Alternate Heresy Community Project

[Aqui]

When I said an in universe joke, I meant like the rumor that the canon XIII have such high numbers because they have all of the Lost Legion survivors. Something that some people say, nut isn't actually a thing.

Like Jonson being the Jackal. Technically, only Angron is even aware of that nickname, and would use it as an insult. Others might be dimly aware and that is it.

As for Cthonia/Olympia, it's between you two. So long as you two come up with something both of you like. Though I will point out that Wade has three Legions, and can make a concession for someone who doesn't have three, MR. GREEDYHANDS.

Not that a concession needs to be made, just that it could. Whatever you two decide.

Aquilanus, how do you feel about the current Signus Affair? Is that something you want to keep as is or modify, or would you rather come up with something else? Aside from the home world thing, what you want to do with Signus is the only thing I need finalized on the Twins part. Don't need the details of it, just a predilection towards keeping/modifying it or getting rid of it, for the purposes of the summary posts that will start off the new thread.

I'm okay with whatever Wade decides. If he wants Cthonia, then by all means However, I'm currently trying to bring up the details about a Signus affair and my brain has let me down, so I'm going to re-read the info you sent me in PM in case I'm just being dense Will get back you in a bit unless someone can just summarise in a few sentences what it is, so I can give you a decision straight away

[Conn Eremon]

I knew there was four, and went through the list like twice and could only remember three. Funny thing is, I think I hit on all four as I went through, so maybe I just can't count.

[Ace Debonair]

Just for clarification. It's the Infernal Guard. I've switched between the two here and there but we've settled on Guard.

Roger that.

In defence of my last post, I refuse to learn my lesson and keep posting way after my bedtime, hence all the mistakes.

EDIT:

Also, welcome to the thread Aquilanus.

And a quick question - how do the Ouroboros Legion prefer to fight?

Like the canon Iron Warriors, the canon Alpha Legion, or do they draw inspiration from another source?

[Conn Eremon]

When I said an in universe joke, I meant like the rumor that the canon XIII have such high numbers because they have all of the Lost Legion survivors. Something that some people say, nut isn't actually a thing.

Like Jonson being the Jackal. Technically, only Angron is even aware of that nickname, and would use it as an insult. Others might be dimly aware and that is it.

As for Cthonia/Olympia, it's between you two. So long as you two come up with something both of you like. Though I will point out that Wade has three Legions, and can make a concession for someone who doesn't have three, MR. GREEDYHANDS.

Not that a concession needs to be made, just that it could. Whatever you two decide.

Aquilanus, how do you feel about the current Signus Affair? Is that something you want to keep as is or modify, or would you rather come up with something else? Aside from the home world thing, what you want to do with Signus is the only thing I need finalized on the Twins part. Don't need the details of it, just a predilection towards keeping/modifying it or getting rid of it, for the purposes of the summary posts that will start off the new thread.

I'm okay with whatever Wade decides. If he wants Cthonia, then by all means However, I'm currently trying to bring up the details about a Signus affair and my brain has let me down, so I'm going to re-read the info you sent me in PM in case I'm just being dense Will get back you in a bit unless someone can just summarise in a few sentences what it is, so I can give you a decision straight away

Twins head into Signus, and are attacked on all sides by various daemon breeds. One of them takes the opportunity to all-out attack his brother. The aggressor falls to Chaos, becoming an ally of the daemonic forces that trap them. Though devastating, the other does eventually get free.

Who turns is up to you, and who dies, or doesn't die, as well.

[Aqui]

Having read that, that would fit in with what I have in mind quite well Just need to add a few things.

[Aqui]

Just for clarification. It's the Infernal Guard. I've switched between the two here and there but we've settled on Guard.

Roger that.

In defence of my last post, I refuse to learn my lesson and keep posting way after my bedtime, hence all the mistakes.

EDIT:

Also, welcome to the thread Aquilanus.

And a quick question - how do the Ouroboros Legion prefer to fight?

Like the canon Iron Warriors, the canon Alpha Legion, or do they draw inspiration from another source?

Whoops! Hadn't seen this.

I'm not sure. I originally thought of the Legion as being both the Iron Warriors and the Fists in that one specialises in knocking things down, the other building. I'm still inclined to that, but having read a few things, I might try to give them a shade of their Contemporary counterparts...

