[HH1.0] Iron Hands Tactics

[Slips]

Its hard to go wrong with Darkfire Lances. 2 Shots S7 Ap2 each with a few other rules and pretty long range makes them hard to beat if only for the cost.

[Trydragon]

If you Got plenty of Anti tank Just Stick the Mauler Bolt Cannon it a Beast of an Anti MEQ gun I give them the Enhanced Targeting Array and swap some of the Bolt Guns for Flamers in my Experience it better to charge the Castellax then get charged by them the Flamers will give you a Nice Over watch Bonuse.

[nightwrench]

Sadly you cannot use a Terminator command Squad with Ferrus. Only Horus and Perturabo are equipped with Termunator Armour.

 

And randommarine, chap said he'd like to play without crutching on a spartan.

 

If your opponents are, pick up a 6x graviton cannons. Flat out nopes Spartans and their only counter to it is to take more or loiter behind cover while you spam difficult terrain pie plates everywhere.

 

If you are set on Ferrus and Gorgons these don't fit in a Dreadvlaw, you need a Kharybdis. Which are amazing but you are sinking 860pts into basocally notSpartan Spartan. They do the same thing (Turn 2 assault) trading Graviton weakness for weakness vs mass AA (2 Deredeo's can be a pain).

 

Typhons are also better against most all comers and a S10 7" AP1 Ignores cover plate is ace. At 370pts with armoured ceramite and running blessed autosimulcra (don't outflank) it is pretty resilient.

 

Some mechanicum allies spamming tehhpriests with servitors turn it into a firebase bar none (well, short of a Warhound anyway).

 

Combining Grav spam with a typhon just nopes many death stars. With Sallies many run something like a Firedrake doomstar in a spartan. Grav kills spartan, firedrakes debus, get splatted by typhon instagibbing those failing their save. They might have move through cover but the Rite sucks which gives that. The unit is now moving 1d6" a turn with no shooting. Typhon turns attention to other scoring units which are faster amd actually having impact on the game.

 

Dependent on how much money the other players have to spend on evolving their tactics this might be less fun for your opponents, especially those who don't have access to Drop Pod based rules without needing to change the entire list.

 

Thank you all for the feedback. 

 

My wish list is also going to fill out my tournament list for Adepticon in April.  I have 15 legs needing chest and arms which I failed to mention and I am planning to get 15 IH chests when I get the shoulder pads.  I have considered that a sunk cost at this point and already budgeted that purchase a while ago. 

 

I like the idea of a small subset of mechanicum allies and I have wanted to move into that realm.  My last game I had to deal with three grav cannons pinging the typhon and I also learned deathshroud get melta bombs...his big problem was 3 grav cannons could not kill the typhon fast enough and my rapiers did work against his kheres AC contemptors and orth out dualed his Sicaran and vindi laser destroyer.  He pumped an entire army of shooting at 2500 points into my typhon and with cover and night fighting did 2-3 hull points. 

 

I will have 30 tac marines and 20 breachers plus the 5 heavy/support squad guys.  I plan to magnitize so I can have them do any 5 weapons that needs to be worked into the list.

 

I think I am set on the Typhon in my 2k tournament list.  My big tactic question is 10 man rhino squads or a 15ish tac squads with an apoth and an attached forge lord tank either on a bike or in cata armor or one rhino squad and one large squad?

 

I have thought about picking up a proteus or two.

 

Is the dreadclaw that viable?  It scares me not having armored ceramite or I plain just missed it in the rules.

 

We have a guy building a RG Decapitating Strike list and I am pretty sure the IW player is planning to spam Perturbo with Tyrant Terms.

 

 

Hey look, now it's me asking for the advice. IS THE WORLD ON ITS HEAD?!

 

*cough* I mean.

 

So! I want some Castellax to go with my Praevian, but I dunno what gear to give them. My usual lists have decent anti-tank, mainly in the form of multiple Sicarans, so should I just stick with basic big guns instead of the Darkfire? The Praevian himself has a power fist, artificer armour, boarding shield and combi-flamer. When I've got extra points, a void shield harness.

