Betrayer. Thoughts, queries, equestions. Spoilers, duh.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

The thing about war is nothing is impossible, some things are highly unlikely but in the end anything can (and history has proven it WILL) happen.

 

In the Balkans, the Serbs brought down a modern stealth aircraft with basic tech and an AA battery. The first Tiger taken out by the Brits was knocked out by a Churchill mounting a 6pdr gun. History is full of random, crazy events.

[betrayer41]

The thing about war is nothing is impossible, some things are highly unlikely but in the end anything can (and history has proven it WILL) happen.

 

In the Balkans, the Serbs brought down a modern stealth aircraft with basic tech and an AA battery. The first Tiger taken out by the Brits was knocked out by a Churchill mounting a 6pdr gun. History is full of random, crazy events.

AND those guys didn't even have the butchers nails.....so kudos to them

[Kol Saresk]

Wolves on an elk might be more appropriate.

I gave the Ultramarines some credit since they did have some artillery for all the good it didn't do.

[Wade Garrett]

The romans used their velites and exploited gaps in the plalanx to destroy it. They did not simply charge it over and over.

And how do you think those gaps were created? By Roman forces crashing headfirst into the phalanx multiple times.

 

And there were multiple charges...Aemilius's son in law lost his sword in the fighting, ran along the ranks summoning his friends to help him recover it, they attacked the section of the phalanx where the sword was lost, recovered it, then attacked the Macedonians AGAIN, singing.

 

The commander of a contingent of allied Pelignians threw his standard into the middle of the phalanx to inspire his men to go forward, and got terribly mauled for his presumption.

 

Pydna was a nose to nose brawl as nasty as anything Angron ever partook of, and it ended with the vaunted phalanx shattered.

[Captain Idaho]

It doesn't really matter if there are real world examples of Shield Walls being over come. World Eaters are about as close to Gauls or whatever berserkers who you can find who fought the Roman Empire, as a bear is to a wolf.

[Phoros]

Unfortunately, with the "pre-Chaos" Legions in the Horus Heresy series, with the Imperial Armour books about the Red Corsairs, and perhaps even with the past few Chaos Codices, a lot of that "hell dimension" theme has been downplayed.

 

Well... yeah. Why would the World Eaters be unthinking monsters from a hell dimension when the Word Bearers are the only ones with any real understanding of the fact that said hell dimension exists?

The point is that we're seeing them just before they tip over the edge and plunge rapidly INTO becoming these hellberzerkers that you're talking about. Why should one, and only one, out of all of the 18 Legions that make up the players in the Horus Heresy be limited to angry mooks with no personality to be killed off by the "good guys"?

[Legatus]

Phoros: Because the notion I was replying to was one of regret that the World Eaters were about to be turned into crazed berserkers, which would mean we would then be having the Khorne World Eaters we know, but in turn would no longer get a lot of dialogues and internal perspectives from them.

[A D-B]

best part of the book for me was after The world eaters led by Khârn Crash into the wall of shielded Ultras.....they take their beating lose men like the WE always do....then right before the nails truly kick in Khârn snarls ....."Our Turn"...... ing AWESOME

That scene realistically was bull:cuss i dont care how angry you get its impossible to break a shieldwall on anger alone.

Because shieldwalls have never been broken by charging people right?

Besides, who cares, they're Astartes! You try holding back a small walking tank running as fast as a motorcycle on the highway!

Physics man, physics!

Shieldwalls are broken by missile troops uneven terrain or if the opponent has a huge numerical advantage . As long as the numbers are relatively even your not breaking a well maintained shieldwall simply by charging it.

There is a reason why shieldwalls in one form or another survied until the 1800s.

And both "missile troops" and "numerical advantage" were used in that exact scene, as it happens. As noted several times above.

Incidentally, with the greatest respect, shield-walls did indeed break through attrition. See: any historical example of shield-walls. And you missed the best example of breaking a shield-wall, which was by flanking cavalry.

