Death Company power weapon options

[Memento Of Prospero]

Which brand of primer brother? Outside temperature is a fickle thing. Too cold and it cloths stiff, too humid and it does not stick properly and welts.

[Sanguine Eternal]

The GW Chaos Black primer.  It was probably only like 6-8 degrees celsius out last night maybe.  Didn't even think that would have had such a huge effect.

I'm off to buy a giant container of Simple Green from Costco when it opens.  I've used it before and it seems to do the trick.  Just upset I wasted a whole can of primer.  Oh well, live and learn.  

[knife&fork]

There's been a number of people who had trouble with GW black primer recently, probably a bad batch. As long as the paint is stored inside and the models are brought in quickly 6-8c shouldn't be a problem. 

[Memento Of Prospero]

Its the GW primers. White as always been bad, and black is spotty at times

[Sanguine Eternal]

The can was stored inside, and I was outside for maybe 20 minutes priming, still wasn't that cold out I thought.  I haven't had a problem with their primers before up until now.  The light was on outside, and they looked black when I did the first coat.  Then went a weird greyish colour.  Any brands of spray paint your guys recommend?

[Memento Of Prospero]

How long did you shake the can dor prior to priming? Shaking vigourously for 2-3 minutes is a must. 5 degrees is a little cold to do priming, but it shouldn't produce that bad of a result. Prime from 12-15 inches away. I use army painter primer, that stuff is thr bomb digity.

[Sanguine Eternal]

Yeah I followed the usual protocol.  Lots of shaking, good distance away.  Ugh...  first time this has ever happened.  And it was a large batch of priming I was doing as well.  Wouldn't have minded so much if it was only on a few guys, but 10 pretty custom death company, a dreadnought, and drop pod..  Wasn't a good night.  I'll look into that army painter stuff.  I've never seen any of the good brands I hear about at Michaels.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Michaels paint is for girly men projects brother. Always remember that.

[Sanguine Eternal]

Haha, I've been using 3 of their golds which look really nice once dulled down with some agrax. But other than that, their paints are junk.  My gf and I have a niece and nephew that come over lots, and the nephew loves painting.  He's just over 2 now, and every time he sees me painting he says "I luff painting!" "I want to paint" "You paint your space ship/soldiers?"

Can't go wrong with the $1 paints they sell over there for the kids.  Other than that I'm straight GW product. 

The models are in a big pot of simple green soaking for a day or 2.  I'll get on some photos of the finished DC.

[Lysere]

Yes, but a str.5 power sword with AP3, and wounding on 3's  on a T4 character with re-rolls will probably work out to roughly the same. The big difference is your are potentially forcing an invul save.  Power mauls are junk in 6th.  I love the idea of clubbing someone to death with a mace, but I wouldn't ever purchase them.

 

That is why I give all my chaplains or reclusiarch's power fists as well.

 

 

BA is not an army I play but being a big fan of mauls I figured I would have to argue this point as it is actually very much unture. Power Mauls are junk against MEQs, especially when furious charge already makes up for the poor strength of the sword, as do your re-rolls. Against literally Everything other than MEQs the maul is better than the sword. Same number of swings, higher base strength (can actually wound literally anything in the game when combined with furious charge) will instakill most eldar, DE, IG, and non suit Tau characters, can drop faster monstrous creatures down to I1 after the first round of combat (making everything else you have better in the second round) and can reliably damage or kill most vehicles. With mostly Xenos armies up next for new books the Maul will only be getting better and better. It even comes out ahead against 2+ saves or higher invulns because it can force many more wounds. Look at it this way, if your fighting a captain and honorguard, or a squad of guys with 3++ saves your swords will be no better than the maul in terms of ignoring saves. However the maul will almost always wound on a 2+, which you can re-roll meaning compared to the sword you should only fail a handful of hits and wounds. Also when the combat inevitably drags on, or they charge you, you are still wounding marines on a 2+ instead of a measly 4+.

 

Just some ranting.

[Sanguine Eternal]

@Lysere

You are right.  I would agree with everything you said.  My lack of experience with them probably got the best of me in the argument that they are junk.  I also play a lot of MEQ, or Tau suit armies more often than anything else, so I have never really found a purpose for them in my games.  I can definitely see myself using them in the future though.

