[HH1.0] Night Lords Tactics

[SkimaskMohawk]

When fists are only 5 points for 3 more strength its hard to ever take stock power weapons on terminators

[Lord Asvaldir]

I'm just not a huge fan of loading up on fists because you can't utilize talent for murder with fists. Plus since I often use the deep strike combi plasma/plasma blaster combo, I'd rather keep them cheap. Fists certainly are handy though for dealing with those 2w terminators, mechanicum and vehicles.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Thanks for the advice! In my area mecahnicum, vehicles, and a lot of 2 wound assault units are popular. I'll try to get my hands on a second terminator squad then.

 

What about:

+++ Night lords terminator (423pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) (423pts) ++

 

+ Elites (423pts) +

 

Combi-bolter and Power Weapon,

2x Chainfist ,

4x Combi-Weapon, Legion Terminator Sergeant, 8x Legion Terminators,

2x Pair of Lightning Claws, Plasma Blaster , 4x Power Fist, Teleportation

 

Is that too much for a squad?

[Drehn]

If your going to deep strike the unit (especially of Sevatar), you may want a smaller unit.  While they have no scatter, that's a lot of points, and has a big foot print. For a pure Deep Strike squad, consider something like 5, 4 Combi's and Heavy Weapon (With No Scatter, Flamer works, elsewise Plasma Blaster). As was suggested, Combi Plasma + Blaster can put a serious hurt on something out to 12", you can go Melta\Flamer Mix...

 

Also keep in mind how are you getting Sevatar into a good position to deep strike in that situation?  

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm just not a huge fan of loading up on fists because you can't utilize talent for murder with fists. Plus since I often use the deep strike combi plasma/plasma blaster combo, I'd rather keep them cheap. Fists certainly are handy though for dealing with those 2w terminators, mechanicum and vehicles.

 

Sure if you're going for purely a shooting unit, then axes or swords are fine as they don't run the points up at all, but gimping a melee squad just to make use of talent for murder is a waste. 

[Lord Asvaldir]

If you have the points sure, but a fist/chainfist on every man in a squad of 8-10 adds up.

[Hesh Kadesh]

What do you need a 10 man Terminator Squad for?

[helterskelter]

Hello we are the Night Lords, what we like to do is make sure you are really, really dead. Tac blobs, evaporated. Need ablative wounds to survive just a touch longer, bingo there's 10. Like spreading the love of weapons to make sure something is left alive to kill efficiently? 10 should do.

 

Oh before we forget we deep struck behind your typhon and shot it. Might go boom, might not but I'm in your deployment zone now and you can only get so far away before what's left charges (assuming you are playing that defensively there's more than one unit in your back field)

 

10 is a nice even number.

 

10 makes sure your killer gets where he needs to be.

[Vaz]

How about this for a discussion topic.

 

Is there ever reason to take a Terror Squad in a NON terror assault list, or are there simply better options? How do you take it when it's not a troop choice?

[helterskelter]

How about this for a discussion topic.

 

Is there ever reason to take a Terror Squad in a NON terror assault list, or are there simply better options? How do you take it when it's not a troop choice?

I'd argue exactly the same as a terror list squad depending on your play style if you took it.

 

Otherwise they're in the handsome elites slot, a little bit of competition as you are up against the dreadnoughts, and points wise further competition from heavy support as you'd have the full three slots available, I know I'd take tanks and an eddy so the terror squad might lose out to a vehicle

[Flint13]

I think the issue we run into more often is why not to take Terror Assault in the first place.

 

Terror Squads are crazy better than their same points in tactical marines, and aren't close to the "troop tax" many other legions RoW have to deal with.

[Hesh Kadesh]

How about this for a discussion topic.

 

Is there ever reason to take a Terror Squad in a NON terror assault list, or are there simply better options? How do you take it when it's not a troop choice?

There isn't really a reason to NOT run Terror Assault in the first place, IMHO. Sure there are some other niche aspects, such as Hit and Run with Night Raptors, but that's very niche and not very good due to what else you give up.