Also, I'm not sure you're really grasping what "breaking" a shield-wall really was in physical context. It's like a dam - it's monumentally difficult to tear a hole in one but once it's broken, if it's not sealed almost immediately, you're basically screwed. Making that first breach is what counts, and overwhelming numbers of physically stronger warriors pulling the shields out of your hands while grenades blow up around your boots is, sadly, very much going to do the trick.

Don't get me wrong, if it had just been "They were angry" then I'd agree, it'd have been nonsense. But it's plainly just part of a wider context, and I'm not going to qualify everything that happens with "And then they did X, but Y was also a factor, and so was Z, and it wasn't unfair because of A, and it wasn't unbalanced because of B" when that stuff's already made clear in the description elsewhere.

Hate a scene? Absolutely. All good. Invent an alternate version of the scene and blame the author? Bad juju.

[betrayer41]

Well regardless it's my favorite book by far as my name implies and i loved that scene, being able to image wave after wave of WE crashing against shields and finally busting it wide open

[Prot]

I wanted to post about this book as soon as I read it but as usual my wonderful attention span kicked in and I missplaced my draft thoughts on the book (yes I make note of these things!).

 

First off you guys all have made great posts, and great thoughts about the book but some other things did 'pop' for me. I don't know how much -new- I can add to the excellent commentary thus far, but here's some raw stuff that stuck with me, but first... and obviously at this point there are some serious SPOILERS if you haven't read it:

 

1. Originally I absolutely despised Lorgar and felt him unworthy of Primarch status. But like most crazy tyrants, he started off looking quite feeble and amassed enough knowledge and support around him to almost make himself look good. That's a bit tongue and cheek but suffice to say imo he went from 'whiny wanna-be' to holding all the cards which I think is very cool.

 

2. Argel Tal. Obviously a total gem of a character.... the proof is how much he is debated, and loved/hated in this very thread. Me? I loved him because he felt like the 'reluctant traitor' (if there is such a thing).  Oh I'm sure he knew quite well what he was doing, but when your boss tells you to take one for the team, and you're a good soldier... that's just what you do. (Tell me that you weren't praying for him to tear Erebus' little weasel head off too... I dare you.)

 

3. World Eaters. How many other authors could have pulled off this portrayal? Seriously. I kiss no one's arse, but this is a ball that wasn't easy to carry. The sadness is I believe this novel -might- be the only historic point for World Eaters that gave us so much. Authors change projects, people move on. I see others still will struggle to make us -understand- the World Eaters.  On a side note I have loved playing these guys but I even struggled with identifying with them as a character, and as an army until this novel. Now Kharne is in ALL my lists, and no he isn't just a mental case running into brick walls (in my games at least)!

 

4. Angron. Specifically Angron. What a story. We all knew it before hand, and how could this have a happy ending? This is the result of a total $%*^ life and circumstances completely drowning a man in endless pit of despair.

 

  4b) Angron relating to Guilliman. Wow... just wow. I too have a brother that got everything, and had a golden path set before him while I was left to fend for myself. I could completely relate to this relationship, I lived it.

 

  4c) Angron relating the 'victory' he had over Leman Russ. Wow again.... I don't know what was better, the story Angron told? Or the story Lorgar reflected back to him? One of my favorite moments in the book.

 

 4d) Angron's reluctance to be 'saved'. A twisted soul with some hint of clarity. And in those moments he accepts what he is and really as arrogant as most of the Primarchs come off, Angron nearly despises himself as much as the 'loyalists' might.

 

I always love how this author gives us real insight, and character from the main Primarchs while others feel it necessary to hide that part of the story and drown us in obscure characters who relate the story second hand, or tell the tale of how they shot their brother for the first time. Sorry I'm just done with that stuff....

