Corax:Soulforge (possible spoilers)

[amaze07]

Hi All,

 

This topic may have been done already, if so sorry,

 

But I recently finally got around to reading Corax:Soulforge, and being a big Raven Guard fan I can say I enjoyed it immensely, but why didnt Gav Thorpe write Corax in that way in Deliverance lost, it was a huge improvement upon that, I found DL boring and all over the place! let's just hope future RG Novels portray the RG like this, after getting beat down it's good to finally see them getting revenge etc...I want to see the bad guys actually start to feel the effects of the guerrilla  warfare the RG are doing behind there lines felt soon..and not just brushed off in unmeaning ways!

 

I just hope they play a more serious role in future stories! any one else got any thoughts on Soulforge and the future of the RG?

[[TA]Typher]

I haven't read Soulforge. I'm a little skeptical after reading Deliverance lost.

 

That book made Corax seem mentally challenged. The only other Primarch that has been written so poorly was Ferris Mannus in 'Fulgrim' and we saw what happened to him. Plus the Alpha Legion pulled off a plan that Dr. Evil from Austin powers would have passed on because it was too far fetched. Over all I'd say that I hated the book.

 

But, if soulforge remakes Corax into the superhuman gene-forged being a Primarch is suppose to be then I suppose I'll put it on my reading list. As much as I like Thorpe writing warhammer fantasy books and fluff, I'd have to say I haven't been that impressed with his HH books.

[SteelPaladin]

I was surprised at how much I liked Soulforge. A big step up from Deliverance Lost for sure, but then again DL was a truly dreadful read so...

 

Although the thing I liked the best about the book was the black on black cover and the black edged pages. I also thought the story lining the inside of the dust cover was a neat idea. I guess that I liked the physical aspects of the book more than the actual story though, so definitely a mixed bag.

[Emperor's Furor]

I think Deliverance Lost had a set path it had to take to get so much additional info but in doing so it made Corax seem like a complete numbnut. What annoyed me the most out of Deliverance Lost was at the end when Corax said he'd guessed all but one weren't who they were, I was like golly gee? Why not do something about it?

[Ashur]

I really wanted to like DL.

 

It could have been a very good book. I was expecting a very grim pessimistic story about the mutations caused to the new RG marines and the psychological trauma caused to Corax. Instead, by the end Corax sounded like an average human and not like a primarch. Too much information about a primarch kills the mistery.

 

But since you consider Soulforge an improvement, my faith may be restored.

[Conn Eremon]

As a super duper fan of the Raven Guard books, I was really looking forward to Deliverance Lost. And honestly, it was the first book I had read of that author, who had kinda slipped under my radar and was new to me. So I went into it thinking this was going to be all win for me.

 

Instead, I got a bad Alpha Legion book filled with Raven Guard stooges. I was immensely disappointed.

[Kol Saresk]

I wanted to read about clones. :(

[[TA]Typher]

I wanted to read about clones. :(

Spoiler: They turn on the jedi.

[Kol Saresk]

Typher" post="3520562" timestamp="1384334868"]

I wanted to read about clones.

Spoiler: They turn on the jedi.

Can't turn on that which was never loyal.

[Marshal Goderic]

Not trying to troll here, what did all of you dislike so much about DL? I loved it. Yes I read what has been said but I can't see how that really leads to the 'DL was a huge failure of a book'-ness that seems to be the pervasive attitude. Granted I'm an AL sympathizer but still, to me it seemed that the AL just did what they do best and mostly got the better of the RG. It's not supposed to be a 'look how these fools got fooled,' book/event IMO but how the RG recovered/didn't get wiped out like Horus et all planned. The legion plus primarch are reeling from a betrayal that destroyed the foundations of all they have worked for, are understandably discombobulated and the attitude I seem to be reading is, "Pfft, didn't see the AL coming, tools..."

 

or is the dissatisfaction just the bait-&-switch 'RG, haha, fooled ya it's a AL book!' irritation that I'm seeing?

 

thoughts, opinions?

 

*ducks* "NEOPHYTE BOB! NO THROWING THE MUTANT GENE-SEED!"

[Emperor's Furor]

I didn't hate it, but I didn't think Corax was very well done, the rest was ok, but Corax was to human for such a suspicious Primarch.

[Wade Garrett]

Explain to me why the Emperor kept the super secret method for making Astartes who were twice

as awesome as regular Astartes hidden in a magical maze he stole from JK Rowling instead of

using it to build his Legions.

 

Explain why Corax took every single shred of said tech off world instead of sharing some of it with Rogal Dorn.

 

Explain why Corax randomly decided to kill the last loyal Word Bearer in the galaxy. Even if you agree with the screaming crazy man that the Chaplain was evil, surely it would have been wiser to interrogate him instead of going "CORAX SMASH PUNY SPACE MARINE! RAAARRR!"

