to equip their own growing forces and training cadres.

"Surely not much"? Yes, you keep believing what the Inner Circle would have you comfortably believe...

... there are more things in the Warp and Caliban, Horatio, than are dreamt of...

Yes, I would rather see a decent CSM supplement or IG one. I miss Lost and the Damned. That's partly why the DA codex is so alluring. Sure, the SM one can allow any amount of fine tuning to mimic almost anything, but home is where the heretic is I suppose.

[Bryan Blaire]

Actually, there is evidence to allow it. If you count the FW HH: Betrayal book and the "Disposition of a SM Legion" section. 

 

Company breakdown is given as I - Elites (Vets, Terminators, etc), II-III-IV - Troops (Tacticals, Assaults, etc) , V - Specialists (Bikes, Jetbikes, Heavy Support's (Devastators), etc). It describes a "general" layout but goes on to describe how many legions varying in formations, etc as they grew larger. There's more, but I can't type it all. I used it as a basis for my own DA Legion project in my signature if you care to look. The Lion's tactical prowess and utilization of units should be very well known to all troopers in his legion.

 

I would like to use the DA codex for a Fallen army. I would like to use the CSM codex too. It's all in how you legion-ize it. Sure weapons etc can be looted, but try to go for the ol' 30K vibe. It's a shame you can't take the Betrayal weaponry versus 40K You could if the players are up to it. The Betrayal book actually speaks of using the 40K rules for un-legion-sized battles... you know, small skirmishes of no more than 2000 points. I think 40K games can handle that.

 

The modern DA are still led by the teachings of the Lion, even if they "yield" to Guilliman's Codex (which incorporates every fighting tactic, etc everywhere anyway). It's not unfeasible to use the C:DA, just pepper it with some "old school" legion-ness. Heck, if the DA are so secretly "Legion-like", this could be seen as confirmation to use the DA codex. YMMV.

So you agree that any Fallen lists should be like the FW Legions, not like the DA Codex.

 

The Deathwing didn't exist before the Fallen, so the Fallen shouldn't have their rules, any elite TDA should be based on the old Legion material.

 

Any Fallen supplement would need to be different enough to the DA Codex to make it a poor base to actually make one.

 

Regardless, at this point in time, we have a single author that says he'd like to make a supplement. Which probably means at this point, there aren't any plans for one, unless they have decided to run a misinformation campaign. They have quite a few more supplements to get through first.

[Ordo Machinum]

 

Actually, there is evidence to allow it. If you count the FW HH: Betrayal book and the "Disposition of a SM Legion" section. 

 

Company breakdown is given as I - Elites (Vets, Terminators, etc), II-III-IV - Troops (Tacticals, Assaults, etc) , V - Specialists (Bikes, Jetbikes, Heavy Support's (Devastators), etc). It describes a "general" layout but goes on to describe how many legions varying in formations, etc as they grew larger. There's more, but I can't type it all. I used it as a basis for my own DA Legion project in my signature if you care to look. The Lion's tactical prowess and utilization of units should be very well known to all troopers in his legion.

 

I would like to use the DA codex for a Fallen army. I would like to use the CSM codex too. It's all in how you legion-ize it. Sure weapons etc can be looted, but try to go for the ol' 30K vibe. It's a shame you can't take the Betrayal weaponry versus 40K You could if the players are up to it. The Betrayal book actually speaks of using the 40K rules for un-legion-sized battles... you know, small skirmishes of no more than 2000 points. I think 40K games can handle that.

 

The modern DA are still led by the teachings of the Lion, even if they "yield" to Guilliman's Codex (which incorporates every fighting tactic, etc everywhere anyway). It's not unfeasible to use the C:DA, just pepper it with some "old school" legion-ness. Heck, if the DA are so secretly "Legion-like", this could be seen as confirmation to use the DA codex. YMMV.

So you agree that any Fallen lists should be like the FW Legions, not like the DA Codex.

 

The Deathwing didn't exist before the Fallen, so the Fallen shouldn't have their rules, any elite TDA should be based on the old Legion material.

 

Any Fallen supplement would need to be different enough to the DA Codex to make it a poor base to actually make one.

 

Regardless, at this point in time, we have a single author that says he'd like to make a supplement. Which probably means at this point, there aren't any plans for one, unless they have decided to run a misinformation campaign. They have quite a few more supplements to get through first.

Yes, I agree any Fallen Lists should be like the FW legions.

 

The Deathwing (short of the name and bone-colour paint job - unless you count the rumours of six DA wings in 30K; four wings, at least, are mentioned in Unremembered Empire) structure could have existed. Entire company of terminators. Done. How many squads can/should fielded in a Fallen FOC? Could we suppose half a company? There's three EL slots to accommodate them, if you don't use a Fallen "counts-as-Belial".