[Conn Eremon]

Perhaps the general sense is the same, with one concentrating on fortifying and the other on destabilizing. Only, the manner in which they do is more than just for siegecraft or urban warfare. Part of their original lore is that their need to prove themselves is expressed in their dramatic victories, which we now know is set up through subterfuge and misdirection. Perhaps the canon feud between the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists is also in your twins, and the need to prove themselves is an obsession to outdo the other.

 

I didn't get around to editing anything last night, as I found a stray cat that I may end up adopting. Rest of the week I should really prepare for my first test since returning to college, so don't expect anything major until next week. Please berate me if I end up procrastinating on it to do something here.

[Aqui]

Perhaps the general sense is the same, with one concentrating on fortifying and the other on destabilizing. Only, the manner in which they do is more than just for siegecraft or urban warfare. Part of their original lore is that their need to prove themselves is expressed in their dramatic victories, which we now know is set up through subterfuge and misdirection. Perhaps the canon feud between the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists is also in your twins, and the need to prove themselves is an obsession to outdo the other.

 

I didn't get around to editing anything last night, as I found a stray cat that I may end up adopting. Rest of the week I should really prepare for my first test since returning to college, so don't expect anything major until next week. Please berate me if I end up procrastinating on it to do something here.

Since the last post, I've decided to have the IW/Fists vibe for them, but have Principio as the one that falls. Etiamnus, whilst being the "destroyer" accepts his destiny without any rancour, whilst Principio envisioned himself as being a master craftsman, an artisan who would create monuments the likes of which the Imperium has never seen, but is reduced to building fortresses. The artist streak starts to eat away at him, frustration growing and growing.

 

List of events leading to Heresy:

Ouroboros Legion pacify local systems into compliance.

Principio discovers a data slate containing a message from Dammekos. He keeps this from his twin, initially leaving the data alone. Eventually, Principio's curiosity gets the better of him and he views the slates contents. The information within brings about a change in him (first step to damnation - not sure of the specifics yet), but keeps the appearance of remaining loyal. Etiamnus notices a subtle change in his twin, but rationalises it as an adaption to having to build fortifications rather than works of art.

Legion is then ordered to Signus. To better contain the situation, the Twins take fully half of the Legion each. Whilst his brother is distracted, Principio finally accesses a portion of the data slate denied to him. It gives him an insight into the nature of Chaos, further corrupting his soul. When the Daemonic incursion intensifies, he decides to parley with the Daemons rather than attack, perhaps they whisper a chance for him to attain his dream (but warp his mind in doing so). When Etiamnus realises that Principio's advance has halted, he goes to investigate. Seeing his brother so changed, he realises that he has been betrayed. Amidst the carnage going on, they fight, both weeping as they do so. Principio weeps for his failure to bring his brother over similar thinking. Etiamnus weeps because he can see how damned Principio has become.

Conclusion of the battle - Principio is victorious, but in the aftermath there is no sign of Etiamnus' body. Etiamnus' half of the Legion fights desperately to escape losing a significant portion of its strength. Principio then strikes all feelings for his twin and his other brothers at large. Rallying to the banner of an unknown Chaos power (Malal or some other malcontent), he returns to Olympia and shapes it to his own twisted designs. The local system is effectively "blacked out" - no one knows anything about what lies within. Any and all investigations to establish facts fail.

 

Loyalist portion resort to becoming a fleet based force, taking centuries to recover. Rumours of the fallen Primarch's survival abound, but firmly denied by them. Their speciality for destroying enemy fortifications means that the Legion is split into smaller groups (kinda like the Black Templar crusades?) and follow the other Legions as a supporting task force.

 

Not sure of the names that the two portion of the Legion take afterwards yet though.

[Wade Garrett]

Returning to the Minotaurs:

 

The biggest difference I see between them and the fallen Emperor's Children is that while the EC mouth a lot of platitudes about seeking perfection, in practice that means "One round of upgrades from Fabius, then frolicking about indulging in directionless hedonism and sadism".

 

The Minotaurs take a different approach. The blood flows in the fighting pits as augmented and altered Legionaries are pitted against each other, but it's more than pride and a showing off one's skills...the winners become templates for new generations of recruits.