[Slips]

Besides, Curze has H&R and slots into Terror Assault Pretty Perfectly meaning you get your H&R Raptors w/ Curze AND Terror Assault Goodness if the points are high enough.

[Caillum]

Hopefully the new Night Lords Rite or the new/updated generic Rites will give us a reason to use something else. Going to read Pharos soon - maybe there'll be a Rite of War based off the Night Lords invasion of Sotha? (though Angel's Wrath seems to sum up the book cover)

[Hesh Kadesh]

Besides, Curze has H&R and slots into Terror Assault Pretty Perfectly meaning you get your H&R Raptors w/ Curze AND Terror Assault Goodness if the points are high enough.

Yarp. I can remember when book 2 came out and a regular opponent of mine finally found a use for his triple Whirlwind Army he'd stocked since 3rd Ed. First turn; "Boom, 4 Blasts, I count 18 hits, that's... 15 wounds. Boom! Goodbye unit."

 

"I make that 10 3+ cover saves (thank you, From the Shadows) and 3 2+ Saves on Curze, Curze taking a wound and a Night Raptor dead. Want to resolve your others?" Rough swearing that meant *no*. "IWND; Curze passes it".

 

I liked that unit. Really liked it, but it was that unit which saw about 3 Typhons join rosters in one month.

[Mazryonh]

There isn't really a reason to NOT run Terror Assault in the first place, IMHO. Sure there are some other niche aspects, such as Hit and Run with Night Raptors, but that's very niche and not very good due to what else you give up.

 

What about the Heavy Support restriction?  Isn't having just one a major liability?

[Slips]

No. Since most of your Anti-Tank is easily found in other slots like Elites and Fast Attack.

[Lord Asvaldir]

It's a pain sometimes to not be able to take multiple units of things like sicarans, or being able to take several heavy tanks, but it's really not a problem to get anti tank without heavy support.

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

There isn't really a reason to NOT run Terror Assault in the first place, IMHO. Sure there are some other niche aspects, such as Hit and Run with Night Raptors, but that's very niche and not very good due to what else you give up.

 

What about the Heavy Support restriction?  Isn't having just one a major liability?

 

What is it that you need your Heavy Support for? With the exception of a Deredeo, few other roles cannot be fulfilled elsewhere? Vindicators, Plasma/Melta preds etc? Typhon. Land Raiders/Spartans? Terminator/Breacher Transports. Fire Raptors/Sicarans? Typhon or Land Speeders. Vindi TD/Sicaran Venator? Rapiers with anything that's not a Quad Heavy Bolter. Anvillus? It's a Terror Assault List - 20 Man Tactical Squads are not available as Compulsory options, and large Terminator Squads can Deep Strike.

 

Only a Deredeo provides something that cannot be otherwise adequately fulfilled elsewhere - although even a Contemptor-Mortis Dread with Twin Kheres comes close if necessary.

 

People keep mentioning that Heavy Support is the most crowded slot - it's not. It has a great many options within that are all awesome, but non which are that awesome you need to take as many as possible which then crowds out any other option. If you wanted mass heavy support, then you're playing the wrong army. I mean, it's still possible to play it that way, but it's like dipping your toast in tea. We can't stop you from doing it, but it's just wrong. You should dunk biscuits in tea, and Night Lord Terror Assaults are the Bourbon Biscuits or the custard creams of dunking. 

 

Semi-joking analogues aside, you can play a legion however you like. It's your army. It took long enough for me to actually get a proper functioning AirCav army for Guard (despite having collected it for around 7 years prior to its release using models which were no longer in production), I still got called a glory seeking bandwagon hopper for that), and I had to sit through all that time of trying to work out how Attack runs worked in 3rd edition (hint, they didn't, good luck finding an opponent patient enough to try and headscratch their way through it with you), so I know the desire to have an army that you like the look of. After all, people have been wanting Spirit Host armies for Eldar, Wych Armies for Dark Eldar, Speed Kults for Orks, various Legions for Chaos etc for time. That said, the rules support a method and style of play which is meant to correlate with the tactics of the legion (unless you're Death Guard, in which case enjoy using your Bikers, Assault Squads, Psykers and Infiltrators), and Terror Assault non-more so. It provides a very powerful tactics (deploy whereever, get a 3HP Void Shield) which combined with good units (Preferred Enemy S5 AP5 Assault 2 with Deflagrate, 2 Attack base, 2 CCW's, +1 to wound if outnumber).