 

I have thought long and hard about how to kit them out.  Personally I say go Siege Wreckers.  STR 10 AP1 or 2 is brutal on a unit that his mid-board control.  Give the pravian a boarding shield and a combi-flamer (counter charge, give the bots PE when assaulted).  They would be my answer to knights, drakes and other annoying crap.  With Ferrus they would get FNP as well. 

[helterskelter]

A question I pose to my soon to be brothers, can this be justified:

Forgelord: jet bike, refractor field, power maul, rad nades, cyber familiar, graviton gun, conversion beamer = 230

 

2+ 4++ pseudo T6 from shooting, rad nades to make people t3 for bopping on the bonce with the maul, graviton and conversion beamer for making a right royal mess of things from a distance on a relentless platform? Too evil? Largely pointless?

[Slips]

Take the Graviton Gauntlet relic for 3 more grav shots in Flamer Template form.

 

Have fun stripping 4 HPs on your own possibly.

[Raktra]

Power maul? Naff off, power fist. That plus the servo arm means you're swinging like a Praetor. Forge Lords are little combat monsters.

[helterskelter]

No servo arm due to conversion beamer, isn't maul +2 str strike at initiative, so combined with the rad it means you're ID'ING with your attacks on the charge. Though if you don't take the beamer and take the grav glove instead there'd still be the servo arm too. Decisions decisions

[Hesh Kadesh]

You're id'ing nothing without ap2. Didn't think you could make more than one shooting attack unless MC, so Grav Gun and Gauntlet is wasted. Edited November 9, 2015 by Hesh Kadesh

[Caillum]

^^ This. Only 1 shooting attack, except for Pistol-type weapons. Like the idea though! Go for a power fist and servo-arm; you'll be ID'ing Thallax or Stone Gauntlet Breachers with that setup!

 

Gauntlet will strip HP better than anything else, so that's a better choice.

[helterskelter]

Might be only one shooting attack but it's about the profiles, the beamer allows for an extreme range shot that does the business, on a mobile platform the extreme range can be maintained. Secondary to this the grav fist or gun is for when things get close and need dealing with. No point firing a beamer that close anyway and hopefully by the time something gets that close to the forge Lord the beamer has made back it's 25 points. Was my reasoning anyway. And it only takes one hesh. It only takes one. Though with the saves available I can see why taking a power fist is viable. Should survive theoretically long enough to swing it

[nightwrench]

A question I pose to my soon to be brothers, can this be justified:

Forgelord: jet bike, refractor field, power maul, rad nades, cyber familiar, graviton gun, conversion beamer = 230

 

2+ 4++ pseudo T6 from shooting, rad nades to make people t3 for bopping on the bonce with the maul, graviton and conversion beamer for making a right royal mess of things from a distance on a relentless platform? Too evil? Largely pointless?

 

I believe rad grenade specifically says does not impact ID so even if you drop to T3 they are still t4 for ID.  It helps with power axes as they hit on a 2 and coupled with Mor they are 2+ with a reroll to wound.

 

You do not get any ability to shoot twice and you effectively have 3 weapons to choose, HB from the bike, conv beamer and the grav gun.  What is the purpose of the unit?

 

I personally like bike forge lords with grav guns to run around stripping random hull point and then charging with a MB or smacking with a servo arm.  The gaunt would be a fun option.

 

I

[Raktra]

Rads affect ID, it's the DG relic that doesn't.

[helterskelter]

The HB would rarely be used, if it was the best option vs squishy targets then groovy. Str 10 ap 1 long range beamer for shenanigans, for the early game, then things are gonna start getting close, so once the distance reduces would switch it up to put either some lovely grav bubbles about the place or this gauntlet for the 3x template option.

Then rad + desired weapon for combat, which is looking like power fist as per advice.

The point of this unit is that he is prepared for every stage of the game. He will always be in range on a regular board, plus being an Iron Hand he gets that lovely vs shooting bonus which makes him more survivable, and in combat T5 and his saves make his life a little more fun there.

On top of this if desperately needed he can zoom and fix something.