[Lysere]

@Lysere

 

You are right.  I would agree with everything you said.  My lack of experience with them probably got the best of me in the argument that they are junk.  I also play a lot of MEQ, or Tau suit armies more often than anything else, so I have never really found a purpose for them in my games.  I can definitely see myself using them in the future though.

 

Yeah sadly with how the current meta is I don't get much use out of them except against our guard and ork players. The biggest thing that makes them good is when they are on guys who aren't characters so they can't just be challanged by the one guy who has the better save and weapon on their side. As someone who has a lot of power weapons in my list I always try to mix them up a bit just in case. I even have a bike with a lance even though it's primarily a shooting unit. (I'm a Templar what can I say) The more variety you have, the less likely you are to end up in a situation where your weapons are useless.

[knife&fork]

3+ is very common though. It's not just marines anymore, besides Tau suits there's almost every Eldar unit and most monstrous creatures too. With Orks, IG and Nids coming up I don't see a huge shift for 4+ saves, and it's not like we usually struggle against anything with that save anyway. 

 

VS everything but low/med T targets with good invuls you get more kills for your points with a fist, or even a hammer if want concussive. 

[Lysere]

3+ is very common though. It's not just marines anymore, besides Tau suits there's almost every Eldar unit and most monstrous creatures too. With Orks, IG and Nids coming up I don't see a huge shift for 4+ saves, and it's not like we usually struggle against anything with that save anyway. 

 

VS everything but low/med T targets with good invuls you get more kills for your points with a fist, or even a hammer if want concussive. 

 

Tau may be 3+ saves in suits or better, but if you reach tau suits of any flavor with death company you don't even need weapons, sharp sticks would be complete overkill. Also against armies like orks or nids the high strength combined with AP 4 means that anything that isn't a 3+ save or better gets no chance to survive, and you're also wounding far better than any sword will. If your target isn't wearing power armor or some equivalent then there is no use for a sword unless you just want a "balanced" loadout, in which case you should still bring along a maul or two.

[Sanguine Eternal]

I don't think wounding is the issue though.

I just tested out 50 attacks with both a power maul vs a power sword against MEQ.  This test was with furious charge, and a chaplain in the squad.

Wounds inflicted:

Power Maul: 45
Power Sword/Chain Sword: 44

The results are going to be roughly the same on a game to game basis.  So if you put that into perspective, a 15pt power maul is essentially just as effective as a chain sword.  For the same price, I'd gladly take the AP3 over +2 strength.  They only become effective cost wise when they are used against a 4+ save, or MC's.  But again, fists are better for them too.  Units that typically have a 4+ save, have a toughness of 3 as well, in which case, swords are wounding on 2's as well...

[Lysere]

Sanguine Eternal, on 21 Oct 2013 - 23:12, said:

I don't think wounding is the issue though.

 

I just tested out 50 attacks with both a power maul vs a power sword against MEQ. This test was with furious charge, and a chaplain in the squad.

 

Wounds inflicted:

 

Power Maul: 45

Power Sword/Chain Sword: 44

 

The results are going to be roughly the same on a game to game basis. So if you put that into perspective, a 15pt power maul is essentially just as effective as a chain sword. For the same price, I'd gladly take the AP3 over +2 strength. They only become effective cost wise when they are used against a 4+ save, or MC's. But again, fists are better for them too. Units that typically have a 4+ save, have a toughness of 3 as well, in which case, swords are wounding on 2's as well...

Simply 'testing' a roll is not accurate, either use mathhammer or not at all because on average you will always have more wounds with a maul, the biggest boost though is with the fact that when you are charged (which you will be at some point) you will still be wounding on 2s, a sword won't be working nearly as well in those situations.

 

[Edit:]

 

So let us assume your on the charge here. Just to make the difference more obvious between the two I will run it as 5 marine all with the same power weapon, either sword or maul. Also let us assume the chaplain is in there for the re-rolls.

 

T4 - 4+: Maul-21.61 Sword-19.75

T4 - 3+: Maul-7.2 Sword-19.75

T4 - 2+: Maul-3.6 Sword-3.2

 

So very similar, however is the target has any invulnerable saves of 4+ or better than the sword would rapidly lose effectiveness as well.

 

Now let us change toughness values.

 

T5 - 4+: Maul-21.61 Sword-16.67

T5 - 3+: Maul-7.2 Sword-16.67

T5 - 2+: Maul-3.6 Sword-2.78

 

So true, the sword isn't much worse than the maul in terms of wounds, but what happens when you lose a strength, lets say enfeebled, or better yet you get charged by something else and lose all your major bonuses?