 

I have a friend who I cannot convince to read anymore Heresy novels. He says they don't actually 'tell you anything' and he's right to a degree. I convinced him to read this one, and he reluctantly borrowed the book and he's all over it now.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Wolves on an elk might be more appropriate.

I gave the Ultramarines some credit since they did have some artillery for all the good it didn't do.

To be fair their plan with the artillery was tactically sound. I mean you face any other legion with a shield wall they will keep their distance and punch holes with grenades and missiles before charging in to those holes. The artillery herded the W E straight into the Ultras blades and bolters unprepaired, yes because of the nails or whatever they won but we are never given a tally on how many men they lost in the process. I mean the Ultramarines knew they were loosing at that point, or, atleast that there was a good chance of it but if they could break one whole company against their shields before they died then there was more chance of their brothers defeating them down the line.

best part of the book for me was after The world eaters led by Khârn Crash into the wall of shielded Ultras.....they take their beating lose men like the WE always do....then right before the nails truly kick in Khârn snarls ....."Our Turn"...... ing AWESOME

That scene realistically was bull:cuss i dont care how angry you get its impossible to break a shieldwall on anger alone.

Because shieldwalls have never been broken by charging people right?

Besides, who cares, they're Astartes! You try holding back a small walking tank running as fast as a motorcycle on the highway!

Physics man, physics!

Shieldwalls are broken by missile troops uneven terrain or if the opponent has a huge numerical advantage . As long as the numbers are relatively even your not breaking a well maintained shieldwall simply by charging it.

There is a reason why shieldwalls in one form or another survied until the 1800s.

And both "missile troops" and "numerical advantage" were used in that exact scene, as it happens. As noted several times above.

Incidentally, with the greatest respect, shield-walls did indeed break through attrition. See: any historical example of shield-walls. And you missed the best example of breaking a shield-wall, which was by flanking cavalry.

Also, I'm not sure you're really grasping what "breaking" a shield-wall really was in physical context. It's like a dam - it's monumentally difficult to tear a hole in one but once it's broken, if it's not sealed almost immediately, you're basically screwed. Making that first breach is what counts, and overwhelming numbers of physically stronger warriors pulling the shields out of your hands while grenades blow up around your boots is, sadly, very much going to do the trick.

Don't get me wrong, if it had just been "They were angry" then I'd agree, it'd have been nonsense. But it's plainly just part of a wider context, and I'm not going to qualify everything that happens with "And then they did X, but Y was also a factor, and so was Z, and it wasn't unfair because of A, and it wasn't unbalanced because of B" when that stuff's already made clear in the description elsewhere.

Hate a scene? Absolutely. All good. Invent an alternate version of the scene and blame the author? Bad juju.

I don't think anyone on this thread would allow anyone to 'blame the author', Sire

I wanted to post about this book as soon as I read it but as usual my wonderful attention span kicked in and I missplaced my draft thoughts on the book (yes I make note of these things!).

First off you guys all have made great posts, and great thoughts about the book but some other things did 'pop' for me. I don't know how much -new- I can add to the excellent commentary thus far, but here's some raw stuff that stuck with me, but first... and obviously at this point there are some serious SPOILERS if you haven't read it:

1. Originally I absolutely despised Lorgar and felt him unworthy of Primarch status. But like most crazy tyrants, he started off looking quite feeble and amassed enough knowledge and support around him to almost make himself look good. That's a bit tongue and cheek but suffice to say imo he went from 'whiny wanna-be' to holding all the cards which I think is very cool.

2. Argel Tal. Obviously a total gem of a character.... the proof is how much he is debated, and loved/hated in this very thread. Me? I loved him because he felt like the 'reluctant traitor' (if there is such a thing). Oh I'm sure he knew quite well what he was doing, but when your boss tells you to take one for the team, and you're a good soldier... that's just what you do. (Tell me that you weren't praying for him to tear Erebus' little weasel head off too... I dare you.)