[Hesh Kadesh]

It is a lot of points which are doing nothing then.

 

A grav gun is fine on a jetbike/bike. It is a free HP stripped and limits enemy movement. Relentless AND short range with a 12" move mesh well.

 

Conv Beamer requires you to be sat half a table away and firing on a diagonal, but because it isn't barrage, has to be line of sight. It also means you need a Bodyguard. But that bodyguard is doing nothing. You have 35pts invested in a bike, 15 in a grav gun, and 20 in a pfist. That is 70pts spent on 'just in case'.

 

Would much rather a pair of Rhinos or 70pts of upgrades to make my ubits do exactly what they should.

[nightwrench]

Rads affect ID, it's the DG relic that doesn't.

Really?  I have to check my thin book when I get home today.  I thought it said it specifically didnt effect ID threshold.

 

If that is the case the Furious Charge, power axe vets with an attached forge lord or as DG would ID any marine and ignoring FNP on a squad would let you butcher your way through.

Edited November 10, 2015 by nightwrench

[Hesh Kadesh]

Most units with 450-500pts invested in would do alright i'd have thought.

 

Can't think of many units with 2 wounds that would require something like that that doesn't have an Invulnerable or at initiative ap3/rending

 

Death Shroud? d3 autohit s3 shreds are pretty damaging and 4++ saves. Firedrakes? 3++ saves and at initiative ap3. Gal vorbak? Ap3 anyway and have rending clws. Although I suopose it is better to charge them than it is to be charged by them.

[nightwrench]

Most units with 450-500pts invested in would do alright i'd have thought.

 

Can't think of many units with 2 wounds that would require something like that that doesn't have an Invulnerable or at initiative ap3/rending

 

Death Shroud? d3 autohit s3 shreds are pretty damaging and 4++ saves. Firedrakes? 3++ saves and at initiative ap3. Gal vorbak? Ap3 anyway and have rending clws. Although I suopose it is better to charge them than it is to be charged by them.

 

Death Shroud are not in cata armor only in standard TDA.  They only get 5++ in CC.  I would put chaff up front and you also are only being wounded on a 5+.  5 deathshrould is 10 hits and 5 wounds maybe you lose one maybe none with a 2+ save up front or fnp.  I do not think I have ever seen drakes fielded without TH or CF.  They are made to strike last with 2+ 3++ and 2W they are there to take care of other 2+ in the sally army.  Gol are T5 so you cannot ID them in this manner and they have 5++ and would still be t4 str 5 and striking first with rending hits.  They would be a tough out.  Butchers are another one.  They are a major pain but this would help to get rid of them. 

 

Another application is cutting through 20 man blob squads with an attach apoth.  Lets say they 80 shot over watch is on 4.25 wounds.  Then 19 attacks (assuming power axe on the sarg) 9.5 hit and 4.75 wounds.  So between overwatch and CCW you take 9 wounds and lost maybe 2 or 3 guys.  With the forge lord and apoth I assume you lose one wound or guy in this scenario.  If you have 6 power axes in the squad you will get 24 power axe attacks 12 hits and 10 wounds.  That is brutal and they would not get FNP.  It would be worse with Mor.  PE on this squad would be brutal and Mor could challenge the sarg and deal with him.  Mor would ID every wound with another FL with Rad.  Now I get it...it is a huge death star but even if you took more and didn't put him with the squad PE would be a good option on this squad. 

 

Just an alt tactical idea.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I know they have non-Cata, so, or else why would they overwatch? The S3 Shred is statistically more likely to wound (5% more likely, admittedly) than a flat 4+.

 

Just because most people run them in TH/SS Configuration doesn't mean it's their best. WS5 Power Swords mince units. I'm not seeing what makes them forced to strike last at all. Hitting on 3's, and potentially joined by a Forge Lord gives them Rad nades too, and they're striking first, hitting and killing on 3's. By the time you're in an assault with Butchers, they're already balls deep in your lines, having jumped out of a Spartan, Dreadclaw or Kharybdis.