 

As the Crusade (and their degeneration) continues, captured xenos and conjured demons are likewise thrown in with those testing themselves. It's all part of the process of eliminating weakness in their ranks.

 

I also had the idea that to make up for their losses, they'd begin implanting modified Butcher's Nails in captured xenos (orkz, armbulls, etc) and using them as suicide shock troops, but I understand some people had problems with this.

 

As an alternative, I submit that the X begin to make heavy use of conjured daemons, but not even the servants of the Dark Prince are above the attentions of the Legion's Chirumeks.

 

Daemonettes are outfitted with rune engraved bionic implants (if there are any Magic: The Gathering Fans among us, imagine Phyrexian angels and you'll have an idea of the end result).

 

Some of these beings are forcibly entrapped and altered, while others are so starved for new sensations they willingly submit to the ritual augmentations.

[Ace Debonair]

Hmm.

That dataslate is going to have to be seriously compelling to make a Primarch pick daemons over his own brother.

 

Perhaps Sanguinius or one (or more) of the other silver-tongued Primarchs can also stoke the fires of their rivalry, adding some more weight to Principio's decision?

 

Heck, if they side with Corax (believing, as many initially do, that they are the real loyalists for doing so), then Corax could also act to turn the two against each other once he decides they're likely to defect.

 

Hell, you could have Corax deliberately swaying Principio as soon as he realises Principio feels inferior to Etiamnus.

"I've always known you were the superior one, Principio. Strong enough to stand on your own, and brave enough to do what must be done..."

[Aqui]

Returning to the Minotaurs:

The biggest difference I see between them and the fallen Emperor's Children is that while the EC mouth a lot of platitudes about seeking perfection, in practice that means "One round of upgrades from Fabius, then frolicking about indulging in directionless hedonism and sadism".

The Minotaurs take a different approach. The blood flows in the fighting pits as augmented and altered Legionaries are pitted against each other, but it's more than pride and a showing off one's skills...the winners become templates for new generations of recruits.

As the Crusade (and their degeneration) continues, captured xenos and conjured demons are likewise thrown in with those testing themselves. It's all part of the process of eliminating weakness in their ranks.

I also had the idea that to make up for their losses, they'd begin implanting modified Butcher's Nails in captured xenos (orkz, armbulls, etc) and using them as suicide shock troops, but I understand some people had problems with this.

As an alternative, I submit that the X begin to make heavy use of conjured daemons, but not even the servants of the Dark Prince are above the attentions of the Legion's Chirumeks.

Daemonettes are outfitted with rune engraved bionic implants (if there are any Magic: The Gathering Fans among us, imagine Phyrexian angels and you'll have an idea of the end result).

Some of these beings are forcibly entrapped and altered, while others are so starved for new sensations they willingly submit to the ritual augmentations.

I've never been one for MtG but the Phyrexian Angels sound rather good I do like the idea of an enforced "Survival of the fittest" vibe.

Hmm.

That dataslate is going to have to be seriously compelling to make a Primarch pick daemons over his own brother.

And something I'm struggling with. I added it mainly as I wanted to tie up the loose end that is Dammekos. I'm not fixed on it, however. But...

Perhaps Sanguinius or one (or more) of the other silver-tongued Primarchs can also stoke the fires of their rivalry, adding some more weight to Principio's decision?

Heck, if they side with Corax (believing, as many initially do, that they are the real loyalists for doing so), then Corax could also act to turn the two against each other once he decides they're likely to defect.

Hell, you could have Corax deliberately swaying Principio as soon as he realises Principio feels inferior to Etiamnus.

"I've always known you were the superior one, Principio. Strong enough to stand on your own, and brave enough to do what must be done..."

Having two other Primarchs telling him what he "needed" to hear would definitely weaken the formerly strong bond between him and Etiamnus.

[Conn Eremon]

Having it be Principio on Codex's side lends some legitimacy to his authority, if he is the less destructive brother, at least at that time.

 

As for names, if the loyalist brother is killed, maybe his faction renames themselves the Hydra Legion. Cut off one head, more take its place. Kind of fits with the Ouroboros theme, but it might be too obvious a nod to canon.

[Ace Debonair]

Depending on how open the rivalry is between the brothers, Principio's Legion could rename themselves the Alpha Legion as a permanent boast of how their Primarch was the Superior Twin.