I still despise Lorgar... yes he has 'changed' as everyone is so fond of saying but he's still the second on my list of the Emperors sons I would like to see take a good kicking... or a few more plasma shots to the face. For me the best part about Lorgars portrayal in this book and Butchers Nails is Angrons reaction to him. I still laugh aloud every time I hear the lines 'That was just it he [Angron] had never expected his brother to grow a backbone.' or 'perhaps you should have thought about that before sending countless thousands into the meat grinder at Calth! There is still time to recall them, they might just hear you SHOUTING FROM THE MORAL HIGH GROUND!!!' pretty sure thats right... I may be a few words off.

I was praying for him to break Erebus but I think that's the scene when I decided that Raum was awesome. I loved Erebus' confusion when he gets called 'Deciever' and all the while their talking the Daemon is like 'LET US KILL HIM' ok I was a little worried I was in agreement with a warp creature but it passed haha

[daveNYC]

It is somewhat worrisome that even Raum was coming off as a somewhat likable character.  At least it comes off as far more likable than the posessing daemon in the Mark of Calth.

[Prot]

I wanted to post about this book as soon as I read it but as usual my wonderful attention span kicked in and I missplaced my draft thoughts on the book (yes I make note of these things!).

First off you guys all have made great posts, and great thoughts about the book but some other things did 'pop' for me. I don't know how much -new- I can add to the excellent commentary thus far, but here's some raw stuff that stuck with me, but first... and obviously at this point there are some serious SPOILERS if you haven't read it:

1. Originally I absolutely despised Lorgar and felt him unworthy of Primarch status. But like most crazy tyrants, he started off looking quite feeble and amassed enough knowledge and support around him to almost make himself look good. That's a bit tongue and cheek but suffice to say imo he went from 'whiny wanna-be' to holding all the cards which I think is very cool.

2. Argel Tal. Obviously a total gem of a character.... the proof is how much he is debated, and loved/hated in this very thread. Me? I loved him because he felt like the 'reluctant traitor' (if there is such a thing). Oh I'm sure he knew quite well what he was doing, but when your boss tells you to take one for the team, and you're a good soldier... that's just what you do. (Tell me that you weren't praying for him to tear Erebus' little weasel head off too... I dare you.)

I still despise Lorgar... yes he has 'changed' as everyone is so fond of saying but he's still the second on my list of the Emperors sons I would like to see take a good kicking... or a few more plasma shots to the face. For me the best part about Lorgars portrayal in this book and Butchers Nails is Angrons reaction to him. I still laugh aloud every time I hear the lines 'That was just it he [Angron] had never expected his brother to grow a backbone.' or 'perhaps you should have thought about that before sending countless thousands into the meat grinder at Calth! There is still time to recall them, they might just hear you SHOUTING FROM THE MORAL HIGH GROUND!!!' pretty sure thats right... I may be a few words off.

I was praying for him to break Erebus but I think that's the scene when I decided that Raum was awesome. I loved Erebus' confusion when he gets called 'Deciever' and all the while their talking the Daemon is like 'LET US KILL HIM' ok I was a little worried I was in agreement with a warp creature but it passed haha

Actually I totally agree with you. But this is the way a lot of 'fearless' leaders operate, and I think ADB has done a good job of progressing the character. The other Primarchs seem quite... static in development. Oh trust me, I'd love to kick Lorgar in the 'brown eye of terror'. I love the quote you dug up. I forgot about that.

It is somewhat worrisome that even Raum was coming off as a somewhat likable character. At least it comes off as far more likable than the posessing daemon in the Mark of Calth.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Or something like that.... I think we all wanted to see Raum convince Argal Tal to give an old school, possessed style, butt whoopin' to Erebus.

[daveNYC]

Yeah, Erebus is remarkably loathsome.  He's a combination of smug, evil, not overly bright, and he put serious skill points into mustache twirling.

