Alternate Heresy Community Project

[Wade Garrett]

Hmmm....

 

My original idea for the Imperial Hounds is that it's easy to look at them, with their war dogs, face paint, dog's teeth fetishes, Sarum helms, and ursus claws on their ships and say "Yep. Heathen berserkers."

 

But if you scratch some of the veneer off you find the 19th century British navy (to the point that I considered giving them a suitably Vikingized "Heart of Oak" as a Legion hymn.)

 

I think it's interesting that both Lorgar and Leman (Yo ho ho and pieces of eight mask over SAS/Navy Seals) might like each other if they ever got past the "Conan" and "Long John Silver" roles they're both playing.

[Wade Garrett]

All right, random brainstorming ideas for the re-tooling of the Seventeenth Legion:

 

The Hussite rebellions. Specifically, Jan Huss and his wagon forts.

 

The fortification thing I'm borrowing from the Imperial Roman Legions, who raised fortified camps of wood and earth each time they marched. Caesar's most famous victory in Gaul was siege based, after all. They also employed armored war dogs, so there's that.

 

The William King books say that iron is scarce on Fenris, swords, spears, and the like are valuable and hard to come by...perhaps the Legion uses weapons based on those Lorgar/his Mom developed from farming tools?

 

The Hussites had their flails, and I could throw in some of the karate weapons that were supposed to have been started out as farming tools (kama, tonfa, sai). Possibly even scythes, if that wouldn't bring them too close to the canon Death Guard.

 

Actually, given that I had Lorgar as a carpenter/shipwright, if you get a Primarch working with wood you might wind up with all kinds of wargear and such that doesn't require metal.

 

Somehow, I'd like to work in the idea of the Hounds as fur clad mountain men, like Jeremiah Johnson or Grizzly Adams. That would also fit with Lorgar's cabin/fort making image, and they'd still look like hairy savages to most of the other Legions.

 

A lot of this has sweet feth all to do with them being void war specialists. Then again, the canon Iron Warriors Classical Greek schtick doesn't affix itself with Verdun or the Somne in any logical way, and I'm not sure what at what point "pretty boy vampires who live on Fallout planet and like art" links up with "vicious close quarters shock troops".

[Noctus Cornix]

An idea for Noctus's Chainsworn:

 

Cormac Airt and I have been PMing one another about the Corsairs and Hounds, and one of the ideas we had was that the treachery at the Boros Gate begins with a "xenos attack", that is, ships of non human origin crewed by Corsairs launching automated boarding vehicles packed full of captured xenos monsters at the Seventeenth.

 

It occurred to me that such beasts might be a gift to Leman from Lanista, and that his Legion maintains a stable of captive Orkz, armbulls, and the like implanted with modified Butcher's Nails and thrown into the teeth of the enemy (modifications include the ability to cause the creatures to fall dead or unconscious when the Beast Master/controller pushes a button.)

 

I'm seeing a ragged Lorgar slaying something particularly awful (Cretacean carnosaur with Nails?) and Leman congratulating him with "Good on ye, Split Face! I bet that pale bastard three ships it'd take more than a lizard to send you to Hell!" as he moves in for the kill himself.

 

Ferrous's opinion of these practices? Who do you think made the modded Nails?

 

"You want me to help you enslave xenos by implanting human technology in their flesh? I admire that cruelly ironic sense of justice you have, Lan. I truly do."

 

No thanks.

[Wade Garrett]

It was just a thought.

 

*shrugs*

 

I felt the idea of the Chainsworn having a menagerie of monsters to unleash on their enemies would give them a "Nucerian gladiatorial" feel without treading into World Eater waters.

 

And it would make the fate of the Astartes who have the Nails driven in even more shameful, since their Father considers them worth about as much as Xenos beasts.

 

But your Legion, your baby. I may just have the Minotaurs pick up the practice, since they're the cybernetic gladiator Slaanesh Legion.

[Noctus Cornix]

Yes but that doesn't mean I have to divert to using xenos scum to do my bidding when I have 9 legions and a horde humans and daemons to do my bidding. I don't like stretching so far from the standardized lore of 30k.