Or, of course, Etiamnus' followers could use the name out of sheer defiance to spite and their once-Primarch.

But again, that might hew a little closely to Canon.

Also I could see Jonson raising an eyebrow at the choice of name.

[Aqui]

Depending on how open the rivalry is between the brothers, Principio's Legion could rename themselves the Alpha Legion as a permanent boast of how their Primarch was the Superior Twin.

Or, of course, Etiamnus' followers could use the name out of sheer defiance to spite and their once-Primarch.

But again, that might hew a little closely to Canon.

Also I could see Jonson raising an eyebrow at the choice of name.

That wasn't lost on me either

Here is a little something that will hopefully add a little flesh to the skeleton of Principio:

"You look troubled, brother."

Principio cast his tired eyes at the holscreen. Cast in a green hue, Corax gazed at him, taking every nuance of his stance.

"What ails you?"

Principio wanted to say something, to unburden himself of everything he felt, or didn't feel. All that time ago, when the Emperor himself had visited Olympia, he spoke of a glorious future, of an Imperium of Man that would stretch out beyond the confines of this Galaxy. One that required his ability to build and his twins ability to destroy.

Etiamnus had taken upon this great task with gusto, his jovial manner grating on Principio's nerves more and more. His own abilities, an instinctive knack of creating buildings as works of art was neglected, the pressing need for edifices of war greater and greater.

It was not how it was supposed to be.

"Nothing, brother," Principio replied distractedly, not lost upon the Warmaster.

"Come, come now. This is not the demeanour of the Imperium's greatest architect! I heard your latest creation was vital in securing victory at [insert planet/battle]. You are to be lauded."

"Indeed? To be lauded for creating such crude monstrosities?!" the outburst was what Corax had hoped for. The cracks in the dam, the hair line fracture in the strongest bond of all of the Primarch brothers. It would not need a sledgehammer after all...

"A necessary evil, brother. Remember, the faster we unite the galaxy under the rule of humanity, the faster we can create a utopia for us all to live in. I will need you for that. It is a task that will truly be a test of your superior skills." A simple word that, spoken with no inflection or gravitas, but Principio pounced on it, hungry for adulation or vindication.

"Our brother Sanguinius has need of your services. He is having some...complications. It would be most benficial if you could direct your attention there. I'm sure he would be most appreciative. Corax out."

Principio stared at the now frozen image of his brother. Etiamnus was currently tearing down a particularly hideous structure half a system away. Etiamnus. The more he thought about his twin, the more he became unsettled. He was...jealous and that thought was painful. He wished no ill towards him, but still.

Turning from the holviewer, he sat heavily at a slanted desk. Picking up a hol scribe, he set to work.

Hideous. Truly hideous.

[Nomus Sardauk]

Returning to the Minotaurs:

 

The biggest difference I see between them and the fallen Emperor's Children is that while the EC mouth a lot of platitudes about seeking perfection, in practice that means "One round of upgrades from Fabius, then frolicking about indulging in directionless hedonism and sadism".

 

The Minotaurs take a different approach. The blood flows in the fighting pits as augmented and altered Legionaries are pitted against each other, but it's more than pride and a showing off one's skills...the winners become templates for new generations of recruits.

 

As the Crusade (and their degeneration) continues, captured xenos and conjured demons are likewise thrown in with those testing themselves. It's all part of the process of eliminating weakness in their ranks.

 

I also had the idea that to make up for their losses, they'd begin implanting modified Butcher's Nails in captured xenos (orkz, armbulls, etc) and using them as suicide shock troops, but I understand some people had problems with this.

 

As an alternative, I submit that the X begin to make heavy use of conjured daemons, but not even the servants of the Dark Prince are above the attentions of the Legion's Chirumeks.

 

Daemonettes are outfitted with rune engraved bionic implants (if there are any Magic: The Gathering Fans among us, imagine Phyrexian angels and you'll have an idea of the end result).

 

Some of these beings are forcibly entrapped and altered, while others are so starved for new sensations they willingly submit to the ritual augmentations.

I've never really understood how the Minotaurs would fall to Slaanesh, considering they're obsessed with replacing every non-essential piece of flesh with unfeeling machinery.

 

I can't help but think if a Minotaur started hearing whispers in his head or becoming overly attached to his meat sensations he'd probably be relieved of his breathing priviges by the Apothecaries. :/

[Wade Garrett]

Exactly. His MEAT sensations.