[[TA]Typher]

Explain to me why the Emperor kept the super secret method for making Astartes who were twice

as awesome as regular Astartes hidden in a magical maze he stole from JK Rowling instead of

using it to build his Legions.

 

Explain why Corax took every single shred of said tech off world instead of sharing some of it with Rogal Dorn.

 

Explain why Corax randomly decided to kill the last loyal Word Bearer in the galaxy. Even if you agree with the screaming crazy man that the Chaplain was evil, surely it would have been wiser to interrogate him instead of going "CORAX SMASH PUNY SPACE MARINE! RAAARRR!"

 

 

The maze was impossible to solve or survive without a level of intelligence that was beyond humankind. There was no way anyone, save a primarch or the Emperor himselve, could break into it

 

As for sharing.. Dorn's legion was still whole. Corax's was broken and shattered. He was basically no longer a military threat. Bolstering him back as fast as you could would be a big boon to your defenses. Granted... Deliverance Lost was a poor excuse for a HH novel, with Corax devolving into a window licking grot after solving the impossible puzzle. The whole plot was weak and poorly written, with the most precious substance in the universe guarded worse than a public toilet.

 

As for your third question.. I dunno. I agree it makes no sense.

[Wade Garrett]

You misunderstand my question. Why was the Emperor just sitting on this new and even better Marine making tech instead of swapping out the old inefficient way?

[[TA]Typher]

You misunderstand my question. Why was the Emperor just sitting on this new and even better Marine making tech instead of swapping out the old inefficient way?

 

Hmm.. I dunno. Maybe there was a finite amount. Or maybe the other substances that needed to be added to make other Primarchs was to hard to re-create. Like it required part of the Emperor's soul or maybe he had to wait to harvest the perfect soul to inhabit the immensely powerful bodies he created. Have you ever seen the original Robo-Cop, where they attach all the high-tech hardware on random people making them go nuts and kill every one. Then They use those same processes on Robo-Cop and everything works without making my psychotic. Perhaps it took just the right soul to work. The Emperor had 10's of thousands of years to find the rights ones.

 

Or, maybe the secret ingredient was Twinkies. We'll probably never know. I wouldn't over think it. If we fail to suspend disbelief on every aspect the story becomes hard to swallow in some parts. Also I think having a Legion of Primarchs would ruin the setting. Could you imagine the titanic forces that you'd need to fight them? Have you ever seen War-Z when they zombies climb over each other to scale the walls? Hordes of monsters superhuman beings working together would be hard to kill and impossible to stop. They would just climb over the imperial walls en mass and win in the span of 20min.

 

The whole series would be half a book long. LOL.

 

 

Also.. I watch too many movies.

[Conn Eremon]

Or maybe, like the Thunder Warriors, it is because there were flaws built into the Astartes that he desired them to have.

 

Since my post done got et, I'll reiterate it:

 

There is nothing wrong with the Raven Guard being granted a boon only for it to be poisoned. That's grimdark. There is nothing wrong with a Loyalist Legion being suprise! devastated by a Traitor Legion. That's grimdark.

 

What is bad is that the author was apparently incapable of pulling either of those off without dumbing one side down exceptionally low. One of the most retarded traps that bad authors get trapped in, that instead of showing one side as capable enough to succeed, they show the other side as too incapable to stop them. Deliverance Lost is a shining example of that trap. The Alpha Legion were not capable, they were not skillful or exemplary. The Raven Guard were just too dumb to figure it out.

 

That is what made this book so bad. It was like watching a sports game where one team was average and the other team hadn't slept in three days and were all wearing blinders.

[Kol Saresk]

*snip

Cormac mostly hit up the points I had with it, but I also feel the need to elaborate.

 

The premise is that the Alpha Legion are capable enough that they can infiltrate a Legion with no problem.

 

We do not see this. Instead we see people who are constantly blowing their cover by forgetting Raven Guard doctrine and mentality. But it's just overwritten as battle trauma by the very brothers who went through the exact same thing and didn't have a problem.

 

The premise is that the Raven Guard are so blinded by hate that they miss the small details. We do not see this.

 

Instead we see paranoia and distrust running rampant and allowing entire battleships to sail only a scant few meters right over the tops of their heads.

 

We see the premise that we're going to go back to the days following the Massacre that Corax was willing to do anything and everything to rebuild his Legion into a fighting force.

 

We sort of see that. Corax imposes limits and when things go wrong, instead of pushing forward like the IA articles gave the impression of, he stopped altogether. The hate and revilement that the Raven Guard were supposed to be filled with just... It ran hollow.

 

A lot of the premises just didn't pan out.