[Wade Garrett]

My theory was Corax sees everything as tools for him to use (mortals, his Astartes, his brothers) and this would extend to lethal xenos creatures like, for

example, the megarachnids of Murder.

 

Now, as far as Ferrus enslaving xenos...which of these says Ferrus's hatred of aliens is a bit unhealthy, him and his Legion purging every one they come across in the Great Crusade like every other Primarch and Legion ever, OR him having the hold of his ships crammed with various alien creatures he's hammered the Nails into, and sometimes he goes down there and watches them tear each other apart or beat their own brains out against the walls of their holding pens with a creepy smile on what's left of his face?

 

They'd be a bit like Fabius's Terrata in Angel Exterminatus, really.

[Noctus Cornix]

Not touching xenos. Period.

[Ace Debonair]

I could see the post-atrocity Minotaurs using nail-implanted captives of any species as shock attack / cannon fodder.

 

I'm not sure the practice would be widely used before the atrocity, although I suppose it could be kept fairly low-key, so who knows?

[Wade Garrett]

Pre Atrocity. ..I'd say it's something only Ferrus does, again, like Fabius and his mutant Marines.

 

It's only after he and Dorn kill each other that the whole Legion picks the idea up.

 

And noctus, no one is trying to make you touch the slimy xenos. :p

 

Said xenos would be cool to model as a "counts as" Caedere Squad using the 30k World Eater rules.

 

Take some Orkz, Fantasy Sauruses, Skaven, and so on to represent really weird alien gribblies, green stuff techno dreadlocks on their heads and give them some appropriately brutal weapons.

[Gree]

Since I got a couple of messages I might as well put this up: I am currently involved in a very serious family emergency at the moment, one that is taking up much of my attention. Feel free to develop my Angron and Sanguinius if you wish, because I will otherwise be unable to participate in this for the foreseeable future.

[Hyaenidae]

Sorry to hear that, man. My best wishes to you and your family.

[Conn Eremon]

Ah, hadn't noticed this post. Disregard my last message. I will respect your wishes set forth in your message to me and Ridcully and remove you from the project and any messages relating to it.

 

You will, however, retain the right to rejoin if able or willing at a later date, as I hope will be the case.

[Wade Garrett]

Sorry to hear that, Gree. A second and most sincere affirmation of Heathen's remarks.

[Conn Eremon]

Okay, well.

 

So, Sanguinius and Angron are now up for grabs. I'm going to be a bit stingy and lay claim on Sanguinius. I've listed my reasons before why I wanted to work with Gree on the Angel, so I won't re-iterate it again. I realize this makes me responsible for four separate Primarchs and Legions, with my two and Heathens' Ghost Fox, but unless it's an actual problem with someone I think it'll be okay. If it is, we'll work something out. 

 

Angron is on the table. Technically, anyone can have a go. But I want to point out that Brother Heinrich, no I'm alpharius, Rune Priest Ridcully, Thunor's_Hammer each only have one. noctus cornix does as well, but that one is the Warmaster/Arch-Heretic, which elevates him a bit above. 

 

Honestly, Ridcully or Thunor should have first crack, as they both only got sideline Primarchs. Konrad and the Twins are more prominent in the narrative thus far. Having an additional Primarch might also get them to be more involved.

 

Whoever gets what, remember that these Primarchs remain Gree's, whatever his absence. While we might not follow his original pieces to the letter, we should at least keep the tone and feel of what he intended for them. Don't recreate them, build off of them.

[Wade Garrett]

On the one hand, I have what I think are some boffo ideas for color pieces with Lorgar and my theoretical philosopher Angron.

 

On the other hand...three Primarchs, Mr. Garrett. A sad thing it is, to see someone fall to gluttony. Tell you what. I'll snag Angron if and only if absolutely no one else in the project wants him.

 

And now, I wait.

[Ace Debonair]

Hmm. I couldn't do anything clever with Angron if I wanted to.

He'd just be 'Bron but a Loyalist'.

Gree, I hope everything sorts itself out for you, man. And hopefully we come up with something suitably awesome for you to come back to.