 

How can the flesh-feeling of "anger" compare to the exquisite rages wrought by the iron of the Butcher's Nails?

 

How can the sensations offered by feeble mortal eyes and ears compare with the universe of sounds and colors you can experience with audio/visual auspex sensors plugged directly into your brain?

[Conn Eremon]

Also remember, Slaanesh isn't all about physical feelings. That is just an aspect that gets disproportionate attention, like Tzeentch and magic. The sniper that dedicates his entire existence to the setup of that perfect kill shot, can be a Slaaneshi. Sex and drugs need not apply.

[Conn Eremon]

I found Principio's meaning, and it's about what you would assume for something that sounds like, and is probably the origin of, "principal." But the closest I could find about Etiamnus was 'etiam nus,' loosely 'even less.' Did you name them "Greater" and "Lesser"? If so, g'dang. No wonder one of them develops a complex.

[Aqui]

I found Principio's meaning, and it's about what you would assume for something that sounds like, and is probably the origin of, "principal." But the closest I could find about Etiamnus was 'etiam nus,' loosely 'even less.' Did you name them "Greater" and "Lesser"? If so, g'dang. No wonder one of them develops a complex.

I can't remember exactly how I came to those names to be honest (rather worrying as it was only a few days ago ) I think I wanted "first" and "last" in keeping with the Oroboros theme, but I think I'll keep the names as they stand now I quite like the irony that Etiamnus is the "greater" in the end...

If what I have so far fits with things, I'll start adding in more stuff for their over all story. I would like to have them interact with Sanguinius and Corax more, so that they make the cracks in their relationship wider.

[Conn Eremon]

In canon, Signus was meant to take Sanguinius for Horus. Lorgar was against it. I think, it might have been the other way around.

 

So I can see Corax telling his angelic minion guy, "You, angelic minion guy. I want the Olympian duo on my side. Make it happen, pretty boy."

 

Sanguinius, on the other hand, says sure and goes off to make a death trap that will kill off the whole Legion. He then approaches Principio and lets him in on the plan. "Ho there, Liquidus Serpenta! Now, I know you have heard about some of the goings-on that have been going on lately. Turns out, our glorious leader wants to deliver a message, and he wants your Legion to be the messenger. He wants you out, as dead as the Haunted boys. But the truth is, he only wants that because of Etiamnus. Yeah, I know, I growl when I hear his name too. Jesus, you're troubled. Hm? Oh, nothing. Anywho! He put me in charge of making it happen. I think we can come up with an even better conclusion. What better message than to say the Ouroboros Legion went into the grinder with two Primarchs and divided ideals, but left with a single Primarch, of singular purpose. The Warmaster's purpose."

 

 

 

Another thing that would be cool to think about is your loyalist group's fate after the Heresy. The Legions divide into Successors, but there is no uniformity. The First Legion Cohorts are half-Chapters. Imperial Hound Squadrons are more ships than Marines. Others might have Successors bigger than canon Chapters.

 

But you know. Do they go along with Jonson's reforms without issue? Are they among the dissenters, forced by peer pressure? Do they more side with Angron than Jonson? Or are they wildly independent? What is the general nature and size of their Successors?

[Aqui]

In canon, Signus was meant to take Sanguinius for Horus. Lorgar was against it. I think, it might have been the other way around.

So I can see Corax telling his angelic minion guy, "You, angelic minion guy. I want the Olympian duo on my side. Make it happen, pretty boy."

Sanguinius, on the other hand, says sure and goes off to make a death trap that will kill off the whole Legion. He then approaches Principio and lets him in on the plan. "Ho there, Liquidus Serpenta! Now, I know you have heard about some of the goings-on that have been going on lately. Turns out, our glorious leader wants to deliver a message, and he wants your Legion to be the messenger. He wants you out, as dead as the Haunted boys. But the truth is, he only wants that because of Etiamnus. Yeah, I know, I growl when I hear his name too. Jesus, you're troubled. Hm? Oh, nothing. Anywho! He put me in charge of making it happen. I think we can come up with an even better conclusion. What better message than to say the Ouroboros Legion went into the grinder with two Primarchs and divided ideals, but left with a single Primarch, of singular purpose. The Warmaster's purpose."