 

That lends to combining really well, and the state of the game supports such alternative deployments to do very well, and NL's can capitalise on that, doubly so with the chance to get I5 Terminators/Night Raptors, giving you Stealth via night fighting (and an existing 1st turn +1 to cover), as well as working well in CC (where in the past, many armies built for gunlines. So now, not only do you not recieve the pain of an enemy gunline thanks to not having to face 2-3 turns of shooting, but you can hit the enemy where they are usually weaker.

 

If you want to run Armoured Assault, feel free. You will be paying more points to get absolutely no benefit whatsoever of the rules. Note that this is seperate than the case of not taking power fists because you don't get bonuses, because powerfists are a handful of points for getting the same benefit and getting better out of it (the question between getting a Drop Pod or spending some points on a Dreadclaw comes under the same, for example). 

 

I hope that makes a bit of sense where I'm coming from. I don't mean to tell you THIS IS THE WAY IT MUST BE PLAYED as I don't want to say that. It's everyone's own personal collection. It's just that this is a tactics section, where if we're talking tactics, the question is usually "how do I make X work" (see above for our Primus Medicae discussion). In some cases, Black Reaving, Logos Lectura, or Fluffy Death Guard with the Reaving, they don't really work, and you're often better off building an army along the same lines without limiting yourself. There's nothing wrong with running a Heavy Support based army (one of my first theoretical lists involved spamming out Graviton Rapiers and Quad Mortars (before they got Shatter Shells - about the only thing I'll be hipster about, because I still believe they shouldn't have them, now where's that beard, pipe and typewriter emoji?), a trio of Medusa and 2x3 Predators with the old Command Tank rule giving one of the tanks Interceptor and the Plasma Cannon, backing up a Deep Striking Chainfist and Plasma Terminator Centre helped by Snipers. It was really just an army abusing Pinning which wouldn't be too effective. 

 

When you first think of Night Lords, Artillery heavy isn't one of the first identifiers, but you'd imagine they'd still have them. While that army never really saw the light of day, I think looking back it would have been a novel take on them, and looked rather cool, if only I've painted (my entire collection is locally called the Grey Legion - only my old Elysians were painted to the 3 colour minimum we used to hold (and that was Black with Red Gore Visors and Dark Angel's green rifles. Go figure). 

 

You can make an army out of pretty much anything (except Recon marines) and make a reasonably effective army out of it. There are certain designs in each legion which at least attempt to support a particular style of play - Night Lords unequivocally do best when being able to get in close and being able to get in CC or Volkite Charger range on their Preferred Enemy units, and the Rite of War removes the "useless" unit taxes that are Tactical Marines, and gives Terror Squads the ability to be taken in that place, at the expense of having to take an additional one. While any army can do that with Orbital Assault - orbital assault means that you have no Rapier Support until turn 2 or 3, nor can you taken anything like a Medusa Squadron (lets just call it what it actually is), Predator Squadron or Typhon, which are all rather good options. Terror Assault lets you take one of the squadrons and/or a Typhon. You don't really need much more anti-infantry than that. Anti tank can be covered by Medusa (which have Barrage, so side hit vehicles with S10 Ap2 shots that roll 2 dice and choose the highest for damage) and Graviton Rapiers or dual Graviton Dreadnoughts. If you forgo Anti-Air, you can either pick up some cheap auxilia infantry (they don't score, though) with Tarantula's or a Thunderbolt (gets rerolls to reserves if enemy Flyers/Skimmers are present), or even pick up a Xiphon Interceptor. 