To digress slightly, there's a detail that I've been pondering over the last few days. Specifically, in what order are the Primarchs going to be found?

If we keep the discovery of the Primarch's worlds in the same order as canon (and skipping the two lost ones), it goes:

1) Alpharius and Omegon

2) Lorgar 'Cleftjaw'

3) Fulgrim Dragonslayer

4) Perturabo

5) Adra'Melek

6) Lasartine Bron

7) Angron

8) Anubis

9) Konrad Dominus (I know, Heinrich wanted it changed back to Curze, but Konrad Dominus is just such a badass name)

10) Magnus the Red-Maned

11) Roboute Barabbas

12) Sanguinius

13) Jonson the Palatine

14) Rogal Dorn the Haunted

15) Lanista Corax / Ferrous Mordrax

16) Lupercal

17) Leman Barbedor

And while I don't see much wrong with that list as it is, I think it might make more sense to move Corax and Ferrous to rather earlier in the list, if only to lend more credibility to Corax becoming Warmaster through longer association with his Father.

I also vaguely remember Cormac saying Leman should turn up earlier instead of waiting for Dad to come and find him, which I think would be pretty awesome.

So, with that in mind, here's what I'd use for a revised order.

1) Alpharius and Omegon

2) Lorgar 'Cleftjaw'

3) Lanista Corax / Ferrous Mordrax (Mostly for more time for the Emperor to see Warmaster potential in Corax)

4) Perturabo

5) Leman Barbedor (A pretty early arrival for Leman, but also plenty of Primarchs already about so he can see what loot and glory he'd get by signing up)

6) Adra'Melek

7) Fulgrim Dragonslayer (Fulgrim still gets plenty of time to pal up with his brothers but can also immediately see what great achievements Corax, Perturabo etc have wrought)

8) Angron

9) Anubis

10) Konrad Dominus

11) Magnus the Red-Maned

12) Roboute Barabbas

13) Sanguinius

14) Jonson the Palatine

15) Rogal Dorn the Haunted

16) Lasartine Bron (Bron doesn't need to be found early on, it gives him time to conquer his own little empire and build the Phalanx or whatever it'll be called)

17) Lupercal (Lupercal being the last one found fits pretty well - never really fits into the Imperium or understands his real place in it, easy for him to turn against it later)

I realise I haven't really shaken up a lot of the order there, but I'm not if early or late discoveries would influence anyone else's Primarchs.

Does anyone else have any ideas or preferences on the order the Primarchs are discovered?

[Wade Garrett]

I'd move Fulgrim and Dorn up a bit. Fulgrim because he needs to prove his quality to his brothers (not that he'll see it this way) so that it makes sense for he and his Legion to be picked to oversee Dad's hospital bed, Rogal so Perturabo has time to see him ruin his Legion, reach out, and get rebuffed.

 

Leman may need to be moved back, because Cormac had some ideas about his Primarchless Legion and Rogue Trader Dynasties, which will need time to simmer.

 

And remember, Corax isn't appointed by the Emperor, but...I guess voted in? By his brothers.

[Ace Debonair]

Oh, I'd confused myself there. I thought the Big E still picked the Warmaster, but that makes no sense on second thought.

 

Even so, having Corax/Ferrous fairly early on so he gets enough time to convince everyone he'd be an awesome Warmaster makes sense, right?

 

OK, so how about:

 

1) Alpharius and Omegon

2) Lorgar 'Cleftjaw'

3) Lanista Corax / Ferrous Mordrax

4) Perturabo

5) Fulgrim Dragonslayer

6) Adra'Melek

7) Angron

8) Anubis

9)  Rogal Dorn the Haunted

10) Leman Barbedor

11) Konrad Dominus

12) Magnus the Red-Maned

13) Roboute Barabbas

14) Sanguinius

15) Jonson the Palatine

16) Lasartine Bron

17) Lupercal

[Adra'Melek]

I don't think I should pick up Angron. I don't think I can do it justice nor will I be able to spend the required time on two.

[Wade Garrett]

That works for me.