 

Sure, as suggested, a Fallen supplement wouldn't necessarily be different enough to be warranted ...unless they went "LatD". This is one reason why I suggested the DA codex itself for Fallen.

 

The C:SM covers the founding chapters and their successors as having to follow their parent chapter's traits. It's less likely GW would delve into supplements for DA successors. The new "format" is to automatically count successors as following their parents' rules.  The Black Templars seem to have gotten the only exception to that.

 

As for misinformation campaigns... it be ironic if they did that since it would fit rather well with the DA's inner circles.

 

I like to consider a Fallen/CSM/IG supplement as a possibility.

[Bryan Blaire]

The Deathwing aren't only defined by the fact that they are in Terminator armor. Their rules in the game differentiate them for one, their entire purpose (being the mailed fist of the Hunt) for another. Neither of which would exist for any formation in the Heresy era but are critical to the identity of the Deathwing squads.

 

The Deathwing didn't exist in the Heresy:

Also, the Dark Angels have SIX wings. The Ravenwing is one and the Deathwing don't exist in the Heresy...

Emphasis mine.

 

As for DA Supplements not delving into Successors, well, they don't have to: the first C:SM supplement is actually delving specifically into the Third Company of the Imperial Fists. Actually lends some credence to something like a Supplement: Deathwing or Supplement: Ravenwing, or even a Supplement: 5th Company Dark Angels. They could even do something crazy like Supplement: Disciples of Caliban 1st Company "Pursuers of the Arch-Fallen" and it would all fall into direct line with what the Supplements seem to be doing right now.

[Ordo Machinum]

The Deathwing aren't only defined by the fact that they are in Terminator armor. Their rules in the game differentiate them for one, their entire purpose (being the mailed fist of the Hunt) for another. Neither of which would exist for any formation in the Heresy era but are critical to the identity of the Deathwing squads.

The Deathwing didn't exist in the Heresy:

Also, the Dark Angels have SIX wings. The Ravenwing is one and the Deathwing don't exist in the Heresy...

Emphasis mine.

As for DA Supplements not delving into Successors, well, they don't have to: the first C:SM supplement is actually delving specifically into the Third Company of the Imperial Fists. Actually lends some credence to something like a Supplement: Deathwing or Supplement: Ravenwing, or even a Supplement: 5th Company Dark Angels. They could even do something crazy like Supplement: Disciples of Caliban 1st Company "Pursuers of the Arch-Fallen" and it would all fall into direct line with what the Supplements seem to be doing right now.

30K & 40K rules aren't that different. Being a Mailed Fist of the Hunt is just as effective regardless of who/what you're hunting. The DA Codex is more Fallen-hunt-centric fluffwise.

In Unremembered Empire... the, or at least "a", Deathwing are mentioned.

Dark Angels Wings mentioned: Ravenwing, Deathwing, Dreadwing, Stormwing.

As the first Legion was used in the Unification Wars, the Dark Angels had access to lots of tech. In order to accomplish any mission that was needed, they had to rely on themselves... and when other legions' primarchs were found... the Dark Angels remained secretive... even before finding their primarch.

Okay, I'll concede some type of company/successor type supplement is possible. About as possible as a "crazy" Fallen one.

I will gladly welcome any DA-oriented material when it is revealed. I'll keep my blades of reason crossed...

[Chaplain Lucifer]

For me fallen supplement only makes sense in 30K. in 40K they're too scattered to make it a real army supplement for C:DA. Maybe a kill team supplement at best. Now if we talk a C:CSM supplement with the new #cannon fodder" they have for troops it's more feasible. Stillthere are some things that should remain just fluff.

[TheForgottenAngel]

I think people underestimate the numbers of survivors. We have no clear idea how many survived but I guarentee is is near a company if not more. Sure they are scattered but come on really? These guys were thrown through the warp, some may have just reappeared while others may have appeared instantly somewhere else.

 

Also food for thought, in Descent of Angels, the "Inner Circle" attempted to assassinate the Emperor. Yet there is still a tradition of an inner circle in present day 40k? Odd right? Perhaps the "Fallen" are truly amongst us now!?!

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

It is entirely probable that they bear no relation to the Inner Circle that took over after Jonson gets taken into the Rock. For all we know, they could all have been on Caliban still or died before the Fall. We only know of Nemiel...who died, and also repented of his anti-Emperor views.

I think the best way to do a Fallen supplement that would remain true would be to force taking Cypher as its noted only he can unite the traitors together. That, and/or restricting them by making them only allies to another codex, probably C: CSM and C: IG, as well as allowing us to still have Preferred enemy

[[TA]Typher]

This will have to be a supplement for chaos. Unless the inner circle rule is revamped it would make no sense for it to be a supplement for C:DA.