 

It's a rather good Rite of War, with a rather good legion, that combine to make it a Tier 2 list (out of 4 Tiers, with Tier 1 being the best).

[Loddfafnir113]

That was really well put Hesh. Addressed a lot of the thoughts I've been having about Terror Assault and general NL stuff and helped iron out a few issues I've had. Turns out, all I needed was a good biscuit analogy to get everything sorted.

[Drehn]

Now, I'm not going to even try and say Terror Assault is bad (I use it and love it myself), but I think you are over stating the effect of only having 1 HS slot, and the No Allies\No Fortifications can be.  Terror Assault basically pigeon holes you into one basic build concept..3 Terror Squads, likely a Deredo, AT of your choice from Rapiers\Contemptors\Bikes\etc plus characters is 75% of your army....again, not a bad list, but it does mean this is what your building, and list restrictions don't give you any choice.   

 

Personal note on your HS...I think you vastly underestimate the Sicarans in your example as well.  Rapiers, a Typhon, or Land Speeders are not quite the same.  2 of those lack the speed, and Rapiers can have range issues.  Also, the power of Shock Pulse on the Venator is unavailable elsewhere, especially for limiting the firepower of Super heavies.  Elsewise, I agree with your comments...

[helterskelter]

Solar auxilia allies are allowed, as are ad mech. At 2k you can squeeze something In. Eg I have found space for a leman Russ incinerator. I like terror, I like tanks. Martian death rays on tanks is scary. Ahem.

In bigger games over the 2k mark these allies can certainly bring more to the table, especially as you can squadron leman Russ. With varieties in fast attack and heavy section in theory you could still have 6 battle tanks in a terror army through the medium of your allies.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Heresy plays best with 2400+pts. What's new? I've been saying this as long as I've been here. Sure that isn't always an option, so play ZM. 2000 makes all lists very boring, and rather.,cookie cutter. After spending 1600pts on building the core of your list, rather than shoehorning in a single large unit/super heavy or whatever, play at a larger points value.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Hey guys so I tried my firsts list with, I feel like it's low on anti tank. It's a little hard to fit every bring in to the list.

 

+++ Terror assualt (2490pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) (2490pts) ++

 

+ HQ (175pts) +

 

Sevatar (175pts)

····Master of the Legion [Terror Assault]

 

+ Troops (835pts) +

 

Terror Squad (305pts) [9x Executioner, Legion Drop Pod, 9x Volkite Charger]

····Headsman [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Nostraman Chainglaive]

 

Terror Squad (305pts) [9x Executioner, Legion Drop Pod, 9x Volkite Charger]

····Headsman [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Nostraman Chainglaive]

 

Terror Squad (225pts) [6x Executioner, Legion Drop Pod, 4x Volkite Charger]

····Headsman [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs]

 

+ Elites (905pts) +

 

Contemptor Dreadnought Talon (270pts)

····Legion Contemptor Dreadnought [Graviton Gun, Kheres Pattern Assault Cannon, Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod]

 

Legion Dreadnought Talon (250pts)

····Legion Dreadnought [Armoured Ceramite, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter, 2x Graviton Gun, Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod, Up to two Hunter Killer Missiles]

 

Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (385pts) [Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod, Furious Charge, Heavy Flamer, 8x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Melta Bombs, 4x Power Weapon]

····Legion Veteran Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Nostraman Chainglaive]

 

+ Fast Attack (335pts) +

 

Night Raptor Squad (335pts) [9x Night Raptor, Pair of Lightning Claws, 4x Power Weapon]

····Huntmaster [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Nostraman Chainglaive]

 

+ Heavy Support (240pts) +

 

Deredeo Pattern Dreadnought (240pts) [Aiolos Missile Launcher, Armoured Ceramite, Twin-linked Heavy Flamer]

 

+ Legion +

 

Legion Astartes [VIII: Night Lords]

[Slips]

If you feel like your lacking Anti-Tank you could always run Tank Hunter Melta Bomb Vets.