 

Let's see...Emps picks up two Primarchs who start a civil war on Terra itself, a maimed superstitious barbarian, and a brain damaged gladiator.

 

Aaaand now I can see him taking a real shine to that nice Corax boy.

[Ace Debonair]

The way I read that originally put the idea in my head of Ferrous and Lorgar starting a fight on Terra.

I immediately pictured the Emperor going ''Damn it, not again ''.

But yeah, if we go with the order I posted Corax is going to be the first Primarch that the Emperor finds that turned out more or less according to plan.

Well, close enough, anyway.

[Conn Eremon]

If you revert Leman and Jonson's to your first changed list, then swap them, I'd be cool with it.

 

Hadn't thought of Leman stealing Bron's ship and being found before Bron.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I'm really thinking I should give Anubis a nickname/moniker, not sure what though, the only idea I can think is possibly "The Hospitillar".
I have also been able to read the Salamanders section in Massacre, so I'm trying to think of some ways to work that in, possibly having the title "Lord protector" Being used, referring to lordship over planets near Prospero, a replacement instead of Captain/chapter master, or some kind of librarius position for once focused on protecting his brother librarians and marines from the perils of the warp, gaining a daemon hunting role as the heresy unfolds as well possibly.

[Conn Eremon]

Considering "Lord Protector" was a prevalent title in the canon Nocturnean Legion, I'd be cool with that.

 

Now that I'm on my break, I'll respond more thoroughly the to Discovery order:

 

First things first, I thought we were fine with the canon list remaining the same for us. First Cthonia, then Fenris, so forth. But I'm cool with us changing it up a bit. My changes in italics.

 

1) Alpharius and Omegon

Definitely still want this to be a thing.

2) Lorgar 'Cleftjaw'

I am cool with Lorgar being second-found

3) =][= REDACTED =][=

4) Lanista Corax / Ferrous Mordrax

We need a depiction of this encounter, stat

5) Perturabo

Maybe push Perturabo down some, or keep the order and make a note that there was a rather large time gap between third and fourth.

6) Fulgrim Dragonslayer

7) Jonson the Palpatine

I want Jonson to be more entrenched, and close enough to be a contender for the Warmaster title, to explain why he is chosen as the target of Corax's first strike

8) Adra'Melek

9) Angron

10) Anubis

11) Leman Barbedor

Just a basic swap of Leman and Dorn so I can get '11' :p

12)  Rogal Dorn the Haunted

13) Konrad Dominus

14) Magnus the Red-Maned

15) Roboute Barabbas

16) Sanguinius

17) =][= REDACTED =][=

18) Lasartine Bron

19) Lupercal

 

To refresh Ace's memory on Leman's discovery, he's supposed to be found early. The Emperor apparently foresaw it, and launched his Legion a couple decades before it would be, much like he does in canon with the Alpha Legion. Unfortunately, the fateful encounter doesn't occur at the alloted hour. But signs of his passing are found. the VI Legion turn into forerunners, alongside Rogue Trader Militants, seeking clues of their Primogenitor and his whereabouts. They are unable to catch up to him and his fleet, and never even see anything more than the aftermath they leave behind. For a long time, I put forth over a century, but it could be shortened a bit. At least almost a century. Anyway, they don't find him. Lupercal does, on accident. Sees a ship Bron describes as one he lost long ago.

 

Anyway, we can keep that, but change it up a bit. Leman is found before Bron, Leman hides the Phalanx when Bron is discovered (probably thinking "Wait, that was kin?  . . . Good thing I never showed my face!"), Leman encounters Lupercal's ships around Liberation, discovering the last Primarch. Lupercal sees the Phalanx, and when he speaks with Bron, recalls that it sounds a lot like Leman's ship. Bron accuses Leman, Leman goes "Whaaa? Space Hulk bro. Totally destroyed already, though. Total bummer." And everything proceeds accordingly.

[Brother Heinrich]

If you guys like Konrad Dominus then I'm cool with it. I like the order as well, I figure Lanista Corax and a couple other future traitors will be present when they find him so that he can spout off his iconic line about them being no brothers of his.