 

T4 - 4+: Maul-8.3 Sword-5

T4 - 3+: Maul-2.7 Sword-5

T4 - 2+: Maul-1.4 Sword-.8

T5 - 4+: Maul-6.7 Sword-3.3

T5 - 3+: Maul-2.2 Sword-3.3

T5 - 2+: Maul-1.1 Sword-.55

 

Also when facing T3 opponents you are instakilling and ignoring FNP when swinging with a maul. Again the only time the sword is actually better than the Maul is against a model with a 3+ save and a toughness that does not exceed it's own strength. Ignoring saves for a minute and just going off of toughness the Swords chance of wounding a models is (on the charge again)

T6-.49 T7&8-.27 Per attack.

Meanwhile the Maul:

T6-.79 T7-.66 T8-.49 T9&10-.27 Per attack.

 

Keep in mind all of these numbers are assuming that you are hitting on a 3+ with re-roll, but this isn't always the case.

 

Again though if you know your fighting marines swords in general are a good choice to bring along in at least small numbers. If you want to be versatile though then the Maul will always be the better choice than a sword, regardless of the rest of your bonuses. Of course you could bring both along with a couple powerfists or axes and be ready for anything.

 

Also on the topic of fists, as you swing last you can never be sure you'll even get a swing in at all, the maul actually is better paired with a fist due to concussive. Dropping an MC down to I1 in the first round guarantees that regardless of anything else your fists will get two full turns to swing against the creature. Depending on how the first round went this can mean the difference between winning and watching your squad get butchered.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Interesting analysis on the maul vs sword, though I'm not convinced either are worth it unless you're playing apoc perhaps.  Really, death co shine in their point-cost to attack efficiency.  For 185 points I can get 8 DC with a power fist.  That's an INSANE close combat cost-to-damage-output unit with 35 WS5, S5 attacks (if all BP/CCW) and 4 WS5 S9 AP2 PF attacks on the charge.  You have 4 LASCANNONS in fist form with bodies with FNP to back it up!  I'd say we can threaten a good 90% of your opponent's models with just that setup alone.  Points are better spent elsewhere in our lists like support and drop pod blood wine dispensers.

 

I like to add in an axe to top it off to 200 points for 5 WS5 S6 AP2 hits, but I recently K&F is steadily convincing me that the Infernus Pistol is a better, more flexible purchase.  What really frustrates me is I just made a really cool axe DC marine and here I am like "Welcome chosen dust collector".  Warhammer problems...

[Sanguine Eternal]

What really frustrates me is I just made a really cool axe DC marine and here I am like "Welcome chosen dust collector".  Warhammer problems...

 

Well I can't speak for the gamers in your area, but I know I wouldn't have a problem in a game saying that those 2 power swords and thunder hammer count as chain swords.

 

I think they'd be more than happy...  Just becomes an issue when you have say 3 fists and only want to count 1 for example.  Their might be some confusion as to which fist is actually THE fist.

 

As for the whole mathhammer thing...  I would disagree that testing by rolling dice proves nothing.  If I even rolled it again, it would be similar results.  It's a physical test, which proves to be the same time and time again in any given game I am playing.  The differences were so small in your example as well, but the difference is the AP value.  Therefor a sword is better in an average game compared to a maul.  In an average game, you are not facing an army of T7+

 

Your numbers only seem to matter when that unit is charged, and the swords value decreases because of its lack of strength, it honestly probably works out to be the exact same unsaved wounds though. 3 base attacks each, you are getting 2-3 wounds probably to my 1-2 wounds.  No saves allowed at AP3, compared to probably 1 unsaved 3+ roll on yours.

 

By saying if a model has a 4+ invulnerable the sword loses its effectiveness as well doesn't really work.  You are forcing a model to roll a higher save, where as the maul they are getting their 3+ still.  Greater chance of a failed save.

 

And corrected me if I am wrong, but concussive only works on that model that is hit with it.  So a 1 wound model with a 4+ save doesn't get the benefits of concussive anyways since it's dead, so what's the point?  It doesn't affect the entire unit.  Even then, the unit won't survive past the first turn most likely for any effects of concussive to matter.  Your example of against a MC is a different story, and it works in that particular situation.