 

The worst part about it is that we know that things are going to work out OK for him in the end because he's still kicking it in 40k.  So here's this completely unlikable character who has plot armor.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, Erebus is remarkably loathsome. He's a combination of smug, evil, not overly bright, and he put serious skill points into mustache twirling.

 

The worst part about it is that we know that things are going to work out OK for him in the end because he's still kicking it in 40k. So here's this completely unlikable character who has plot armor.

And that's why he can hate him. Because he can take it. He's the villain we deserve, but not the one we need. He's our nemesis, the bane of our existence. He's Destiny's Hand.

[depthcharge12]

Raum was a wierd one, I will admit to liking him too and he doesn't come across as a daemon who wants to destroy the mortal plane as we know it.

 

 

Seems kinda like the chap you would ask to help you move, share a beer with, and hate on Erebus.

[Wade Garrett]

Raum was trying to drive Argel Tal to rip out Cyrene's eyes, tongue and teeth and eat them in The First Heretic.

 

Kor Phaeron doesn't like Erebus either, but I wouldn't invite him to my daughter's wedding.

[Kol Saresk]

Raum is like Angron. Keep him on a leash. Otherwise, point, say "fetch" and steer clear until he's done.

[daveNYC]

Raum was trying to drive Argel Tal to rip out Cyrene's eyes, tongue and teeth and eat them in The First Heretic.

 

Kor Phaeron doesn't like Erebus either, but I wouldn't invite him to my daughter's wedding.

 

Though Raum would still be higher on the invite list than Kor.  That guy would just stand around being annoying, Raum would probably get out there on the dance floor, party with the musicians, try and eat the in-laws, you know, just the normal things that happen at weddings.

 

Maybe spending 40 some years in a mortal body can 'mellow' a daemon out a bit.

[Visitor13]

If we're talking weddings, Kargos and Skane must be on the list of invitations. Also Orfeo, the trash-talking Ultramarine. "This is not an axe, Khârn." Loved that guy to bits (and so did Angron).

[Wade Garrett]

"Then I accept your surrender."

 

That clanging you hear when the Legatus of Armatura walks by isn't just his power armor.

[Kais Klip]

Yeah what's with Orfeo and the WB ship "Orfeo's Lament"?

[Kol Saresk]

Its a conspiracy. The Word Bearers are the original infiltrators.

[karden00]

K guys, for this one, I went to the top. 

 

the whole idea that WE could break an UM formation is pure nonsense. As is much of the rest of the book, for example, when Angron takes on Orpheo after that gallant warrior showed Khârn what his business was about.

 

Exhibit a) It is likely the Traitors would have attacked elsewhere had they known even a single full Ultramarine was present

 

Exhibit b) . "The Traitors threw numerous Titans, daemons, and even the two Primarchs at them, but all was for naught, for Thiel had repented of the sin of placing his own wisedom above that of Roboute Guilliman and conducted his defense strictly according the precepts of the Codex Astartes" - clearly, when using Ultramarine Battle-skills, no traitor unit can overcome a XIIIth position. Traitor-Primarchs? Not on your life. 

 

Exhibit c) Angron and Lorgar were so awestruck and terrified by this feat they fell to their knees and begged their dark gods to save them by transporting them somewhere safer, like directly in front of the defenses at Terra  - Does this sound like the kind of team that could do the impossible and break an UM formation? I dont think so.

 

In summation: Guys, seriously. These debates would be over much more quickly if you just went and read your Wade Garrett. If you knew how things actually happen when the UM's are involved, you wouldnt have to go through so many hoops to come to the logical...logistical conclusion: The WE and WB only went to Macragge to try their luck at the Ultramarines recruiting stations scattered about the 500 worlds. Only when they realized they could never be blue did they start throwing a temper tantrum. And look where that got them. 

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Raum is like Angron. Keep him on a leash. Otherwise, point, say "fetch" and steer clear until he's done.

Cause that worked out so well for the Highriders, brother.