I can certainly see a way of realising the above. It'll take a bit to flesh it out, but that's the general way I want it to go

Another thing that would be cool to think about is your loyalist group's fate after the Heresy. The Legions divide into Successors, but there is no uniformity. The First Legion Cohorts are half-Chapters. Imperial Hound Squadrons are more ships than Marines. Others might have Successors bigger than canon Chapters.

But you know. Do they go along with Jonson's reforms without issue? Are they among the dissenters, forced by peer pressure? Do they more side with Angron than Jonson? Or are they wildly independent? What is the general nature and size of their Successors?

I think that the remnants of the Loyalists should be collectively known as the Hydra Legion to keep in with the "lob one head off..." vibe, but each splinter group should be a "cell" and have their own name and customs. I haven't thought about the sizes, but if I recall, the Alpha Legion in "true" canon are not numerous in size, so I'd probably follow that (as in each cell would vary between 200-500 maximum) As a twist, I think perhaps they are divided by Angrons and Jonsons' ideals and tend to avoid each other, feeling that they should strive to live up to their fathers (Etiamnus) standards in their own way. I could work in that despite their differences, every cell deny fervently the rumours of his survival (perhaps he is still alive and is working in secret to slowly reunite his Legion again - which would tie into the Canon Legions predilection for stealth and subterfuge)

In any case, the traitor portion of the Legion should remain significantly larger than the loyalist faction. I've also decided that the traitors should be known as the Cerberus Legion (not only as a homage to Heathens, but that Cerberus was a sibling to the Hydra)

[Conn Eremon]

Looks legit.

[Ace Debonair]

So, the next obvious question is this: prior to Signus, how pronounced is the rivalry between Principio and Etiamnus?

 

Would the other legions know about it?

Are there clear divisions between the followers of each Primarch in their own legion?

 

Because if we're looking to make it public knowledge, then that could lead to some very interesting interactions with the other Primarchs, and really drive the rivalry's intensity up a notch.

 

Example:

 

Exia Prime was crumbling. The insurgents' defences were all but shattered, and the Ouroboros Legion encircled their prey, ready to eradicate them. Alongside them, the Astral Wolves, ever shrewd, watched for any opportunity to further weaken their enemies before striking. Before the capital city of Mavon, Principio and Etiamnus laid their plans to strike the city from two sides, forcing them to further divide their defences.

 

"We'll have the best opportunity to strike the enemy and breach their walls if we set up... our units... here." Principio mused, pointing at a ridge on his map, glancing at his Twin. Etiamnus nodded approval, and signalled his Captains. They saluted him and immediately set about marshalling the troops. Principio watched them, lost in thought, until a familiar voice sounded behind him.

 

"You hesitated."

 

Principio turned to see Lupercal stood behind him, looking at him appraisingly.

 

"What?" Principio waved a hand impatiently. "I was just contemplating the best approach."

 

"A leader should be certain at all times." Lupercal insisted. "You need to have more confidence in your actions, like Etiamnus does."

 

"That's not fair," Principio snarled. "I wasn't meant for this endless war, like he was. I'm-"

 

"You're still one of us." Lupercal sighed, and clapped a weighty hand on his brother's shoulder. "And you'll be free to pursue your dreams once the Crusade is over, like the rest of us. But for now we must be warriors. Let's prove your conviction in the coming battle, brother."

 

The conquest of Exia Prime went smoothly, and Lupercal was quick to praise Principio's bravery and cunning in equal measure in the aftermath. But it was the Liberator's earlier words that haunted Principio.

 

I'm every bit as good a leader as my brothers, he thought to himself, as Lupercal and Etiamnus raised their weapons in victory. And I'll prove it to them, one day.

[Wade Garrett]

My only issue is that we now have three "Mah SELF ESTEEM ISSUES!" Primarchs: Angron, Fulgrim, and Principio, which is one too many.

 

To show that I am a reasonable, non Greedyhands sort of person, contrary to the assertions of certain others, I will now provide ceramite and adamantite reinforcements to Angron's spinal cord, thus resolving the issue.

[Ace Debonair]

Angron had self-esteem issues?

I was under the impression he was just worried about becoming a mindless rage-monster.

 

EDIT:

Never mind, I suddenly follow. Curse my delayed-action brain for not keeping up with me!