 

Cutting through 20 Man Assault Squads with FNP is something that should be reserved for units which are a bit better at it; Medusa, Melta Preds, or Typhon. If your opponent is running 20 Man Tac Squads with Apothecaries, sit at 25" plus and laugh as they do nothing for 2 Turns while getting rained hell on by S8 Ap3. They have dipped upwards of 300pts into sitting on an objective and firing bolt guns.

 

9 Furious Charge Tac Squad, 5 Power Axes = 240pts

Forge Lord, Rad Nades, Power Axe = 110pts

Dreadclaw = 100pts

 

That's 450pts for a Second Turn Charge. Dreadclaw comes in Deep Strike and Hover Mode, Flat Outs over to where it needs to be (ish) and uses Jink to stay alive. Next turn, moves 6, deploys 6, assaults (no shooting, because no point in making it harder to reach) 2d6, average 7, into overwatch. 81 shots (Apoth has BP), 13.5 hits, 6.75 wounds, 2.25 dead. Unit Attacks, assuming Tac Squad hasn't upgraded to BP, CCW, and Bolter, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1.66 dead, 3.33 if BP+CCW. 5.583333 dead. Let's presume that you put the chaff in the way. That's 16 WS4 Attacks (8 hits, 6.67 dead) and 5 WS5 (3.33 hits, 2.77 dead). That's 9.444 dead. 

 

Morale is 6-7 to 0, so unit likely falls back, I5 vs I4 and Tac Squad must roll 2 higher than attackers to survive. In all likelihood, that's a dead Tac Squad. You are now balls deep in an enemy army with no support, and no chaff. 450pts to kill a single Tactical Squad? Which then gets nixed by half an army shooting at them. It's not like you have Fearless to keep you there, because you went for IDing units that don't really need it.

 

Alternatively, you could walk/run, and the unit doesn't arrive until turn 3 or even turn 4 (let alone having to traverse difficult terrain) all the while being plinked at by bolters with nothing better to shoot at.

 

Autek Mor; Preferred Enemy gets exactly the same response. Sure, you can have two such squads. It's one of the same problems I've found with expensive elite assault units that lack Invulnerables or 2+ Saves. A Palatine Blade squad, in particular, lead by Eidolon. It had the same effect. They rinsed anything they killed, but the return fire wiped them out.

 

Do enough damage to nix the squad after 2 rounds of combat. You want to force them to stay in an assault.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think its because you said deathshroud got a 4++ hesh

[Hesh Kadesh]

Ah, fat fingers typing quick! Good catch, sorry for chewing you out for that nightwrench 

Edited November 11, 2015 by Hesh Kadesh

[nightwrench]

Ah, fat fingers typing quick! Good catch, sorry for chewing you out for that nightwrench 

 

I figured you did I was commenting so others who read and didn't know you knew, knew that they were not in cata.  Wow I said that bad but I think it makes sense.

 

You are correct that squad would be sitting ducks and yes it would be better to probably limit the power axes down to a smaller number.  My whole thought was that it is effective and scoring and would have to be dealt with because it could remove another scoring threat the following turn.   My meta is very hth centric.  Everyone it seems has a CC death star be it 30k or 40k.  I am still trying to buck the trend and shoot them off of the board.

 

What are people's thoughts on medusa(s) vs a typhon?  Typhon is going to help remove the death star after it is out of the Spartan the medusa can potentially do both. 

[Slips]

Typhon is the best low for its pricepoint atm.

 

Medusae are solid too since you can use nuncios to shoot out of LoS and not suffer barrage downsides.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Slipstreams

[nightwrench]

Quick question to the group.

 

What are you thoughts/tactics to dealing with the Raven Guard decapitating strike?   With a high probability of them going first (siezing or the basic dice roll) is it basically deployment awareness?  I would assume most decap strike lists will have 2 Mon Deryth squads in rhinos, grav platforms a large blob to hold center stage and some distraction units (deep strike or outflank). 

[Memento Of Prospero]

Using HotG to outflank your vital parts will deny the alpha strike.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Play Deep Strike. What is the point in them going first if you are bringing on your dudes second in the places they aren't.

 

Or Outflank, but that basically gives you a definite place to go.