 

And apparently, the author wanted to get more than a few things across and didn't. For example, the scene where he talks to the Emperor and the Emperor says he only has 17 brothers and when asked about the other two, His face becomes covered in sorrow and he turns away from Corax, is apparently supposed to mean that the Emperor isn't too hopeful about finding the last two Primarchs.

 

There were a lot of great premises and ideas. They just didn't pan out.

[Conn Eremon]

For example, the scene where he talks to the Emperor and the Emperor says he only has 17 brothers and when asked about the other two, His face becomes covered in sorrow and he turns away from Corax, is apparently supposed to mean that the Emperor isn't too hopeful about finding the last two Primarchs.

Wait, what? Seriously? Source?

[b1soul]

I haven't read Soulforge. I'm a little skeptical after reading Deliverance lost.

 

That book made Corax seem mentally challenged. The only other Primarch that has been written so poorly was Ferris Mannus in 'Fulgrim' and we saw what happened to him. Plus the Alpha Legion pulled off a plan that Dr. Evil from Austin powers would have passed on because it was too far fetched. Over all I'd say that I hated the book.

 

But, if soulforge remakes Corax into the superhuman gene-forged being a Primarch is suppose to be then I suppose I'll put it on my reading list. As much as I like Thorpe writing warhammer fantasy books and fluff, I'd have to say I haven't been that impressed with his HH books.

 

Here here...well said my friend. I couldn't get through a third of Deliverance Lost. I ended up jumping around and thoroughly disliking what I saw

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

For example, the scene where he talks to the Emperor and the Emperor says he only has 17 brothers and when asked about the other two, His face becomes covered in sorrow and he turns away from Corax, is apparently supposed to mean that the Emperor isn't too hopeful about finding the last two Primarchs.

Wait, what? Seriously? Source?

 

The Corax thing is not an error. That's been fairly well discussed in the past, by Gav and myself, at events and in interviews etc - the Emperor's meaning has still been misunderstood by some fans, though.

 

If he was referring to the two missing primarchs, then that means Corax was the last to be found - but we know that isn't true. Therefore, he was talking about all twenty as the original brotherhood - Corax was "Number Nineteen", but the EIGHTEENTH primarch to be found, meaning that another and then Alpharius were to follow. This all works very well, and there is no confusion or contradiction there.

 

Or at least, that's the impression I get from

 

'Yes, you have brothers,' said the Emperor, smiling at his son's delight. 'Seventeen of them. You are the primarchs, my finest creations.'

 

'Seventeen?' Corvus asked, confused. 'I remember that I was number nineteen. How can that be so?'

 

The Emperor's expression grew bleak, filled with deep sorrow. He looked away as he replied.

 

'The other two,' he said. 'That is a conversation for another day.'

 

from pages 247 to 248 of Deliverance Lost combined with Laurie Goulding's post.

[Conn Eremon]

Ah. Well that settles the confusion around that scene rather favorably.

 

Man, I really need get involved with that board. I created an account last year and asked an admin if I could advertise the Guilliman Heresy and inspire some discussions, but after getting approval I never followed through with it. Too bad it's not mobile-friendly.

[Kol Saresk]

Yep. Sadly it was another premise that had a shaky execution.

[Conn Eremon]

Indeed. I just hoped they let him lock in Raven Guard as his baby, because shaky executions is kind of his thing, and not in a cool GRR Martin kind of way.

[Marshal Goderic]

 

*snip

Cormac mostly hit up the points I had with it, but I also feel the need to elaborate.

 

The premise is that the Alpha Legion are capable enough that they can infiltrate a Legion with no problem.

 

We do not see this. Instead we see people who are constantly blowing their cover by forgetting Raven Guard doctrine and mentality. But it's just overwritten as battle trauma by the very brothers who went through the exact same thing and didn't have a problem.

 

The premise is that the Raven Guard are so blinded by hate that they miss the small details. We do not see this.

 

Instead we see paranoia and distrust running rampant and allowing entire battleships to sail only a scant few meters right over the tops of their heads.

 

We see the premise that we're going to go back to the days following the Massacre that Corax was willing to do anything and everything to rebuild his Legion into a fighting force.

 

We sort of see that. Corax imposes limits and when things go wrong, instead of pushing forward like the IA articles gave the impression of, he stopped altogether. The hate and revilement that the Raven Guard were supposed to be filled with just... It ran hollow.

 

A lot of the premises just didn't pan out.

 

And apparently, the author wanted to get more than a few things across and didn't. For example, the scene where he talks to the Emperor and the Emperor says he only has 17 brothers and when asked about the other two, His face becomes covered in sorrow and he turns away from Corax, is apparently supposed to mean that the Emperor isn't too hopeful about finding the last two Primarchs.

 

There were a lot of great premises and ideas. They just didn't pan out.

Thanks dude great reply and it helped me clarify what I was thinking & that is this; "We do not see this. Instead we see people who are constantly blowing their cover by forgetting Raven Guard doctrine and mentality. But it's just overwritten as battle trauma by the very brothers who went through the exact same thing and didn't have a problem." exactly the fallacy that I was supposing people were falling victim to, has anyone considered this; battle trauma-ish-ness yes but when reading this we gotta remember that we aren't in 40k any more where the cover blowing ideas WOULD totally give someone away and get them stomped etc but this is 30k where genetic standards for marines are more lax (think ADB Talos) along with training, doctrine, everything, (not super lax, just more so than the 'refined' 40k chapters), this is 30k where they are still conquering the galaxy, have literally a hundred times more marines, and have a stupidly high attrition rate (at times not every battle), think for a sec if any chapter in 40k had the numbers of casualties that legion operations sometimes took then the chapter would be wiped out. As time progressed the role of the space marines changed not to mention the legions were disbanded and divided into chapters and with that I believe you can see each chapter takes a more involved role in its new recruits and current marines. Less resources = more value, more resources (like during the great crusade) = less valued. Hopefully that gets my point across clearly, thanks again for the great reply.

 

"The premise is that the Alpha Legion are capable enough that they can infiltrate a Legion with no problem." - facial bone resculpting surgery, face stealing and 'brain eaten knowledge' is slightly more than no problem in my eyes & as soon as the RG did know/suspect they purged their ranks. Plus it's the AL, the master infiltrators, if anyone could do it they could. (think of that last statement as a reflection on their place/role/archetype in the overall setting)

 

"The premise is that the Raven Guard are so blinded by hate that they miss the small details. We do not see this." do I just not know RG that well b/c I have not heard of this premise aside from marines hate everything...? & I agree I didn't/don't' see it, unless this can help explain the 'cover-blowing misses'

 

The lost legions reference - yeah not done that well but they only ever do like two sentences in a book at max on that subject so for me it was par for the course.

 

Corax pushing to rebuild despite the consequences/not happening - disappointing but IIRC this isn't the only time a HH book went a different direction than the old IA articles, so yeah if one happens to be a big RG fan than I could see it being more than disappointing, like me thinking that Prospero Burns would be about the Battle of Prospero & raging when it wasn't.

 

Wade - points have already been answered other than the WB smashing - no clue on that & poorly done since no one understands that course of action.

 

So kinda summary, most didn't like it because it wasn't raven guard-y enough/didn't stay true to the old legion ideals as established by previous fluff? I guess I liked it so much more because perhaps I didn't have such high standards for the RG to begin with (I picked u the book thinking, 'cool, finally get to read about this legion and expand upon the "nevermore" quote that is stuck everywhere they are mentioned. Plus the Legionnaire's perspective was a welcome surprise I thought

[Kol Saresk]

Yes and no. We only see the Alphariuses suffering from the theorized battle trauma. The "battle trauma" would be easily explainable if we saw other real Raven Guard suffering from it, then yeah, sure. If we saw some of the real Raven Guard trying to implement different fighting styles, then yeah, sure. But instead we only see Alphariuses introducing the moves while the Raven Guard are just okay with it.

 

True, 30K Astartes aren't as paranoid as 40K Astartes. But the Raven Guard(especially the Massacre survivors) are constantly portrayed as being super paranoid.

 

But the premises tie into each other. Look at Face of Treachery. Perfect infiltration. No blunders whatsoever.

 

Now look at Deliverance Lost.

 

"what kind of idiot lives something this valuable defenseless?"

"Remember our doctrines. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there."

"Oh, uh, yeah. Sire. I knew that. I just took a bump on the head."

 

In the sparring ring

"Son, why aren't you fighting like a Raven Guard?"

"Uh, I uh, I saw a Word Bearer do this."

"Right on man."

 

That's the thing. We see how the Alpha Legion had memories ripped from corpses and implanted in their heads and how they ate Astartes brain-matter to absorb the RG's instincts and muscle memory.

 

But we don't see any of it. Instead we see Alpha Legion who are supposed to be so good at infiltrating blubbering along and constantly making mistakes and the paranoid-portrayed Raven Guard just overlooking it as battle-trauma. Granted, since it was only a small number experiencing it and only we the readers were aware that it was only the Alphariuses "suffering from the trauma", I can see how that might escape the in-universe character(s)'s attention.

 

But in a way, that's the problem. The books aren't written for the Lord Commander who just got put in charge of the recruits. They're written for us. So it's just kind of anti-climatic when we(as a general term) see something that could be very interesting just kind of tripping along by the grace of the Creator not creating a character who noticed.